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androgeny, attraction, beauty, career, dating, feminine, femininity, feminism, masculine, red pill, relationships, sexism, working girl
As someone who grew up in a post-feminist world, I didn’t think much about many of the messages myself and other women were being told but just accepted them as truths, just like I accepted the sky was blue.
However now that I am older and starting to question these beliefs I think one place where feminism really threw the baby out with the bathwater was with the notion that feminine traits were weakness and to be avoided.
I now question if in one fell swoop that type of thinking actually weakened one of women’s most powerful sources of strength, her womanliness. And it reinforced that being a woman somehow was “less” and that women who want to be taken seriously should start acting like men and avoid acting like women.
There are many examples of this message, such as the power woman pantsuit (complete with shoulder pads to give the illusion one was a linebacker) favored by the career women of the 1980s who wanted to be “taken seriously.”
Women were discouraged from wearing dresses, make up, having long hair, and the androgynous, flat chested, straight waist figures of Twiggy and pre-pubescent looking models like her that followed were deemed “better” (by feminists) than hourglass curves. To try to be or care about looking pretty was practically a crime and women who did retain feminine appearances were deemed bimbos or victims and all sorts of things.
But really, what’s “wrong” with being a woman? What’s wrong with being womanly? Wasn’t this supposed to be about choice? Why then was being a career woman in a traditionally male field suddenly the pinnacle of success while women who wanted to be mothers and homemakers were openly scorned as “less than?”
I find it interesting that men, on the other hand, (or most, anyway) didn’t seem to adopt a preference for women who acted like men. They by and large continued to prefer women being womanly. Perhaps in some weird way, this banishment of the feminine led to it almost becoming fetishized, only increasing the draw.
It’s kind of a silly story, but case in point. One time I showed up at a friend’s house party (I was about 35 or so) on Halloween but for some reason it didn’t dawn on me that it was a costume party. Everyone else was dressed up and there I was in a long sleeved t-shirt and jeans. So I dug through my friend’s closet, found a cowgirl hat and some boots, shoved two balloons in my shirt, and said I was dressed as a cowgirl with more money than sense, or in other words didn’t know when to stop when it came to breast implants. (I am medium chested naturally, but with the added balloons I was more in the Dolly Parton category.)
Everybody knew they were balloons and that it was a joke. But by golly, I was shocked to find myself the belle of the ball, even though there were gals there is sexier, skimpier, vampier costumes. Guys of all ages from their young 20s to their late 60s were tripping over themselves to fetch me a drink, open the door, and to just hover about. All night there was a circle of men around me, like moths to a flame (and yes, the gals were in a snit.) All because of two balloons stuffed under a plain long sleeved t-shirt. Wow. What?
(Interestingly, the attention didn’t seem sexual necessarily, harassing, creepy, or oppressive. It was more like admiration or adoration for lack of a better term. Like I was a goddess, or something.)
No, I didn’t go get breast implants, but that night was a very interesting lesson in the power of the feminine and the strong draw it has for the opposite power, the masculine.
So ladies, if you truly want to wear navy blue power suits, by all means. But if you are wearing them but secretly wish you could be a little more feminine but are afraid that if you do, that it will somehow diminish your power, let me argue you may just find the opposite.
If you don’t believe me, give it a try. And too bad I didn’t post this before Halloween, but if there’s ever an opportunity to put some balloons in your shirt and see what happens, as an experiment into the power of the feminine, go for it. I have a feeling you will be surprised at the results.
In short, it’s ok to be a woman. Being a woman or being womanly does not make you “less than” anything. Really. Women are great. Men are great. Men AND women can both be great. So be who you are. And if that is a feminine women (or not), by golly, go ahead!
Let those who have ears hear.
YOUR TURN: What do you think, dear readers? Do you think a woman dressing or acting feminine diminish her social power or standing? Or do you think a woman minimizing her femininity increases her odds of being taken more seriously?
Unfortunately, feminists sometimes try to use people like myself as “poster children” of feminism being correct. Newsflash: women who are gender dysphoric *don’t think of themselves as women*. So pointing to us, or even just regular tomboys, and saying “Look! They are women who enjoy working like men…let’s make that the norm for all women!”
Yeah…no.
I have a lot of respect for people like Bloom and Liz, who are strong women that know they want to embrace their domestic femininity. I may not fully understand it, and I don’t want it for myself, but arguing about personal preferences is dumb. We might as well argue about our favorite color or food.
