attraction, battle of the sexes, break up, break ups, co-parenting, dating, divorce, feminism, love, marriage, misogeny, patriarchy, red pill, relationships, sexism, single mom, single parenting
If you have done much reading on the manosphere about the red pill you surely have found, well, that seems to be a guy thing. It’s mostly guys talking to other guys about this red pill. Can a woman be red pill? Should she? What can a woman gain from red pill information?
As I have shared elsewhere on this site, I stumbled across the red pill after yet another relationship failure, desperate to figure out what I was getting wrong so I could start getting it right. I was doing all the things I had been told girls were supposed to do: I had a college degree, a career, had started my own business – I was living the dream! I was doing and being all that I could be. I am woman, her me roar.
Except, that all wasn’t working out so well on the home front. I was a single mom with two children and failed relationships with both of their fathers, one I was married to for 12 years, the other who I met a few years after after my divorce, we lived together and had a child (because this is the “modern age” right? Who needs marriage? It’s just a piece of paper, I thought. Marriage didn’t work for me, so why not skip the marriage part?) That time, it lasted 4 years. I was devastated. About 6 months after that, I met and dated someone for 6 months. It was going good at first, but then that too crashed and burned. WTF?
I knew there had to be another way.
Now that I am red pill aware, I can see the role I played in all those relationships not working out, and it wasn’t minor. Not that it was all my fault either, but I could have been and done better in all those relationships. I am ashamed to admit I rarely thought about what these men might need from me in these relationships, that maybe they weren’t just there to prop me up so I could live my dreams. My career and business came first, before them and before my kids. I was trying to become this island, the liberated modern female who didn’t need anyone but herself, could take care of herself, could provide for herself, and could thanks to all that be unoppressed and free.
Despite these repeated relationship failures, everyone around me was building me up for being this “strong independent woman,” or SIW who was a single mom, running a business, active in the community. I didn’t need a man, they said, I was living proof that feminism worked. Meanwhile, inside, I knew something was not working, not working at all. I didn’t want to be a SIW poster child. I wanted to be a part of something, not to be an island. I wanted a happy relationship and a happy family.
Confused, I was surfing the internet one night looking for information on successful relationships when I stumbled across a red pill blog, The Rules Revisited. It was a blog written by a man, to women, explaining a lot of things that women don’t seem to get about men. I could not stop reading. Suddenly a lot that didn’t make sense before, suddenly did. I read every single post over the next few days. I read all the comments. Somehow one of them led me to another red pill blog, Just Four Guys, where inner-gender relationships and dynamics of men and women and relationships were being discussed more openly and honestly than I had ever seen.
Over and over I heard the story of relationships failing, from a male point of view. Through their stories, I could see where I had gone wrong in my own. Friends who I tried to talk to about what I was reading flat out rejected it as misogynistic rantings of bitter, angry, men. How could I even read that stuff, they asked?
But somehow I knew these red pill men were on to something. I read the blogs every day. I read every comment. Over time I started to recognize the names of those who commented over and over, started to piece together their stories. Eventually I started commenting myself. Having grown up with only one older brother, their direct way of communication and their abrupt, sometimes offensive, language didn’t phase me.
These were men being men. I knew I needed to understand men. Here they were. And although I have heard many women say red pill men hate women, it is not true. Those guys were/are some of the smartest, kindest, bighearted men (and a handful of women also interested in these red pill ideas) I had ever met. And even though I was only starting to grasp the red pill, they welcomed me and they encouraged me on my quest to try to understand how men think, what men needed, and what women just don’t get about men but men wished they did.
Day after day they accepted me and made me feel welcome although at times if I was getting off track they would make no bones about pointing it out. Several times when I would have a “red pill moment” and come face to face with a truth about myself or the world I didn’t want to see, they patiently supported me as I wailed and beat my chest and went off the rails emotionally in protest before making peace with whatever it was I didn’t want to see but needed to. They knew, because they had been there, too.
