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career woman, dating, divorce, feminism, marriage, modern woman, mother, single mom, stay at home mom, wife, working mom
In the early 1980s there was a perfume called “Enjoli” that was sold as capturing the essence of the post-feminist “modern woman” in a bottle. The commercial’s jingle went like this:
I can bring home the bacon
Fry it up in a pan
And never ever ever let you
forget you’re a man
Cause I’m a wooooman, Enjoli!
(And it continues so if you like, you can watch the whole commercial here. My apologies to readers who now can’t get the jingle out of their heads.)
Yep, she lived life to the fullest, she was the 24/7 woman. She could have a career, keep house, entice her man, read the kids a bedtime story while her man made dinner, and then they would hop in the sack and finish off the perfect day with some hot sex.
I was thinking back on this commercial over the weekend while I felt myself trying to keep up with this “have it all” lifestyle expectation and feeling like a miserable failure as it was one step from chaos collapse on all fronts. And once again was wondering is it just me who can’t cut it, or does any woman really “have it all?”
It brought to mind a trip I made to China and Hong Kong when I was around 27 years old. I traveled with my mom’s twin sister and her husband, who was born in China and raised in Hong Kong (they married when he was in the U.S. to go to college).
Thanks to my uncle, I got to see life in Hong Kong and China “from the inside” as we were welcomed guests into many of his family and friend’s homes.
Now at that time Hong Kong had only recently been handed back over to China by the British and the two cultures had not yet commingled much. Hong Kong was uber modern, densely packed, and it seemed like everyone worked 12+ hour days. I thought I had seen capitalism in the United States, but it paled in comparison to the capitalism that was Hong Kong. It was an island with seemingly one purpose — money, money, money.
One woman who was married to a good friend of my uncle had us over for dinner. She was a career woman, and like most households in Hong Kong, they had live in Philippine housekeepers. This woman was calm, collected, and stylish. Their apartment was impeccably furnished and had an amazing view of the city and the bay of Hong Kong. At one point during the evening she turned to me, looking somewhat aghast, and said, “How do American women do it?”
Confused, and worried this was another curious interrogation about Monika Lewinski, I stammered something along the lines of, “Do what?”
“Why have a career and keep a house, too?” she responded. “How could anyone possibly think they could DO both?”
It was the first time I had ever heard anyone ask that question. The discussion went on and we came to the conclusion that it was the labor laws and minimum wage that made it impossible for American women who were not in the upper class to have live in help. Yet, I realized, we were still expected to perform somehow as if we did. Interesting.
In China, we visited my uncle’s youngest sister, born to his father’s second wife and secretly raised by her mother and supported by their father in China unbeknown to the rest of the family until his father’s death. (Multiple wives were not that uncommon in China just a generation before, and so my uncle’s mother and he and his siblings embraced her as their sister and they are now one big happy family, including the two wives!)
I got the feeling that this sister had lived a more privileged life than the average Chinese girl. She was well educated and had married a star of the Bejing Opera (Sort of the equivalent to a rock star in the United States.) She had been a career girl before she married but stopped working when she married. Her husband was away traveling, but we visited her, her mother, and the sister’s cute as a button one year old son. Also there was her live in nanny/housekeeper, a young girl from a poor rural village.
As the sister excitedly entertained us with stories of her life, her mother and housekeeper prepared and served us a wonderful tea. The baby sat with his mother when he was happy and content, but the minute he was hungry or fussy or dirty he was whisked away by grandma or the nanny, only to return when he was happy and content again.
The sister looked at me (I did not have children at that time) and remarked quite dramatically, “How could a woman possibly take care of more than ONE child? I am exhausted!”
Again, I did not know what to reply. Few American women had anywhere near the round-the-clock and live in type of support this “exhausted” young mother had.
These two moments from years ago came back to me this weekend, as I felt incredibly stretched trying to run my business during one of the busiest three day tourist weekends of the year, then scrambled about each morning trying to find some clean clothes and did load after load of dishes each night. I went out to eat twice with my new beau and tried my best to be alert and attentive even though what I really wanted to do was hide from the world and sleep. Great guy that he is, he completely understood (and even unloaded the dishwasher).
All weekend that stupid Enjoli jingle kept going through my head, mocking me for not being able to do it all and be it all while smiling and looking breezy.
But today I am starting to wonder, is it really me? Do I just “not get it?” Or is it just impossible? Can a woman really have it all, without paying someone else to do part of what women’s work used to be?
Born in the early 1970-s, I’ve never known a life where I wasn’t expected to get a education, have a career, do and be it all. In many ways I am the Enjoli woman, all grown up. And quite frankly, on the verge of a nervous breakdown. So I am just going to say it, based on my experience and the frenzied lives of women around me who have tried to follow the same path, what a crock! Where do I get the last 20 years back?
Or maybe I am wrong. What do you think? Is the empowered and fulfilled post-modern feminist reality, or was it a myth all along? Or was it maybe, in America anyway, only reality for the few women born into a class who could afford live in help to do the work women have always done so they could live the Enjoli dream?
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
It’s getting close to winter and you’re feeling sleepy?
Your nose is wet all the time?
Speaking of your nose, it’s growing out from your face and taking your face with it, making a snout?
Your ears are migtating to the top of your head?
You’re getting furry all over?
You put honey on everything?
What could all this mean? 😉
Is it time to hibernate, fuzzie? Oh what a luxury that sounds like! Bears have the life!