Being a woman would not have been my choice, if I had one. But I find feminine women to be attractive, and I think being a mom should be applauded just as loudly as being a careerist. Same for men…a househusband is just as much a man as one who is a breadwinner. I’m pretty sure society would be in a better place if both sexes were able to pick their paths free from constraints of both stereotypical *and* progressive natures.
Indeed Tarn, thanks for sharing your unique perspective. I think it is great that you are who you want to be, not what society or anyone tells you to be. Because of my career and single status, in a similar way, people seem to want to push me into the “Strong Independent Women” (SIW) role, so they can point to me as a successful example of feminism. I am quick to correct them that I do what I do because I love it, not because I am seeking anyone’s approval and that I am not single by choice. I don’t want to embody someone else’s ideal, SIW or otherwise. I just want to be me.
It’s important to love yourself, whoever that may be. 🙂 I’m happy that both of us do, and neither will we allow ourselves to be called feminists when we’re not!
Exactly. And least I give the wrong impression, I am not a girly girl by any means, kind of a tomboy actually. I have also heard Liz refer to herself as the same.
This is a girl conversation. For my two cents, I’ll tos in a very popular bear video.
While feminist humor
Is a shrivilled up prune,
Some girls thank god
Don’t possess it,
At the sight of Bloom
Fun filled the room,
The girl with Razoo
Kinda dress tit
It seems the majority of us females who are Men’s Righters are…different.
You and Liz are tomboys.
I’m gender dysphoric.
Girlwriteswhat is genderqueer (so I’ve heard).
It makes sense, it a way. We aren’t part of the “hivemind” that most subscribe to.
If I had been in that room I would have joined the throng of men around you, not because of the “feminine” thing so much as it was a cheeky, fun thing for you to do. You made a hilarious statement about vanity and money and un-feminist shapeliness all at the same time.
Lol, thanks Cill! I was pretty happy with my impromptu costume idea on the fly. It was fun, and turned out to be an interesting unexpected social experiment. Fascinating, really. BTW, this is something I secretly (shhh) I like about Halloween, it’s a once a year chance to be socially inappropriate, express your alter ego, and nobody cares! I think costumes are fun, maybe I should join my local public theater group!
I was thinking of dressing up as a bear 😉
Bears form cliques
And say fun things like:
“Let’s play tricks!”
The way to get Spawny
Fair and square:
Make him get out of movies
And go as a bear!
“Let’s play tricks!”
Tarn that’s an interesting point! I was thinking more on this topic and how women are told, by women, that men won’t take feminine women seriously. Yet, how many men say the same? Indeed studies show attractive women are paid more and promoted more. Maybe it’s *women* who don’t want other attractive women around at work? Could women encouraging other women to play down their attractiveness actually be about this rather than men taking women seriously? Hummm… The red pill rabbit hole goes deeper and deeper….
What, Redpillgirlnotes,? Women would sabotage each other to indirectly advance themselves?
As the bear said, tongue in cheek.
Love it. Be who you are and piss on anyone who tries to label/box you in.
Bloom, you’re more right than you realize.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/meghancasserly/2012/04/04/girl-on-girl-crime-too-pretty-costs-you-the-job/
This thread needs a bear video.
Tarn, now isn’t THAT interesting? Hummm….
Re the Forbes study, I don’t think they mentioned what kind of jobs the resumes were being submitted for. If they were managerial or engineering or professional sales jobs, then the manager or executive to whom the job will actually report is going to give the HR people some very specific guidance as to what he wants and what he doesn’t, and finding the right people is likely going to be difficult enough that the HR person isn’t going to feel like she really has discretion to be tossing resumes based on photos, without further conversation with the hiring manager. I suspect that these are pretty low-level jobs, and that the results would likely be very different if the resumes were being sent for a VP of Sales or a Senior Mechanical Engineer opening.
David Foster
Tarn and Redpillgirlnotes,
I believe it. This is the dark side of human nature.
I don’t think it would hinder the pandas.
I know, Bloom. It’s the reason I don’t really know if women can truly be friends in the way men can. In my personal experience, it’s not possible. Are your experiences different?
Fuzzie, that’s why bears are better.
Tarnished,
Bears are better because we don’t have the least tendancy to being devious. We’re very straightforward.
My Dog and Horse are good too. So are bears, not that I’ve ever met one. Animals are seldom devious, although they can be tricky when it comes to food.
Very few Tarn. But there are some. Luckily I would rather have three trusted than 100 not.