“If the red pill wants to make you vomit,” one said, “then you know you are starting to get it.” Because it’s true, the red pill often reveals to men and to women things about being who we are that we’d rather not see. Things we have built amazingly complex subterfuge, smoke and mirrors, and pretty little lies around, desperately trying to conceal and deny these truths about men and women and relationships and how it all really works.
I learned all sorts of thing. What men wanted in a woman. What was important to men in relationships. What was important to men in general. Where women often go wrong. Where I went wrong. Why men acted like they did. What women just didn’t get about men. What women just didn’t get about themselves. And more, much much more.
Sometimes a woman commenter would show up and start arguing with these guys, displaying her SIW flag loud and proud and insisting these red pill concepts were wrong. When this happened, these men made no bones about what the red pill had to say about all that. In many cases these women would double down, and yes it could get ugly. The men would call out the red pill ideas these women’s very own commentary proved true. Sometimes the gals would stay and try to fight, lobbing in low blows and insults, but the guys would not back down on what they believed. Sometimes the girls got it and settled in to be a constructive participant. If not, and usually after much drama, eventually they would go off in a huff, reject the red pill entirely.
As my own understanding grew, I would try to act as a translator for these new gals, putting what these guys were saying into words I knew a woman could better understand. For me. For them. And even for my own girls. At that time, I felt even if I wasn’t in a relationship and didn’t know if I ever would be again, I could at least learn these things so I could help my two daughters and other women avoid my divorced single mom fate.
In fact, doing so inspired me to start this blog, I wanted to share with women these red pill ideas, both to better understand them myself by writing about them and in hopes this information could help them avoid some of the relationship pitfalls I had not. I felt if women could understand these red pill concepts, from the female point of view, it would improve their lives and relationships. I also do the same in real life, counseling friends about how to save their marriages and connect with their men rather than encouraging them “you go girl!” toward divorce and the SIW path I now know is not the way.
Am I red pill? Can a woman really be red pill? I am not sure. But I know I am at the least red pill aware, and that what I have learned from the red pill over the past year plus has set me up to succeed in my new relationship and understand how to have that happy marriage and family I have always wanted plus how to eliminate the thinking and behaviors I held that were preventing it before. It’s changed me, and for the better. I feel very good about the future. The time I have spent wrestling with these red pill concepts has paid off many fold in making me a better woman, a better partner, a better mother, and a better friend. It hasn’t always been easy, but I don’t regret it, not one bit.
What do you think? Can women be red pill?
I think most of roosh’s problems with chicks in the usa is roosh.
Fuzzie, what are the scienctiific references, personal anecdotes, logical insights, or basic observations that support your comment that a change is a gonna come. I see none — hence my challenge. When Brad Pitt is a pussy, no one’s going to challenge the current orthodoxy.
SFC Ton said:
the ussr lasted 70 years and they delat with a lot more bullshit then we do. yes change will come but we have no idea when or if it will be for the better
It’s coming from my gut. The only thing that is constant is change and there are a lot of frustrated men and complacent women out there. There is a lot of interest in matters that we discuss and it is accelerating.
I guess that you could call it faith.
As for Brad Pitt, how did he get cast as Achilles?
Here is something that was provided by a MGTOW youtuber named Sandman.
Emily L said:
Not sure it’s possible for a woman or man to be 100% red pill bc some aspects try to separate the inseparable. Plus a lot of red pill preachers come across like the Jimmy Swaggarts of their day; unable to practice what they preach. So in *some* instances you have the blind leading the blind, and as a consequence people who could actually benefit from the valuable elements don’t because of mixed messages from phony models sporting self-contradictory examples in themselves.
Another *observation* of mine is that even in applying rp goodies, a lot of people (women and men) play a dirty defense. Some of them resort to shenanigans like stealing plays, deflating balls, putting extra players on the field, and what not. Defense is necessary, but in most games, tis the offense that puts points on the board.