Hi Red! Great post! I love the experiences you shared about life in China and Hong Kong. And no, to answer your main question in short, I don’t think it’s just you or that it’s really possible to sustain being the Enjoli woman.
I am a female engineer working at a major oil company and quickly rising through the ranks. I am the quintessential career woman… for now. But I am also unmarried and childless. I personally want to be a mom who does graphic design work part time on the side for fun and some extra spending money. A lot of that is just based on the way I’m wired, but then again, I believe women in general were wired to want to be nurturers more than primary providers.
I think part of the reason for so many failed marriages is that we have forgotten how to admit that we need one another. I have many friends who want to somehow function independently of their husbands (be the bread winner and the mom and the housekeeper, etc.). Marriages are supposed to be co-dependent! No, a mom should not have to “do it all” because, ideally, she would have a dad at home helping with something, whether it’s the kids or the career!
Redpillgirlnotes,
In all seriousness, it does sound like you overwhelmed. You need to keep your new beau fully informed.
I don’t think that I will hibernate this year.
I could talk about the huge amounts of help I gave while helping to raise my 5 younger siblings…It’s not the same as having kids of your own, but my brothers and sisters accidentally called me “Mom” more than once when we were growing up.
As for keeping house, I imagine it’s much easier when you live alone as I do. True, I work 6 days, but I never feel rushed while doing my chores for the week. I wake up at 8am, clean my bird and guinea pig cages, vacuum, wipe down the tile/linoleum floors, dust the ceilingsame and knickknacks, wipe down the bathroom, refresh my candles and incense, throw in a load of wash, go to the grocery down the road, come back to make lunch and finish the wash, do any remaining dishes, and make some of my meals for my lunch breaks. After all that, I am free to spend time with my animal companions, play video games, or read while making dinner.
If I had to deal with more laundry, make larger meals, care for larger animals, or watch kids, this would be *much* more difficult to do. Probably be stressful, too.
Hi arora, thanks for adding that. One reason I started this blog was to hopefully help women younger than me avoid the same snares. I think your plan is a wise one and I hope you will find a life mate that sees so, too. It is far too easy to get “hooked” on a certain income or title or whatever. My advice to you would be start now making that future life possible for your future family by paying off school loans and other debt and by putting away savings after that so you can come into marriage in good financial order. I will say now there will be some who will say, “don’t throw away your career” or what not. Ignore them. Invest in your marriage and family. That is where a woman’s security and happiness lies. Not in climbing the corporate ladder. To see this at your age, you are well ahead of the pack! Stay the course! 🙂
Thanks, Red. I appreciate your encouragement and affirmation. Yep, I am pleased to say that I am not only debt free, but I am also currently working on my second degree in graphic design so that I’m ready to leave engineering for my dream career (mom+creativity) if/when Mr. Right ever comes along!
Thanks fuzzie, yes he is fully aware of my state and is most empathetic and offers a lot of support. It’s very nice not to have to “play perfect” around him. He raised his kids solo, while living lean, and doing it all, so luckily for me, he gets it and knows how it can be. If anything he says looking back he wishes he’d cared less about a perfect house and yard (he’s a neat nik) and spent more time playing w the kids, now grown.
Hive inaction sounds pretty nice, why would a bear skip that???
Yes I am sure w younger subs you know. My kids are a joy, don’t get me wrong, more than anything I wish I could enjoy them more and stress less. Had I structured my life different I could, I just thought I really could do it and have it all!
He will! And when he does, I am sure he will appreciate your forward thinking 🙂
@Aurora
See, your plan here is exactly what more women need to do for themselves. It is an incredibly rare (and usually independently wealthy) person who can have it all. This goes doubly so for traditional women like yourself and Bloom/Red. You have picked “home” above “career”, and are taking great steps towards that goal. Bloom is doing a fantastic job getting back on track with this in her own life. I am the other side of the equation…I’ve chosen “career”. Like the two of you, I also am working to make my life what I want it to be.
See the pattern here? We are all being proactive about our futures! Were that more members of the female sex could plan ahead accordingly, and take more personal responsibility, I’d wager that the relations between the sexes would be much improved.
Well said tarn! 🙂
Thanks, Bloom. 🙂
I think you need to sacrifice some things to allow for others. If I write a list of the duties of a woman, I’m sure you can spot where Western women win out or skive off:
-keep attractive (makeup, clothes, hair, hygiene)
-keep fit (good diet, exercise)
-children (husband, maternity leave)
-educating children (schooling, life experiences, outings)
-housework (cooking, cleaning, maintenance, bills, shopping, budgeting)
-earning income (have a good job, work a number of hours, travel time)
-socializing (friendship circle, events, partner’s friends, PTA, etc)
I’d say that Western women prioritize maternity leave, husband, career, work hours and their friends and events, half-a** outings with the kids, makeup, PTA, clothes, cleaning and maintenance and disregard or outsource the rest.
Eastern women prioritize husband, maternity leave, PTA, events, makeup, clothes, hair, hygiene, diet and exercise and either throw themselves into housework OR income. Therefore they actually work more and harder than Western women.
Western women are just happy with 1/4 of each pie rather than the whole of any. 1/4 the relationship, 1/4 the family, 1/4 the work, 1/4 the home.
PS: Didn’t explicitly include caring for your man as that requires very little work, only a pleasant and willing disposition, and doesn’t really take away from any other area.