Cull indeed! I am dog sitting a lab who is the best food nabber on the planet. The other night she ate a pan of just baked brownies in under three minutes. Luckily I had cut three for me and the kids just before that, so we at least got one each! Of course they always look at you with such apologetic sad eyes after, brownies carnage still all over the floor! Naughty puppy!
Oops I mean Cill! Sorry, autocorrect … 🙂
My dog gave me a furtive look the other day, when some visitors had brought a big bag of that horrible orange junk food that I never eat, forget what it’s called. Dry stuff. Crispies? Like weightless orange doughnuts.
Later I found him reversing around the kitchen with the bag wedged over his head like a horse’s chaff bag except it covered his entire head, and he thought the air pressure generated by reversing would make it dislodge. When I pulled it off, his eyes looked soulfully at me from a head covered with that orange powdery stuff. He had no possible defense. The bag, which had been full, now was empty. Guilty as.
‘Bye, gotta go
Lol Cill! Reminds me of the time my dog (small and similar to a pug) got her head stuck in a large yogurt container trying to get every last drop! It was pretty funny! Wish I had a picture!
I like the way your autocorrect turned Cill into Cull! Freudian slip?
Not sure what “cull” means in New Zealand but in the US it is a nice way to say “eliminate” as in, “Well Ma, it’s time to cull that chicken that’s not laying eggs anymore…” So in that meaning, no! That’s not what I mean for sure 🙂
That’s what it means here too, Cull him out. Heh heh I already knew you didn’t mean that. 😉
feminine women are rare these days, carrying all the more soft because of it
We deal with a lot of SIW type here, NGO hippies saving the world…. the worst kind of chicks to be sure. The girls the men on the crew talk about positively afterward are the rare ones who have charm, grace…. femininity. My mother had a carer and three kids… none who give damn what happens to her. My grandmother had 5 sons, 27 grandkids and now great gandkids…. all whom adore her. Who has power?
by not pushing men and women into pre determined and traditional sex roles you essentially have no roles and you get the mess we have to day. Does forcing some into roles they don’t want to preform suck for that person? Yep. Is it best for a stable socity? Yep
Good thoughts scfton. I was thinking about my grandmas and how hard working and “stand by their man” both were. And yes that was the times,, divorce was t an iption, but they also did not seem to expect life to not have its ups and downs. They had lived thru the depression, ww2. They were both amazing women and I miss them dearly. “True” grandmas, not this “I am too busy w my life” version we see so much of today.
I disagree with forcing men and women into traditional/sex-determined roles, but recognize that they actually work for most people. The problem I see is that women *who would otherwise like to have feminine roles* are being told that their natural desires make them weak or oppressed. Likewise, men are told that masculinity is toxic or inherently chauvinistic.
We don’t need to force the few non-traditional men and women into stereotypes that they’re inefficient at performing…we need to let women know that there’s no shame in being feminine, and men in being masculine.
This is also a good point, as I commented on another blog in the past 30-40 years there’s been a real shaming of the traditional feminine and masculine, as well as a very vocal minority who give the impression that because they are not interested in traditional roles, NOBODY is interested in traditional roles, also not true. I am not for forcing anyone to be something they don’t want to be, including forcing women who don’t want to be the feminist ideal of the careerist SIW to be that or to be called “less than” or “wasted potential” or whatever. Ironically feminism started out supposedly being about “choices” and “liberation” but soon it turned into it being the only choices that were ok for women were what the feminist narrative deemed “worthy.” Nor do I think all women should be sahm or housewives or moms or wives if that is not what they want either. It doesn’t have to be even be an either this or that choice, I think a lot of people are somewhere along a bell curve.
Americans in general see to have this dualistic thought pattern, as if a polar opposite “A” or “B” are the only options when there’s all sorts of options beyond and between A or B. and not just in gender roles (as if its either/or 1. sah mom/wife or 2. siw/career) but also in politics (democrat or republican) and many other spheres. It’s a very limiting way of viewing life, IMHO. But I guess it’s easier for some than considering there might actually be a kaleidoscope of options?