Putting the possible negatives aside, there’s so much wrong with society it’s doubtful that any rp movement in its current form will make its mark over time. I’m more of an optimist than I appear. I’m also thankful that God has blessed me in so many ways. But it’ll take strong revolutionaries or maybe an act of God to clean up the ills of the world.
Interesting timing on this post though. Roosh tweeted this mentioning how poorly written it is, but thought I’d share as there seems to be some sort of uptick in anti-manosphere articles. http://boingboing.net/2015/01/28/a-beginners-guide-to-the-red.html
SFC Ton said:
What is going on in the SMP to day is best described as combat dating so the shenanigans are often well founded.
the link Emily L posted was written by a dumb ass/ leftist making up things about the other side
I was reading the NY Times from last Friday down at the bar last night. Two articles skirt and then illuminate this subject.
One, by David Brooks, discusses Dataclysm, the book by one of the co-founders of OKCupid. The famous disconnect between women and men, in regard to what they find attractive, is discussed (i.e., women found the arithmetically impossible 80% of men “below average” in looks; male evaluations of women followed a normal distribution). To summarize, Brooks notes the overwhelming appeal of alphas to women, then immediately turns around and says men and women just need to be themselves and allow the public display of their vulnerabilities, in order to find love, which has nothing to do with looks. I mean, it’s word salad. But it’s blue pill.
Two, the review by Stephen Holden (a very good critic, I think) of the new Pacino movie directed by Barry Levinson. Holden notes that it’s a fine movie and Pacino’s best work in years. Problem is, there are two female characters who are meanies — and Holden goes off on a tangent and calls it a misogynist movie — and then extends his remarks to say that there must be a lot of men in society who have trouble with strong women like the two bad girls. Evidently, just portraying a criminal female (as most movies portray good and evil men) is prima Facie evidence of “misogyny.”
My point is I don’t see women, or men for that matter, confronting their own culture en masse and asserting TRP. Men are just labeled “misogynist”, bitter and maladapted to our brave new world. I should think that any woman who did would be sincerely considered deranged.
BV likes my avatar! Squee! (jumps up and down, hugging self) Squee! 🙂
That bit about the cat litter smell made me laugh out loud…and I also think it’s a very apt analogy that humorously sums up the point. Brava…er, bravo, BV.
Dilbert has a premise he calls ‘pick the delusion that works’. He gives the example of his dog, Snickers. When the dog wants to play fetch in the yard, she follows him around and stares into his eyes with freakish intensity, as if using her Jedi doggy powers on him. More often than not, it works and he takes her outside to play ball. He explains that the interesting thing is…he isn’t sure if she understands that it’s his choice whether to go play ball or not. Her “mental control” works so reliably that he’s certain she probably thinks all that matters is how hard she stares at him and how vividly she imagines herself chasing a tennis ball.
I’ve also heard it referred to as the ‘thermos theory’.
Q: “How does it keep the hot hot and the cold cold?”
A: “Who the fuck cares? It’s a thermos, use it.”
I can’t precisely answer Bloom’s question as to why my husband and I are still hot for each other after all these years. First, he’s fucking awesome, so it would be weird if I wasn’t into him. Also, I think sex is the glue…I’m seriously addicted to him. Also, he doesn’t take any shit (but, I don’t give him much shit…so when I have a concern he takes it very seriously), he’s the leader in the pecking order of our home. One of the things that bothered my most about Cill’s story about his aunt wasn’t that she was screwing around, it was the part about her allowing the man to come to their home and humiliate her husband in front of the children. That, to me, is the ultimate in disloyalty. I never say anything bad about my husband to the kids, even when I’m angry at him. I’ll tell him what I think, but I do not denigrate him to our children.
I’ll add some more about that last bit, after thinking some more on it.