Hey I visited China and Hong Kong just a little before you did, Bloom. I was in my early twenties, and they had a giant clock counting down the days until Hong Kong went to China, in Beijing. It was kind of surreal. We were living in South Korea then.
I’ve had this discussion too many times to count, on other blogs. No one can have it all. As soon as the kids come, life changes. Something has to give. My observations and opinion are generally drowned out by women who either don’t have kids yet (“just because you can’t do it doesn’t mean no one can! I know someone who has it all!”) or don’t care about their kids and are lying to themselves.
Much like the nurse who has been practicing full time for twenty years and tells me she has never ever made a med error…she only thinks that because she’s too stupid to have caught her error. Everyone makes an error, eventually, and no one can do everything so something has to give. Even if you have a fulltime nanny, that nanny is acting like the kids’ mother and you’re probably missing something important. About the best arrangement for a working mom is the extended family situation, or spouse at home arrangement…but that doesn’t mean she’s ‘having it all’.
Superslaviswife,
For a woman who wants to be a wife, I’d agree with your assessment…except one. Makeup isn’t a requirement, just an addition. I’m 30 years old, and have never worn cosmetics unless it was specifically requested by someone else (for example, I wore some for my aunt’s wedding). Yet I still get complimented on my appearance and asked out at least twice a month.
Interestingly, the guys who do so will often say that it’s refreshing to see a “real” woman who doesn’t try to hide her skin…The few times I’ve asked what they mean, I’m told that even a “natural look” makes a woman look fake since it hides any blemishes, beauty marks, etc. They also say that the pleasant smile I always wear does more for a woman’s beauty than the best makeup techniques. (My neutral/resting face looks either upset or pissed off, depending on who you ask, so I school my features into a near constant smile or grin when I am in public.)
This sentiment is echoed frequently in the manosphere, where men will post pictures of celebrities without their makeup, or mock female okcupid accounts that wear cosmetics in every photo. I’ve read a decent number of mgtow forums where the members state a belief that women are actually committing a physical lie of sorts by donning blush and lipstick, trying to make themselves seem more than human or even just younger.
I’m not trying to come down on women who enjoy wearing cosmetics. It doesn’t affect me, and with the number of companies switching to *not* allowing animal testing, it soon won’t affect any living being other than the woman who wears it. But I wonder if makeup is more important to women than men, given my personal experiences with the topic? Something to consider and discuss , perhaps.
Good points supers, I will ponder this!
Indeed Liz, the have it all be it all thing is a trap. It only happens on TV!
I would like to go back to Hong Kong/China now. I am sure much has changed. In some areas of China we visited, it was like going back in time 300 years, the villages were so remote and untouched by technology. I wonder if that’s changed?
I’d like to go back, too, Bloom. Back when we visited, there was a lot of poverty. We didn’t tour outside of Beijing much, but when we did we could see from the buses they were using really old equipment to pave the roads out there. WWII era military trucks. It was more of a ‘state approved’ tour guide experience back then. The tour guide even explained to us how the Soviet brothers defeated the Japanese (making it sound like the Americans weren’t involved at all). We were actually surprised (and elated) that we were even permitted to tour China…not long before that the US woudln’t permit their active duty mlitary to vacation there.
Excellent points. I myself rarely wear make-up, however, due to how common it is for women to suffer acne, undereye marks, lack of colour due to stress or sunlight, etc, I’ve heard many complain that men seem to think they’re makeup-free when they’re “natural” and ill when they’re not. This would obviously make it a requirement as few men would want a woman who, in their eyes, looks permanently ill.
From my own observation: I still get the odd approach, but I notice men gravitate more towards friends who are wearing makeup. When I wear a bit of lipstick and eyeliner I get more attention, but not by much. On the other hand, despite my own shock whenever I’m dolled, I don’t actually look much different with makeup to without it, as I never go for the caked look, so perhaps there isn’t much of a difference in response because there isn’t much difference in my appearance?
Also to consider: maybe there is also a bias towards natural beauty, where a 9/10 woman looks better without makeup, perhaps even better than she looks with a “natural” layer, but a 7/10 is approached more often when she uses it to draw out her better features. So if you’re an 8 or a 9 you can go make-up free and guys wonder why all women don’t do that, but if you’re a 5, 6 or 7 and you don’t wear a little makeup guys wonder if the bubonic plague has made a return.
Yes, i saw much poverty as well. Everything was very manually done, farming for example, there would be pheasant farmers each with his own immaculate plot, all done by hand. The few times I saw a tractor they were all the same 1940s-ish John Deere. As if someone had stolen the plans and that was the one tractor available. We took a tour down the Yangtzee river, this was before the dam was finished, and saw many at biological sites and ancient villages soon to be underwater. All those rural villagers would soon be moving from the homes their families had lived in for generations into modern apartments on the hill above the high water mark. Imagine a govt saying, “move to the apt or jail, your choice!” I came home with a whole new mindset about what I “needed.” Americans have so much! Yet in some of the most poverty stricken areas there was a sense of community and connection we often lack. I think every young person should travel and see how things are in other parts of the world.
Redpillgirlnotes,
You’ve got a thread!