give the enemy an inch he will take a mile; fail to force men and women into proper gender roles and you get the bullshit you have now; if so and so doesn’t have to do xyz then why do I etc etc. You can have a stable, traditional and Patriarchal society or you have chaos and what not that we do today. Women hate this because ti requires a universal sense of right and wrong which removes options and explanations for their bad behavior
Scfton, I am not sure I can back forcing anything on anyone. That’s the tricky thing about freedom, it requires tolerance as well as absolutes. The unites states is not formed on conformity. And yes that’s more messy than a one size fits all approach to men and women. I am not even sure patriarchy has to mean male totalitarian rule. I know as messed up as things are, I would choose this over life in a country wher as a woman I could not drive, or go to school, or be in public wo a male chaperone or not be covered from head to toe. And maybe that’s not the patriarchy you envision (or maybe it is?) but there’s got to be something that works for men and women wo force, yes? If it requires force, is it sustainable? or is that an unstable sustem? And I say this w all respect. Maybe I am misunderstanding? If so (or if not) please enlighten me.
actually the usa was formed on conformity out of a very tight ethnic patch work of basically 3 people who had very similar ideas on most things. as that ethnic/ social conformity has slip government has stepped in and forced its own version of conformity
successful societies replicate themselves ie force people into roles, drive home a love of culture and traditional roles for men and women. free societies as you are using the principle grow weak and die
history shows what works and what does not darling. You espouse the type of soft morality dying people adopt.
as for how over reaching control of women behavior should get, how a woman dresses etc that should be up to her husband and then father. One thing women have proven is an inability to govern their own lives well
Sparta lasted 700 years, Rome even longer. The usa will not last 300, not in any form or fashion the men who founded it would recognize
you may choose such a life Bloom, but where will things be when your grandkids become adults?
basically what you are talking about darling is 1st world problems in a nation that will be the third world before too long
“Once Upon a Time, you see, people had things to worry about that were more serious than their feelings. If my ancestors had any interior dialogues, these have been lost to posterity because (a) there were no blogs back then, and (b) most of my ancestors prior to the 20th century were illiterate, or nearly so. In the National Archives is a document pertaining to my great-grandfather, Winston Wood Bolt, a young farm boy who fought as a private in the 13th Alabama Infantry Regiment. The document is a receipt for an amount paid to Private Bolt, signed by his regiment’s colonel, Birkett Davenport Fry.
Private Bolt’s signature? “X.”
My illiterate great-grandfather had more serious things to worry about than his feelings. Not long after he signed his X to that receipt, Private Bolt was captured at Gettysburg, when the Iron Brigade outflanked Archer’s Brigade east of Willoughby’s Run, and Private Bolt spent the next two years imprisoned at Fort Delaware, where the prisoners caught, cooked and ate rats to augment their rations.
Hard times make hard people, and sensitivity is a luxury not afforded to those whose lives are a matter of toil and hardship.”
http://theothermccain.com/2014/11/07/broken-people-cats-and-prozac/
So you how would you force men and women to get married?
Tax anyone over the age of 25 who wasn’t wed? I’d quite gladly pay that.
Fine them? I’d rather pay that too.
Deport them to another country? Cool, I wouldn’t want to live in a country that is purely patriarchal anyway.
And what about children? Would infertile men and women be forbade from marrying?
What about fertile couples who don’t want kids? Would you kidnap the man, ‘milk’ him, then drug his wife and artificially inseminate her? I’d rather die than be pregnant.
How about couples where the man can’t work due to a severe disability? So his wife can’t support them because that’s not the stereotypical gender role…do they both leech off the welfare system for the rest of their lives? Yes, that will definitely make for a strong state. Not.
Just pointing out that there have always been exceptions to the rules…for good reason.
Scfton, Agreed much of this is first world thinking, and the relative safety and abundance enjoyed by those living in the United States, compared to much of the world, does create a situation where rather than focusing all one’s energy on securing basic dailyfood/shelter/safety does create this catch 22 of then having the time to dwell on feelings which is both good (I like living in a first world country) and bad (most people seem hell bent on squandering the opportunity focusing on silly pop culture nonsense rather than rising to their best and highest potential.) As I have said before, I hope for an awakening rather than a collapse, but perhaps that’s my feminine nature speaking there, I am not a big fan of violence or force or war although I know these things unfortunately exist for a reason.
I was trying to think of an example of a country today with the gender roles and situation you describe but could not come up with one. Maybe you can give an example?
I also have a hard time picturing that scenario in the United States, now anyway. The lid is off Pandora’s box and regardless of how things were 100 years ago and if that was better or worse, we live in the times we live in. One can individually choose not to follow the race-to-the-bottom herd as they head for the cliff, but I don’t see things rolling back to those days on a large scale, at least without a total collapse, first. Which, if Miley Ray Cyrus is indeed the “future of America” as a gal who I knows teen daughter seems to think, perhaps the collapse is nearer than we think!