Women are socially conditioned now to always think their thoughts, emotions, feelz matter and have to be expressed…they truly believe that the expression of these feelz to whomever is willing to listen to them matters more even than what they are saying. So they’ll use their children for verbal sounding boards, much like the family cat, to express their feelings about their husband in that moment…they don’t understand it is disloyal and causes damage. They should be aware of that fact, and they need to be aware of that fact.
Fuzzie, BV, Ton:
Of doomsday scenarios and long slow declines:
I’m more or less of BV’s and Ton’s view on this. I used to see things as Fuzzie does, but now I don’t see a hard reset or a collapse, at least not for a long, long time. I see a long slow slide in the general direction we’re currently headed. A lot of things inform my opinion (which I could be completely wrong about).
The big thing is that, well, things just aren’t bad enough for a collapse, and they would have to get much, much worse before your average couch potato gets up to do something about it.
1. Men can put up with insane amounts of shit. And they have, for millenia. In exchange for the privilege of calling a woman “wife”, the average American working man tolerates a literal neverending river of shit that would never, ever flow his way were he not married. He can reduce that river (but only slightly) by simply not marrying that woman and not impregnating her.
What you’re seeing now is that which our Founding Fathers taught so well:
“accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.”
Right now the evils are still quite sufferable by many.
2. Men respond by just withdrawing from it. They don’t agitate for change. They just retreat from whatever the source of their irritation/frustration is, until there are no longer any places to retreat to. And there are still places for men to retreat to, even if those places are their own homes and online.
A guy who really needs that sexual release doesn’t even have to go to the gas station to pick up a copy of Hustler or Gent, or to the seedy video store to rent a porno. All he needs is a smartphone, or a laptop and an internet connection, and he can view any kind of porn he wants, any time he wants, for as long as he can stand it. (There is so much online free porn that it makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever for anyone ever to pay for it.)
3. The online “red pill” community is tiny. We’re infinitesimally small. Sure, more and more RP philosophy is seeping into the general populace, but only the “marriage is a bad deal” part.
4. The economy isn’t bad. People aren’t feeling real economic pain and haven’t since about 1938. The welfare state will continue unabated for the time being. It will because the people demand it and the politicians will find a way to deliver it. They have no choice. The alternative is upwards of 100 million people of… varying hues across the nation starving, rioting, and looting from the gated communities and the lily white suburbs. The folks in Bethesda, Westchester, Nassau County, New Haven, DuPage County, Glencoe, Winnetka, Orange County, and Pacific Palisades won’t have it.
5. Quality of life is good. People have their crappy food, laptops, Starbucks, endless infotainment, and smartphones. They can feed shit into their minds 24/7/365. Women have their alpha thugs to fuck them and they can find new ones on Tinder all the time. Men’s sex lives are feast or famine. For those feasting, it’s good times. For those in famine, retreat into a job that pays for bros, beer, bongs, xBox and online porn looks pretty damn good. That’s all a single man really need, If he can’t get even a slut to marry him, then that’s what he’ll do and it’s good enough. As long as he can support himself and be left alone, that’s good enough.
6. The basics are still getting done. The police and fire depts. are still there to collar the bad guys (eventually) and put out your fires. The trash still gets picked up. The lights still come on when you flick the switch. You still have more potable hot and cold water than you will ever need. The road potholes still get patched; the oil still gets changed; the Wal-Mart is still open; the food and gasoline still get there so you can buy it; the trains and planes and trucks and cars all still go when and where you want and expect.
There’s a Thought Catalog piece by some princess that outlines the 7 Rules to Make Princess-Me Mad on a Date. Basically, she wants to be treated like a pre-feminism pedestalized prize.
Naturally, the comments are filled with a bunch of guys who say, “Eh, you realize feminism, society, school, everything tell us not to behave this way”. And the women, in response, often say, “Well, who said I’m necessarily a feminist?”