And female commenters! Hope you guys will stick around, too! Get some discussions going 🙂
Just to flip the script: since the advent of “have it all” feminist posturing, men have been expected to “do it all.” At the same time that the average exec is now pulling 60-80 hours a week, plus commuting, he’s also supposed to participate in child-rearing, school-managing, housework — as well as the traditional stuff in the yard and garden. At the end of my marriage I was getting up at 3 a.m. to stay current with my full portfolio of duties. Men used to work many fewer hours, and division of labor at home allowed him to come in the door and shake up his martinis.
I think the other development in the modern family that smokes adults’ equilibriums is that children are way, way over-supervised, managed, and controlled. Children used to be kicked out of the house and were free to ramble, and we did: my father put a ship’s bell on the front porch that could be heard two blocks away, and that’s how we were rounded up (after ignoring it the first few times). I was riding my bike 20 miles into the country when I was 10. I took my 6 year-old brother on his bike, on shorter rides outside of town on county roads. At 12 we were camping on our own all weekend. I probably got one ride to school, per year, and walked to and from school as a kindergartner (it was 3/4 mile). By age 10 or so we had BB guns and wandered all over the place blazing away at squirrels.
The culture now considers all of that child endangerment. CPS will take your children if you make it a habit, and the parents will be charged. Once in a while my father would come to one of my baseball or football games, whereas now the little darlings expect mom and dad to be cheering wildly, even at practice.
So in the contemporary school of super-parenting, mothers and fathers lose several additional hours per day. The days are still only 24 hours long, however.
***
After I got divorced I chose a modest house in a neighborhood that I never would have lived in while married. And I learned immediately the virtue of downsizing real estate and upsizing my household help and gardener budget. Quality of life soared. My maid cleaned three days a week and did the laundry and ironing. No more 3 a.m. bathroom scrubbing for me, unless I can’t sleep and want something to do. I really wish I had had these insights while married. We self-imposed drudgery on the marriage and worked as hard as farm wives and farmers, pre-electricity and plumbing.
I note that such help remains hard to find, which means its highly valued by others. So a lot of people feel like having help is logical.
I was talking to a buddy (deep in rural America, low average household incomes) whose wife cleans houses. He’s a warehouseman, probably makes only $50K or so. She out-earns him cleaning houses. My cleaning lady was charging me the equivalent of $25/hour, and of course this is all cash if she chooses to make it so. This is more than a handyman/rough carpenter makes.
I hired a high school boy and am training him now, for $12 an hour, and he has an open invitation to come over and work whenever he feels like it. I get to sit at my desk and when you ask a dude to really *scrub* a floor, it doesn’t get scrubbed, it gets detailed.
BuenaVista,
That’s pretty good. I did jobs like that for my elderly/retired neighbors growing up. I made $8 an hour for my baby sitting jobs, but $10-12 an hour for shoveling snow, clearing gutters, chopping wood, raking leaves, or cleaning garages. One summer, I got paid $15 an hour to help a guy put in a koi pond for his wife…their yard was more stone than soil, lol. Took us an entire afternoon to move one particularly large rock. Ended up having to lever it out of the ground with smaller stones.
You’re lucky to have found a kid who has a good work ethic. As I overhear, many don’t nowadays, at least in the US.
Very good observations bv! I agree, and thanks for adding the male pov, too. This scam has both sides working more and getting less. And I am sure this “have it all” hamster wheel lifestyle is behind many divorces.
As a kid I also wandered and explored many an unsupervised hour. Experts are now starting to recognize that peer to peer time is a big part of childhood development and are trying to encourage parents to stop hovering!
Tarn, I’m living out in the deep country, so things here lag the general culture you would read about by 20 years or so. Until recently I lived in WashDC and NYC, and good luck getting any of those kids to scrub a floor or deadhead the roses. The USA is really many, many different countries and cultures.
Bloom, the hovering and over-protectiveness doesn’t end, from the child’s perspective, with adulthood. My older children are extremely independent, but they’re pretty annoyed with me as I cut off their subsidies this year, and I kind of lost my shit over being asked to continue paying their cell phone bill. I was married when I was younger than both, and the idea that my dad would pay domestic bills was beyond the pale. I’ll close now before I say “Get off my lawn …”.
So, ironically, must close. I’m doing my laundry tonight! Albeit with a big glass of rye.
Re the pressure for micromanagement of kids, see The Cult of Kiddie Danger:
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/23/7269383/cult-kiddie-danger
Lenore Skenazy has a great blog, Free Range Kids, which is linked from the article.
David Foster
I would say amercian women rarely make their husband’s a priority which is why the majority of marriages that do not end in divorce are still failures
@ scfton sad but true. It may sound old fashioned but the happiest married women I know put their hubby in the center. Seems to work best that way.
Women don’t think about “hypergamy” as a demonstrated, historical behavior, though they do joke about ‘trading up’ when the condition arises and she wants to test the market. A married man, though, who once enjoyed the attentions and support (emotional, practical) of a woman, who suddenly finds himself fending more and more for himself, and being asked to do more and more for his spouse, had best pay attention. He’s on the bubble. If she’s then transitioning to new social and professional circles, and screening him from participating, he’s toast.
Most men do not pay attention, I suspect, and just figure that the relationship is going through a dry spell, or that such transitions are normal in a 50 year relationship. So they smile, sigh, and get up at 3 a.m. to clean the toilets like a good helpmate, go to work late so he can drive the children to school, and cancel all personal weekend activities to do all the cooking and childcare: it’s misread as just another challenge, and we enjoy a good challenge. If the wife is an alpha widow-in-the-making, it’s doubly confusing for such guys because they confuse the ongoing sexual activity with the wandering wife’s marital loyalty. But not at all. She’s just driving in both lanes (AF/BB) simultaneously. Women, they always tell us, are better at multi-tasking.