It’s true abundant societies tend to become decadent ones and looking back in history that eventually collapses under it’s own gluttonous weight. China is an example of one civilization that has lasted from the time of the Romans and the Myans, although I would not say the current govt. is an expression of that as much as the underlying ancient culture that has survived despite changes in govt. is. I wonder what the “it” is that has kept them from going down the path of the Romans, Egyptians, etc. Hummm…
Tarn if you have not met scfton before, he’s an interesting combo of traditionalist/polygamist/Dom/Southernist, if that wasn’t obvious. We didnt get on at first but have become friends and while I don’t always share his views, I do find them interesting. We agree to disagree when needed and that seems to work.
I knew he was a patriarchal supporter and a traditionalist…not sure what a Southernist is, and I don’t care if he’s a Dom in his sexuality…but I’m honestly wondering how he would actually try to force people into what he wants.
Like I said, if he somehow waved a magic wand and literally made his version of the West legal, I’d gladly pay fines or extra taxes to live life as I see fit (namely, single and working outside the home). As for being forced into motherhood, the phrase “give me liberty or give me death” comes to mind. How many freedoms are people willing to give up before they realize they have none?
By Southernist I mean he’s from the South and is a Southern boy. Moonshine. Motorcycles. Appalachian native. I am sure he has a Dixie flag and would be ok with that being his national flag. (yes, scfton?) Interestingly he’s opposed to marriage even though he’s a traditionalist, often advises other men against marriage/kids for mtgow/frivorce reasons, so he’s hard to really put in a box. Scfton is his own box! Lol. As for enforcing his world on all, I think he truly believes it would be for the best, but I am not sure others would agree as I said above. I don’t want to speak for him but I think he’d support your not having kids if you don’t want to have kids. He’s said one of his partners struggles with infertility and that doesn’t seem to be an issue for him in their relationship. He was married, has several kids, now grown. I don’t know how he could not support your not wanting to be married, considering he is not married and has long term partner(s in his case) himself. I am sure he will be telling us shortly what he thinks… 😉 From Afghanistan, mind you. I am sure his military experience also weighs in on all this, he’s a warrior and makes no bones about that. Yet he also rescues pit bulls who were used as fighting dogs.. Scfton in short is an enigma, but then aren’t we all? In another lifetime, if there was such a thing, I could see him named something like Thor or Kahn, toting a club with spikes, bashing any who challenged him into a pulp, raiding villages, drinking grog and womanizing his way across Europe with a smile on his face.
We have a good amount in common then. I also rescue and rehabilitate animals who have been abused (including wildlife), am not in favor of marriage, fully support/recommend MGTOW to the single guys I know, believe polyamory/multiple men and women being partners is acceptable so long as it’s agreed upon with all involved, and while I don’t own one personally, I enjoy riding motorcycles.
I also have a lot of respect for those in the military. One of my younger brothers is a Marine, my oldest uncle is a Army sergeant, my aunt is an Air Force pilot, and my paternal grandfather and stepgrandfather were both decorated veterans of Vietnam.
I don’t approve of war, but I support our troops who put themselves on the line to protect our freedoms and country.
life is not a disney movie and you just described very traditional roles
society has been forcing people into proper roles since the beginning of time. It is not new or mysterious
not having kids because you cannot is one thing, not having them because you don’t want to is a betrayal to your people. The future belongs to those who show up.
Ok looks like I guessed wrong on what you would say there. So if a couple, both partners, did not want children?
@RedPillGirl
Heck, for all I know, I *could* be infertile. I wouldn’t know. The only partner I’ve ever had got a vasectomy about 5 years before we even met. Since he only shoots blanks, we don’t use condoms or the Pill.
Kinda like seafood…I became an ovo-lacto vegetarian at age 13, and my family was never big into eating crustaceans, mollusks, etc. So in my 30 years, I’ve never eaten lobster or crab or octopus. I could be highly allergic and will just (hopefully) never know. Same as I’ll never know if I’m capable of getting pregnant since I intend to get a tubaligation as soon as I turn 35 and doctors are more willing to do so.
Well there you go! Sounds like you are on the same page re: kids. How old are you tarn, if you don’t mind me asking?
I don’t mind at all, Bloom. 🙂
I’m 30, and my lover is 45. We have been FwB for the last 8 years, and were regular friends for over a year before that.
So……I should stuff my bra for attention? Lol
Well, take the advice tongue in cheek. I think if you do try the experiment, you will find it an interesting experience. I was not at all expecting the attention those two silly balloons brought!
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