Markets *are* efficient and women today have near-total optionality in regard to BP or RP ethics. There’s no way they’re going to lobby to restore legal, social and financial parity for men; doing so it absolutely against their own interests. Sure, a few will get mugged here and there (say, one of their boys is falsely accused at college) and they’ll briefly exclaim their outrage. But this contest is over, they’ve won, and their self-interest mandates expansion of the current rules favoring them. The tipping point is already behind us.
Men are being trained to view this as good for them, the State is investing in single-parent communities and promoting the idea that this is good for everybody, the distractions in the world multiply daily as Deti notes. I see nothing on the horizon that would disrupt the secular drift toward femme-centric sexual political hegemony.
The girl who wrote this piece left out one of her deal breakers: if a man, who is supposed to shepherd her about and buy her fine things and kiss her properly at just the right moment, if a man said to her: you’re not my equal. Because she’s a strong independent woman who also deserves to be treated like a ward, a starlet and a potential porn star. She won’t be giving any of that up.
Agreed Liz, children should not have to play free therapist/sounding board for a parent. My mom would do this and it was very distressing, I would feel like, “hey, I am only 8, why are you asking me? Aren’t you in charge here?”
The gal considering frivorce talks entirely too much to her children about their dad and her problems. Not good.
Agreed 100%, just don’t!
@ Deti you are probably right, as depressing as that is.
Case in point, the frivorce friend came over to help me w some stuff I needed to get done for my biz. Another friend, 60, single and struggling, was there too. The gal started on the same old “I am unhaaaaapy” stuff, all the reasons she should kick him to the curb, plus the usual total unwillingness to look at herself, my other friend backed me up with the rp advice. Example:
Gal #1: “My husband is soo lazzzzzy!”
Gal #2: “does he go to a job everyday?”
Gal 1: (shocked) “well, yeah..,”
Gal 2: “well then he is not lazy”
Gal 1: “actually I never thought about it that way…”
This went on for four hours until she had no more excuses to retreat to. Then I dropped the bomb:
“So if your husband treated you the way you treat him, how would you feel?
You are right, her husband does retreat from it and just suffer thru. He puts up w way more than she ever, ever would. I hope that next time she starts going down the “I’m unhaaaaapy road, she remembers how unhaaaapy he must be too. And that her unhaaaaapy is largely attitude and letting herself dwell on the negatives.
We challenged her to do the 30 days of sex challenge, see if that doesn’t turn things around! 😀
He sounds way too beaten down for the 30 days of s-e-x challenge. He probably needs a compass and a chart just to find his privates. Baby steps may be in order.
Good work, Bloom! (and, collaboratory 60 year old friend of Bloom)
I’ve found a good question to ask, when things seem unresolvable (I think we could apply this to just about any problem/disagreement involving humans and negotiation/interaction), is:
“what would you do in my position?”
@ bv true, he’d likely not know what to do! Maybe start with the twice a week challenge? Or is that too much?
It is actually heartwarming to me to hear you describe your husband as awesome. Frankly, I don’t know many women who would describe their husbands that way, or even think of their husbands in that way, despite the fact that I can see objectively that these men are putting in the effort.
I know many good husbands. I know few good wives, though I know many awesome mothers.
What is a good wife? IMHO, a woman who creates an emotional home for her husband. One who makes him feel accepted, appreciated, and desired. One who is free with a complement, a meal, a massage, or sex. She may not always agree with her husband, but her disagreements are private and respectful. Her job is irrelevant. Her achievements in the world of education and business are irrelevant. How she makes her husband feel is what makes her a good wife.
What makes a man a good husband in the eyes of a blue pill man like me? IMHO, a man who provides for his wife and family. A man who puts the needs of his wife above his own (yes, I am very beta). A man who treats his wife with kindness and respect, listens to her, validates her emotionally, and tries to give her the life she wants. A man who is free with a complement, a massage, sex, or a nice surprise for her. A man who tries his best to make her happy.