It’s like I always say;
If you treat each other as your highest priority, both of you will want for nothing.
lol not sure how I missed the house work deal but….. Its simply beyond my words to explain how much easier/ how much less house work there is a single man. Like I never really has to clean my place, just clean up behind myself
The Girls are all neat, tidy etc but women have such busy lives they make messes behind themselves. My bathroom pre Girls had the basic items like tooth brush, tooth paste etc & was easy to keep clean and orderly. Now……
I have a small but well appointed personal library, Girl#2 goes into a semi panic attack I won’t let her keep every romance novel ever written in the house….
Women just come with stuff and house work
Both of my grandmothers would dress for breakfast, but by 10 a.m. would change again and be in their ‘housework’ clothing, and dirt and clutter didn’t have a chance. So they are my examples. One was a farmwife who did everything herself, one was a banker’s wife who would work side-by-side with her ‘cleaning girl’, so I don’t think this ethic was a class thing as it is now. (It is somehow disreputable, today, for a woman to take pride in these things.) If I were to generalize, most people who do housework want the house to look clean, not *be* clean. So we have a nation of people polishing dirt with their Swifters.
When I want the house really clean I hire men and we clean it like it’s a plane. I use mil spec aircraft detergent on the floors and woodwork at these times.
@BV
Swiffers? Lol…hardly a cleaning tool. Sponges, nailbrushes, and toothbrushes, more like.
Lol true! Guys do have less “stuff.” Then when you add kids and all their stuff… 🙂
LOL the reason old fashion stayed around long enough to be old fashion is because it worked. Modernist thinking is a dooms day cult and will not out last the wisdom of the ancients
Once again Tarn you are as wrong as wrong gets. 9 out of 10 times if a man makes a woman a priority he will get shit on by her. This is as true as true gets and the primary reason there is a manosphere. If you we’re correct in this even in a simple majority of time there would be no red pill and no man o sphere.
@scfton
I can only comment based on my own preferences and relationship. It’s lasted for 8 years thus far. It may just a FwB one where we see each other twice a week for sex/meals/gaming , I think it says something that he has willingly remained sexually monogamous with me despite the fact he is under absolutely no obligation to. *shrug*
Besides, the manosphere is full of men who have been shat on by their women because they were in toxic relationships. Making your spouse or lover your highest priority isn’t a one-way street. These guys were being taken advantage of, giving their all and getting crumbs in return. That’s not how it works…that’s how it fails.
*Each* partner needs to hold the other as their highest priority. Balance is the key.
LOL they were in toxic relationships because they made her a priority…. which turns women toxic.
Then they should have left as soon as that happened. The moment you notice your partner isn’t giving their all, or worse, is taking advantage of you…show them the door. Or mgtow and use it yourself. Being alone is infinitely preferable to being used.
Again, I can only speak from personal experience, not anyone else’s.
I’m not going to comment specifically on Tarn’s repetition of the ‘red pill dudes are bitter losers who should have chosen better’ cliche; someone else can joust with this shaming language and its internal logic fail. Even if it were true, it begs the question how one reads, say 20 years in advance, the emotional and moral state of another human being. That’s some magical thinking right there. “Shut up and die” would be more thoughtful.
The fact of an 8 year-old casual NSA relationship, as well, says nothing about the conditions under which people attempt long-term intimacy and family construction. It’s as though a PUA said that his life philosophy of pump-and-dump proved that intimacy and family are irrelevant to the human condition, because he’s happy banging strangers in club lavatories.
What such dismissals really do, however, is apologize for the radical and dramatic transformation of family law, the child services bureaucracy, the school systems, the campus misandry, the military, and the destruction of once-male-only activities, clubs and other relationships. Such conditions, which are the real focus of the more constructive red pill blogs, are directly and virulently dangerous to men and their children. By asserting that only ‘bitter losers’ note their effects, Tarn is justifying the existence and expansion of these social “innovations”. By noting that none of them matter to her, because of her disavowal of heterosexual intimacy and family construction, she making an appeal to … anecdotal solipsism.
Of course she’s free to live her life in any way that makes sense for her. Certainly she is at no risk of being on the receiving end of the feminist cudgel that has been inserted in law, work, and now the quaint construction the rest of us call a family. Because her lifestyle, as she describes it not I, is one of casual, arms-length interaction with a man, she is doubly protected. The state will first protect her if she changes her mind and chooses to exploit her options, unilaterally, under the new regime. And second, practicing her lifestyle of studied, emotional independence relieves her of any obligation to be introspective about the innate emotional, sexual, educational, financial and social needs of men and women — which are profoundly different and always have been.
It’s a great illustration, though, of why manosphere-based social clustering is so threatening to feminists and their government enforcers. And why, as in the case of the gaming community, there will be very, very powerful initiatives to somehow restrict free expression. Since we’re all accustomed to the ‘bitter losers’ dismissal, as well as the claim that men comparing notes on the internet is ‘misogyny’ writ large, it’s once again worth asking: Even if true, so what? It’s an odd social justice warriorette who gets bent out of shape because a bunch of guys of all stripes compare notes.
