Tags
casual sex, commitment, courtship, dating, divorce, feminism, marriage, red pill, relationships
The other day I called to check in on a friend who is considering a divorce in hopes that things were taking a turn for the better. But when she started to tell me about “the list” my heart sank.
I know a lot of women think “the list” is the way to go when their marriage (or life partner or whatever term you want to insert) hits choppy waters, but I think it’s a bad strategy and here’s why — men don’t like it when you try to change them or tell them how it’s going to be. Men don’t like “lists.”
Case in point, when I told a male friend about her “list” he launched into a tale of his own experience with his (now ex) wife making “the list.” First her list was a half a page. Then the list was a full page. Then two pages. And soon, the list sounded like a scroll that was a half mile long. And as I listened to how he reacted to “the list” I could see he did what most men in this situation do, anything but “the list.” She may as well have been making him a list of how to push her buttons!
Not to say a woman should not have boundaries and standards. She should. And those should be established early on, your personal non-negotiables, in the dating stage. Those boundaries and standards will vary from woman to woman, but may I suggest at a minimum he is a good man, who believes in fidelity, who has his act together, who is mature, who is wise with money, who has made good life choices, who shares your views and values, who treats you with honor and respect, who gives you serious butterflies, who you think so much of you want to be a better person and to also bring your “A game” to the table, not because he’s asking, but because you are giving and working for it.
A gal in the dating phase should not try to change a man. If after a few dates she determines he is not already these things listed above, plus her personal non-negotiables, someone she would marry gladly and without hesitation, the best choice is to cut loose early and before her heart clouds her judgement. Sticking it out early on is a mistake. Sticking it out early on or trying to make it work then can lead her to the alter with a bad match, and that is not a good thing.
Dating is not just something a gal does for fun, it’s the time a girl should be paying close attention to who and what he is, how he acts, what choices he makes, how he views the world, what his values are, what his worldview is, how he treats her, how he respects her boundaries and limits, how he reacts when he is unhappy with her, how he approaches conflict, if there is strong attraction on both sides, how he treats others, who his family and friends are, will he be a good provider and protector, and so on.
When dating used to be called “courtship” that was the purpose of dating and everyone knew it — she was spending time with him to screen him with one purpose in mindΒ — to find her future husband. That was the goal of courtship. Today, women who are marriage minded would be wise to readopt this approach to dating rather than to just go with the flow. (Side note: in the courtship model he had already determined before courting her that he considered her as a future wife. Men did not court ladies “for fun” then either.)
Why is it wise for a woman to think of dating as courtship? Because it’s how a woman figures out his “frame” and what stepping into his world would look like. That is a woman’s choice, to step into the frame or not. Once she’s committed to the relationship, and especially once married, choosing the frame is no longer an option. It then is about living within the frame. His frame. A wife who wants a happy marriage will remember this. Even when the frame is not what she wants. (Note: Obviously I am not talking about enduring abuse, infidelity, or rampant and unacknowledged addiction. I am talking about where they will live, how they will live, how that will work, what their shared values and goals as a couple will be, how money will be spent, how children will be raised, how frequent sex will be, and so on. If he is a good mate, he will consider her wants and needs but in the end he as the Captain, the leader, and the guide, will make the call. When she choses wisely and well, she does not need to fear his decisions will not be the best for them both.)
(The goal of this blog is to advise women, not men, but as I know women will be wondering what his role in this is and need to recognize it when they see it, I am including that here.)Β He needs to remember this frame-owning too, and work to set the frame and hold it. A man who lets his woman set the frame sets up a dynamic that leads to a lack of respect and conflict ahead. If he chooses wisely, he will have to be mindful of owning the frame, but won’t have to battle royal with her for it on a daily basis, although he may from time to time have to make corrections is she does start to try. She is wise to make sure he already gets this, as it is not really something a woman can teach a man. He’s already got to have good frame control, to see himself as the able Captain seeking a First Officer.
And what is her role, as a good wife? From what I have heard men say they seek, she is to support and honor her husband, be an enthusiastic partner in bed, to be faithful to him alone, to follow not lead, raise their children, run their home on a day to day basis providing nurturing and sustenance, carefully manage her responsibilities and not make choices that endanger the stability of her family, and to put her relationship with him above all else in importance.