What makes a man a good husband in the eyes of women in reality? A stream of impossible contradictions. A man who provides the kind of lifestyle she wants, but doesn’t work such long hours that he isn’t home in the evenings. A man who treats her kindly when she wants kindness, but rough when she wants roughness (and somehow knows on his own when that will be). A man who listens to her, but knows when to override her. A man who treats her as an equal in public, but is better than her in almost every way. A man who is a feminist among company, but dominant sexually. A man who makes decisions as a leader, but the decisions he makes are the ones she would make. A man who does an equal amount of household chores, in spite of his working longer hours outside the home. A man who is educated and genteel, but strong and handy. A good dad, an excellent lover, and a man who knows when to just give her space…without needing to be told. A man with masculine roughness and the emotional receptivity of her female best friend.
Is it any wonder most women don’t think of their husbands as awesome?
@ Jeremy good points! That is an impossible order now isn’t it?
I think women nitpick their own happiness away. Maybe life is too easy, first world problems???
My grandmother grew up in pre-war Poland. She describes her criteria for a good husband as follows:
1) has a job.
2) not too fat.
We’ve come a long way!
@ Jeremy, interesting how your Grandma was able to boil it down to what really matters! I think about that often, like people who lived through WWII in Europe, bombings every night, invasion, constant threat. And how instead of that making them weak, it made them strong, it made them appreciate the small things, get back to what really matters. “You have a job? Food? A home? Family? And all that — it’s not in a war zone??? Then shut the F up and APPRECIATE IT!” Maybe your grandma wouldn’t say it quite like that, but I am sure she would be slapping her forehead listening to this “I’m not haaaaapy” nonsense.
It’s the SMP that has me down. If anything I said yesterday came across as personal, I am sorry.
Now as for this bubble brain writing for Thought Catalog, without going there, it sounds like she is proclaiming that she deserves her cake, gets to eat it, and thankyouverymuch for the ice cream and sprinkles.
Any guy who reads that is going wish her a happy long walk off a short pier.
I can see deti’s vision of the unwanted eighty percent retreating to studio apartments and solitary pursuits but, that can’t last. They have no interest in the future and if they feel that society has disowned them,they’re correct.
@ fuzzie, true, and I can’t remember if I saw it on J4G or Rational Male or Spawney’s or maybe even here, the idea that men do what they do and achieve what they achieve largely because they want a woman. Wanting a woan drives almost all male achievement (and male achievement is what builds civilizations and leads to innovation and invention and advances of all sorts, it’s just fact!) If 80% decide they don’t want a woman anymore, they have no incentive to strive for any of that either. That’s not going to be good at all…
I think that Dalrock covers it best.
SFC Ton said:
Deti, if you agree with me, you cannot possibly be wrong…….
I maintain there is nothing wrong with most wives that a little domestic violence won’t cure
Ummm ton I am not sure I would go that far. If it comes to that, better for man to pack her stuff and send her off in that case.
SFC Ton said:
Seen how that plays out within my own family. The slap a hoe tribe kept all their stuff and their women.
Women are children ans children require physical correction. Spare the rod, spoil the child.
It’s the responsibility of the parent to raise a child to be respectful and responsible…not so with a woman (any more, in the old days this was true…the reason they had a type of pillory for men who wouldn’t keep their wives in line).
Any woman who has to be hit should be kicked to the curb. She’s a dorito, there’s lots more.
I’m reminded of an incident long ago, back when we were stationed in Italy. The family that sponsored us when we arrived seemed really great, at first. As the weeks wore on I became better acquainted with the wife. She liked to spend a lot of money on baby sitters and took a lot of shopping excursions throughout Europe. She once bought 2 hobby horses from Austria that she refurbished….ended up costing them many thousands (can’t remember the exact number). That was the most p*ssy whipped guy I’ve ever met in my life. I was there once, when she stormed into his office and started yelling at him for some mundane bullish*t I can’t even remember….think he forgot to pick up the drycleaning or something. He was the commander and that’s how she treated him in front of his subordinates….this is the guy they’re supposed to take orders from.