“Then they should have left as soon as that happened. The moment you notice your partner isn’t giving their all, or worse, is taking advantage of you…show them the door. Or mgtow and use it yourself. Being alone is infinitely preferable to being used.”
Men with any sort of conscience and ethics do not terminate families and abandon children and call that “infinitely preferable.” That’s what women do, and are rewarded for doing, by the state and the culture. Some men are looking for avenues to retain their essential humanity while navigating this morass, while also attempting to protect their children from experiencing these Lost Generation effects.
lol the way to help ensure a woman doesn’t shit on you is by making sure she is not your priority. Put her 3-4th on the list and she will spend time trying to qualify herself to you. Make her #1 on your list and she thinks she has the upper hand which freaks out her monkey brain and increases the shit tests to check a man’s mate/ seed value you.
This is like the core of the red pill. An 8 year fuck buddy arrangement doesn’t offset this basic tenant.
@scfton
Whatever works for you.
lol its not what works for me its what works over the majority of time/ places etc
I know you like your special snow flake status but its not relevant for 99.9% of the world
@scfton
If you want to think I’m a special snowflake for expecting the same amount of affection and respect I put out…cool.
Whatever works for you, and other people then.
I’m not going to comment specifically on Tarn’s repetition of the ‘red pill dudes are bitter losers who should have chosen better’ cliche; someone else can joust with this shaming language and its internal logic fail. Even if it were true, it begs the question how one reads, say 20 years in advance, the emotional and moral state of another human being. That’s some magical thinking right there. “Shut up and die” would be more thoughtful.
@BV
First off, I don’t appreciate people putting words in my mouth. Not *once* did I ever say “bitter losers” to describe men who’d been screwed over by our gynocentric system. That’s all you. I do not engage in shaming language of any kind as it’s juvenile and dismissive of any attempts at real communication. I also at no point claimed that men are somehow so farsighted as to be able to ascertain another’s mental state decades into the future. That’s madness, and you and I both know it. It is a symptom of a sick society that women even are able to twist the law to suit their “needs” like this. Why do you think I support MGTOW so much? Seriously, you should look at my blog before you go climbing this accusation tree…because right now you’re in a different orchard.
The fact of an 8 year-old casual NSA relationship, as well, says nothing about the conditions under which people attempt long-term intimacy and family construction. It’s as though a PUA said that his life philosophy of pump-and-dump proved that intimacy and family are irrelevant to the human condition, because he’s happy banging strangers in club lavatories.
So now you’re bringing family into it? Okay, that’s fine…but recognize that neither scfton nor I had yet said anything about family life. If you want to introduce it to the discussion, cool. But I was under the impression that we were talking about a heterosexual, childless, and unidentified status relationship. One with children involved is an *entirely* different situation! In regards to my relationship, it’s a FwB. I suppose this is a No Strings Attached, but then so are all friendships using this definition. It has long-term intimacy, but you’re correct that it’s not conducive to making a family. Which works for both of us, as he got snipped before he met me, and I am disgusted by the thought of pregnancy (and before you put words in my mouth again, I mean *me* being pregnant, not anyone else). Believe it or not, there are people of both sexes out there who don’t want to have children. Just because my lover and I are in this group doesn’t mean we’re incapable of sharing intimacy, respect, or love for one another.
What such dismissals really do, however, is apologize for the radical and dramatic transformation of family law, the child services bureaucracy, the school systems, the campus misandry, the military, and the destruction of once-male-only activities, clubs and other relationships. Such conditions, which are the real focus of the more constructive red pill blogs, are directly and virulently dangerous to men and their children. By asserting that only ‘bitter losers’ note their effects, Tarn is justifying the existence and expansion of these social “innovations”. By noting that none of them matter to her, because of her disavowal of heterosexual intimacy and family construction, she making an appeal to … anecdotal solipsism.
Family law can pissed up a rope for all the “good” it currently does.
I come from a family that involves numerous divorces (3 from my father, 2 from my mother) so I can say with great accuracy that child services is crap. Schools, clubs, and colleges are becoming more under the thrall of Feminism everyday. No less than 6 of my family members are or have been in the Armed Forces, including my younger brother who is currently in Afghanistan as a Marine. You are preaching to the choir here. To say that *none* of this matters to me is folly, and I am at a loss to explain why you are so confident making assumptions about my life and what I know. Yet *I’m* the one who’s engaging in solipsism? Come on, BV…you’re better than this.
Misandry and gynocentrism is far reaching. It affects my family members. It affects my friends. It affects my customers. It affects people I don’t know or will never meet. It affects me, especially as I’m fully expected to take part in various male-bashing conversations and help maintain this revolting status quo, because people only see a pretty woman when they look at me. Do you understand how warped it is to be around people who look like you but continuously talk down about or discuss actively using the group you identify with? It’s frickin weird and disturbing, but despite your claim of solipistic thought processes on my part, I’m enough of an empathetic adult to understand that what I go through is only a fraction of what cis men do.
Of course she’s free to live her life in any way that makes sense for her. Certainly she is at no risk of being on the receiving end of the feminist cudgel that has been inserted in law, work, and now the quaint construction the rest of us call a family. Because her lifestyle, as she describes it not I, is one of casual, arms-length interaction with a man, she is doubly protected. The state will first protect her if she changes her mind and chooses to exploit her options, unilaterally, under the new regime. And second, practicing her lifestyle of studied, emotional independence relieves her of any obligation to be introspective about the innate emotional, sexual, educational, financial and social needs of men and women — which are profoundly different and always have been.