So while a woman should not be so picky that no man could ever make it through her courtship screening, she should be mindful to choose wisely and choose well. She’s choosing who she is going to hand the reigns of her life over to, who she will stand by through thick and thin, who she is going to be there with through riches and poorness, through better and worse, in sickness and health, promising to love, honor, and obey, to be faithful only onto him, till death do they part.
That is a big, big, big decision ladies. The difference between a lifetime of more happiness and fun than misery and suffering, not that there won’t be hard times but when she chooses well and wisely, it will be more easy times than hard times.
She is not choosing someone who is “almost” what she wants, who will be that with a little “tweaking,” or who she will respect as Captain as long as he follows “the list.” I know this may sound pretty antiquated to the modern gal, but that is exactly what today’s feminist-led views on marriage in our society have taught and with half of all marriages ending in divorce, I would not place my odds on that model. That experiment is failing, and failing miserably.
The time to have a list is going in, not on the way out. If you find yourself making a list on the way out, it may be time to humble yourself and think of how you can inspire him to make it work, not to force him to. It’s time for some feminine wiles used in the best of ways — to sustain and strengthen her love relationship not to manipulate it unfairly by issuing ultimatums and demands.
Let those who have ears hear.
But what will the woman bring the marriage besides her Magic Plumbing ™? I see nothing here about those things.
Very good point, I will add that. Thanks! Feel free to also add that, from a male point of view, if you like!
How’s this? “And what is her role, as a good wife? From what I have heard men say they seek, she is to support and honor her husband, follow not lead, raise their children, run their home on a day to day basis providing nurturing and sustenance, carefully managing her responsibilities and not making choices that endanger the stability of her family, , and be an enthusiastic partner in bed.” Feel free to add or comment! I am all ears.
Beyond the typos and subject verb agreement and such I just noticed (cringe), I mean! I will fix those!
Yep. If she needs a list then she needs a different guy.
I would move “be an enthusiastic partner in bed” to follow “support and honor”. Children should be secondary to the husband.
Agreed! Too many women choose poorly, thinking “the list” will make it right. It will not. Thanks for adding that! Good to see you again π
So noted, will do! I also added after enthusiastic in bed, to be faithful to him and him alone.
Redpillgirlnotes,
Your friend is trying to restructure the relationship to revolve around her dominance by stting her own frame. This isn’t going to work. Even if her husband complies, she’ll lose respect.
What bothers me is that all the institutions support defacto feminine dominance. My outlook for marriage is turning bleak.
I know fuzzie, it’s hard to see the good when there is bad all around. But remember, the tiniest bit of light displaces darkness, no amount of darkness can quell a tiny light. Good is infinitely more powerful, even if bad seems impossible to overcome, it isn’t. Two good people together? Then the light is amplified tenfold, hundredfold, infinity. That is the beauty of the good fight! π Don’t give up! Please don’t!
And also agreed, her trying to own the frame is a big mistake. She wasn’t listening then but maybe some I said will take root in time. I hope so.
Redpillgirlnotes,
Maybe a bear video to lighten the mood.
I’ll never shop there again!
Cute! π
Courting is key.
The one girl that impresses me now is Jewish, An Educated Princess from a Well to family. Early 20s.
However, as pointed out before in the Mano-sphere, she is mysterious in this courting regard as it has cooled over time.
Truly, I know little about her.
And she may not care about how much I dis like this.
I am a being based in trust.
Perhaps I am the fool.
But I think she follows the GPS on my phone and shows up randomly in my life at the strangest moments.
But its probably just my imagination.
This article is spot on.
MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Courting means nothing if the woman is not chaste and if she is not chaperoned by a male family member any time she travels outside the house.
Call it a body guard or a virtual chastity belt.
It creates an impression.
Forgive the typos.
Thanks for adding that, good points there and good luck with the lady!
Wow, your the first person in the mano-sphere that responded to me. Is it just my imagination but are most of the guys in the mano-click Beta and lower on the scale?
Fuzzie has the right of it. Its about control. The more insecure a person is, the more they want to control the world around them, and women are insecure, but the measure of control never brings them any joy or happiness either.
Good is dumb, most often done out of weakness and loses all the time. Platitudes sound nice but are useless
Agreed scfton! Good to see you are alive and well π
No worries, I am notorious about typos as well, and I have an English degree! I just type too fast… I am not sure of the makeup of the manosphere as far as alpha/beta. I think in general our society pushes men from childhood toward being meek and mild, not to get dirty or play with toy guns or trucks (and women are also encouraged to not play girl games), and I think this has created a lot of gender confusion in the US, to the detriment of both men and women. Women acting like men, men acting like women, it’s all backward but hopefully discussion such as these will lead to positive change where boys can be boys and girls can be girls and everyone gets over it! Keep us posted on the lady!
I’m good darling, just been busy with work and weekend party prep. Now I’m relaxing by my smoker with the interwebz and a jar of ice cold apple pie
Hello Redpill:
Its when ever she is ready.
My instincts tell me it may be another man but not likely.
She easily could have married a millionaire’s son by now.
She’s hot and rich!
I think she just wants her first big acting gig.
Then maybe I might hear more from her.
Or not.
And to be honest.
Im still a little wild myself.
Woo hoo!
I think the manosphere is mostly betas.
Im 40 and I still got a little bit of that boys play with trucks phase and so did most of my friends.
Gen Y was really the beggining of all that.
Im easily X.
I think Alphas get shunned in the manosphere except for maybe PUAs that want to talk strategy.
Cheers! Have a great weekend.
I see. I have to admit I am not as familiar with Jewish courtship rituals. Are you also Jewish? I do have a friend whose father fell in love in college with a Jewish woman whose family was very wealthy (like magnate wealthy) and her parents forbid the marriage, him being non Jewish and not wealthy. He went on to work his way from entry level to a VP position in an aerospace company. They ran across each other 25+ years later, both having married, had families, and divorced, and they are today happily married! I truly believe if something is meant to be, it will work out. Good luck!
I am not Jewish but most people in my social circle know I am Jewish Friendly. Really, to be honest, we are both crossing significant social lines, but we have similar goals and aspirations. Its kind of a cool story actually.
Looking back I met her dad years ago in the steam room at our health club. His wife (her mother) is in the same profession that I am. I am very unique demographically in my community and people take notice. And I would dare say I have a reputation for be financially successful in innovative ways. I think the family actually found me attractive. I would constantly ask her out, she would say yes, then blow me off. Then I would be pissed and I would blow her off and back and forth.
When we both met I was struggling somewhat financially. Which did cause some concerns. One time, I really was chasing after her and she mentioned her dad would not like it. The “Alpha” (I hate that term, have to think of a new one) came out of me and I basically said: “Hook up with me anyway. It will be our little secret.” She looked shocked and said: “Ohhh its no secret!” Then she showed me that she still had my number in her phone. I was still pissed.
Little did most people know, I had worked my way out of my financial bind and latter on I think her Dad actually felt bad. Things calmed down. Then, strangely enough, I began to see as good as she is, I’ve got options. So does she. I live in So Cal, pretty guy friendly down here.
Here is the reason why I am even still thinking about her:
I actually changed work out spots because the population at the one where I met her was a married older crowd as well as for other reasons. It caused a little stir. Changing work out clubs is like changing religions.
I changed clubs about a year and a half ago. So I figured I would never see her again. Low and behold a year latter I saw her walking past me in my new work out club! I called her over and she explained that she had left my old work out club (about the same time that I did) joined my current work out club (its a high end chain) and moved out of her parent’s house to live in Hollywood to really try to get her acting career moving.
Hmmmmmmmmm…………Very Interesting Timing.
At that point I broke. I told her basically that I envied her carefree life style and I thought she was awesome.
So I think people I think it boils down to she isn’t pressed. Really, I am really shocked that she was so attracted at all.
Fun times!
Is there a way to contact you privately?
I don’t see how a man will interpret the list as anything other than an ultimatum. Starting a list will put him in an adversarial relationship with his wife, and how long he can stay will be decided by patience (or masochism), willingness to change, and the collective strength of the demands.
In the Manosphere we talk about “outer game” (technique) and “inner game” (character/growth). In this context I might add a third category called “auto game” (habit). A lot of those list items may on the surface appear to be bad habits, but dig down a little deeper and you’re probably seeing inner game flaws that the man needs to work on himself. The easier ones can be fixed with a determined change of state, but the harder ones will take the man a longer time span to consciously effect personal growth.
If a wife helps a man nurture his personal growth throughout the marriage, not just when annoying habits spring up, she may seldom if ever find a need to compile a list.