And here we go…the part that really gets my goat. I have had the misfortune to have been born with a female body, so I am likely a ticking bomb when it comes to any relationship with a male. “If she changes her mind…if she chooses to exploit her options…” I’ve heard it all before, and quite frankly am utterly nauseated by this argument by now. Listen now and listen well: The fact that I have a vagina does not make me morally inferior. The fact that I have a male-mind does not make me morally superior. The fact that I am capable of empathy for others and was raised to believe that men and women are to be treated as equals whenever possible is what makes me a moral person. Do you honestly think that just because I was born with two X chromosomes that I’m blind to what society is like? That I relish in how fucked up it is, just because it could hypothetically help me if I was to act in unethical ways? How would this even be possible, given that I have a lover I would literally die for and more male friends than I can count on 2 hands who tell me of all their troubles?
And this: “her relationship…is one of casual, arms-length interaction with a man”. What the hell? I don’t know who’s comments you’ve been reading, but they aren’t mine. Arms-length? Yes, because waking up at 3am to pick him up from the airport is “arms-length”. Holding him as he cries every 3rd week of December because it’s the anniversary of his father’s death is “arms-length”. Paying for every single movie, every meal, every play, every train ticket, every hotel room, every airline ticket, everything we do together because I know I make more than him is “arms-length”. Rearranging my work schedule so I could visit him when he was in the hospital after a car accident is “arms-length”. Happily answering the phone when he calls on his drive home at midnight because he needs to vent to someone about his job is “arms-length”. I had no idea that being there for someone through thick and thin, in sickness and in health, emotionally…mentally…and physically, is holding them at arms-length. Oh wait, it’s not. BV, why do you think you can pass judgment on someone else’s relationship after skimming a few comments on a single blog? I certainly don’t think that way about anyone here, including you.
It’s a great illustration, though, of why manosphere-based social clustering is so threatening to feminists and their government enforcers. And why, as in the case of the gaming community, there will be very, very powerful initiatives to somehow restrict free expression. Since we’re all accustomed to the ‘bitter losers’ dismissal, as well as the claim that men comparing notes on the internet is ‘misogyny’ writ large, it’s once again worth asking: Even if true, so what? It’s an odd social justice warriorette who gets bent out of shape because a bunch of guys of all stripes compare notes.
Yes…everyone here (well, maybe not Wilson) understands that the system is idiotic, corrupt, and gynocentric. Now, I know you’re trying to reference me when you speak of “an odd social justice warriorette who gets bent out of shape because a bunch of guys of all stripes compare notes” but am confused as to why you believe this of me. I’m not a SJW. I’m not a feminist. I’m the least likely person to get bent out of shape because of guys speaking openly…I’ll reiterate: Look at my blog. 85% of it revolves around the precise things you’re talking about. You’re reading between lines that don’t exist!
Tarn
Tarn, oh Tarn, oh Tarn
you forgot again! You’re a UNICORN
When women usually say that ‘treat each other as the priority #1’ stuff they mean ‘I’m a princess and should be treated accordingly. And anything I do for him makes him the luckiest guy in the world’.
When unicorn-you say that, you’re saying it as a man would…can you not see the semantic leap that you’re asking red-pill men to perform? You’re stating what you actually do as if it’s the norm…it is not the norm!
Yes. The men in question were suckered and are rightfully angry. If you’re not careful you’re going to get the backlash from those not considering the unicorn source of what you’re saying.
What you’re saying sounds like the blue-pill spiel given to boys that gets them shafted. The fact that you really mean it, you DO it, is great because the world would be a lovely place if it was blue-pill in both directions. In the real world, however, blue pill guys do their part then get the…well let’s say ‘raw deal’ and spare the sweary bit, shall we?
“Then they should have left as soon as that happened.”
well…yes. But only a red-pill guy is likely to know that and do that. Blue pill guys (according to the diet of BS they were raised on) might well double down on the being shafted.
I was kind of lucky in my
marriagedivorce because how it played out; it just happened to trigger my INTJ instincts ahead of my blue-pill instincts – I realised that I couldn’t make her happy…so I stopped trying. Her father folded to her mother under the same circumstances (deeply blue-pill).I think that you’re underestimating the depth of the blue pill programming that most guys receive, but then you didn’t receive it, did you? You didn’t swallow the ‘I am teh princess’ pill you had offered to you.
To be honest, you haven’t just got a male mind, you have a very logical straight-forward male mind. If you’d be born with a male body you’d have been as blue-pill as they come…kind of like me (sadly)…except as I say, my INTJness got triggered first; I can’t make her happy, I’m not going to try any more. I will not abase myself to the princess. That wasn’t the end of the marriage, it was the end of any chance of me being tooled within the marriage (no kids, short marriage, UK, mid nineties – all special circumstances).
Hell yes. This could quite easily have been the script that my wife thought I’d fall for (and might have been right). Her Mummy and Daddy did this, I suspect, she ran the house, he slaved to fulfill every wish.
I expect he’s dead now, I bet I would have been drafted in to help support her every whim. Lucky me.
“I’m not going to comment specifically on Tarn’s repetition of the ‘red pill dudes are bitter losers who should have chosen better’ cliche; someone else can joust with this shaming language and its internal logic fail.”
I see how you get there. I do see that. But I think that you:
a) forget the source (male mind, female body)
b) mis-read it somewhat because of a. I don;t blame you, but I really do not think that Tarn meant that. I’ve been chatting with ‘her’ for a year and I am very clear that I might just have well been talking to a guy. A guy with some uncommon experiences…but a guy. She’s frighteningly honest even by male standards.
Read it as you will, I’m just saying…consider the source…consider the source a male mind with a shockingly poor male choice of words at times.
Oh…the predictable clusterfcuk of misunderstanding and…there you go.
How about both sides try again, or just rack it up to bad wording?
I can see how Tarn’s words could have triggered this, but have you read her blog? This isn’t a harpy talking. If you imagine Tarn as a gay male, you’d be closer to treating what s/he says correctly. A gay male with an INTJ personality. Us INTJ personalities are prone to saying what we mean and assuming that everyone else understands more than they usually do. Trust me, my father-in-law NEVER forgave me for something I said to myself, but out loud when I dropped something I was handing him. He thought I meant to say it about him…he never forgave me, his wife never did, nor my wife…now I think of it (genuinely) I wonder if it was part of her parents taking her side when she started doubting the marriage. fuck.
Tarn is not a feminist, nor an SJW. Please re-read what she said originally (before the row) while remembering who said it. This is not the bitch you’re looking for.
Oh, and no, I do not think that you can have it all…as a man or as a woman. men just don’t feel guilty about the necessary compromises.
Just an opinion 😉
Spawny, I neither bicker on the internet anymore (unless the subject is football), nor do I bother trying to figure out the mind of a person who says she’s a man in the body of a woman who is in a brilliant fuck buddy deal once-a-week for 8 whole years, and therefore has life suggestions for men with wives, ex-wives, children and relationship experience spanning decades.
I have exactly zero ambition to imagine what a woman thinking like a gay man has to offer heterosexual men who have spent decades in sexually alive monogamous heteronormal cis-gender [trendy new term here] children-beholden families. That contortion requires yoga, and I don’t do yoga.
Nor do I take kindly to anyone who reduces the manosphere to “those red pill guys who all let their women shit on them” because a) she doesn’t know anything about anybody here; b) everybody here has a different life story; and c) I’m not a pussy, I’m very proud of my behavior while married. The core misunderstanding in all this is that the State does the shitting, and comments like that enfranchise the State to do more. She has no respect for what the police, courts, and culture do to men — and she will never have to learn, either.
Last, I’m also trying not to do the anecdote thing anymore, but if you had some idea of what — despite my failures in love, IQ and $ — I’ve accomplished and what my amorous options are today, the idea that I’m going to give a fuck about advice from someone who says, “Hey, just leave if it’s not working out” is pretty funny.
Nothing of consequence is ever achieved by just bailing out because the weather is bad. Pilots land the fucking plane, and if you’re low-fuel, you’re shooting the fucking ILS even if it’s 0/0. (I have dead-sticked an ILS and I am not joking.) Doing so is the only rational thing to do. Jumping out of airplanes because the weather is bad ended with Lindbergh’s mail runs. FYI: aviation is a metaphor for me, and flying is 10x easier than what I do for a living.
I know you mean well, but Bloom is not set up for blog wars so why don’t we pretend this never happened. Tarn can tell other guys that someone shat all over them, and that there’s no difference between male and female parents to a boy, and it takes a village, and the height of intimacy is screwing some person once a week without obligation. And you have my word that I’ll ignore it, every time. Just like I did that wall of text up there.
I did mean well, thanks for that.
What Tarn said initially is what a blue pill young guy would have said. She’s still idealistic. That was misconstrued, then it all went to shit.
I’ll leave it there. I wanted to fix an argument over a misunderstanding between friends or acquaintances. That seems impossible, but starting another huge argument to sort the first…nope.
Have a nice evening.
Spawny,
Dear Gods…no! I absolutely do not want a feud starting here. While I’m frustrated that BV admits to completely ignoring my explanation-response, there’s nothing I can (or would) do about it. Although we’ve gotten along quite well in the past on J4G, and indeed, even just a bit earlier in this very thread, it’s obvious that he no longer wishes to speak with me. I am fine with that, and will likewise refrain from responding to him in hopes of preventing needless conflict out of respect for Bloom. I do want you to know that I appreciate your attempt to find a common ground. You’re a good man, Spawny Get. 🙂
I am an idealist, it’s true. As I told Liz, I naturally look for the silver lining in every situation…even if it’s only that you’re still alive to potentially change your life in better ways. The broken system we have doesn’t have to be this way. Men and women alike should be able to find relationships where they give and receive equal amounts of respect, love, intimacy, attention, and honor. The fact that so many don’t is a terrible thing, and steps must be taken to remedy it.
I don’t like arguments over misunderstandings…but at the end of the day, it looks like nothing can be done…sorry to see the argument as I like both of you. Both are still welcome at my place (even if you don’t interact, that’s up to you both).
You are an idealist, but you walk the walk as well as talking the talk. BUT, I think you hit a red-button-issue by accident. Most of us have them.
I need to add that you’re walking the walk in a FWB relationship, but your (idealistic) comments were taken as referring to marriage…ba da boom
Understood, Spawny.
Seems I’ll have to include a lot more clarifications when I write here…which I will certainly do if it avoids complications. I sometimes forget that most people have layered ways of communication, rather than the take-it-as-is bluntness we do.
My apologies for my part in the miscommunication, Buena Vista.
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