That’s the last time I ever hung out with her. She DID deserve a beat-down, and THEN should have been kicked to the curb. But if he’d ever grabbed his sack even one time and told her off, she would have treated him entirely differently. I wish I’d done it, but I was young and afraid of her too (not the same person I am today).
“I can see deti’s vision of the unwanted eighty percent retreating to studio apartments and solitary pursuits but, that can’t last. They have no interest in the future and if they feel that society has disowned them,they’re correct.”
Yes, society disowned them. They checked out because there’s no real future for them. As I said, where women find collective solutions because they’re herd creatures; men find individual solutions because at the end of the day they have to go it alone. If a man cannot or will not pull his own weight, no one will give a shit about him.
But you’re wrong when you say it can’t last. Yes it can, and for a long time. Women and automation have taken the jobs they used to do. Women will pay that tax base (they won’t figure this out for a generation or two), and will marry a few of the best looking and most interesting men despite those men’s lower status. Women still want to marry for the status despite the fact that their husbands will be kitchen bitches.
Working women will fund the welfare state that pays for their medical care (and for that of baby mamas, drug addicts, sick women and obese women). They won’t start figuring it out until they have to write big checks to the IRS. Still more will figure it out when they divorce their boy toys under court orders to pay alimony and child support to those boy toys (because it’s only “fair”, you see). It’s only then that real reform will happen, if it does at all. But reform will not happen because men were getting screwed over; it will be because everyone will see, and want to remedy, the effects on women. No one cares when these policies have adverse effects on men; but they DO care very much when women start getting hit with those effects. Because there is no equality. Men and women aren’t equal and never will be.
And finally, some believe that simply pointing all this out is misogyny. Simply pointing out preferential treatment women receive is misogyny. Simply pointing out unfair treatment men receive is misogyny. Simply pointing out disparate impacts of these policies on men is misogyny. Insisting that women bear the full brunt of the policies they wanted is misogyny.
SFC Ton said:
well if they know the threat is ligit they tend to behave as well.
the usa will be destroyed by the importation of the third world-ers before the gender wars take full effect.
I respect Liz highly, but this comment illustrates why women will never be red pill:
“Any woman who has to be hit should be kicked to the curb. She’s a dorito, there’s lots more.”
My son #2’s mother is a fruit loop. I’ve previously discussed some of her fun behaviors, including the violent ones. As a result of kicking her to the curb, instead otherwise putting her in her place, because I believed every line of shit about having rights in divorce, I have been arrested, lost a 10,000 s.f. house that I spent 1.5 years renovating, and had my parenting relationship destroyed.
I’ve not hit a woman in my life and I’m sure I’d be lousy at it. The challenge, however, is that a man has to accept losing his home, money, family and reputation should a woman decide to drop the State on him. And she gets to decide that, unilaterally. Newsflash: if the ex- is an alpha widow, her rage and desire to cripple the man elevates, because she doesn’t want any other woman to benefit from him. This is true even she is the one pulling the ripcord on the marriage.
The only woman you can ‘kick to the curb’ is a woman you have not married or impregnated. It’s just a feminist lie that men have agency in divorce. A man can hope to get lucky in divorce, and many do, but luck is never a strategy. And god forbid her one regret in the divorce is not screwing him ever again.
Point taken, BV. You’re absolutely right.
I can see what you are saying bv. From what you have shared about her, I am not sure she would not have gone the way she did no matter what. Maybe being the scary baddie would have kept her in line, more likely it would have just been more to throw at you.
@bv I hope that didnt come across wrong, what you have gone thru is a nightmare. She certainly deserved a pop, and I wouldn’t normally say such. But I am glad you didn’t bc I do fear she would have had you thrown in jail on top of the rest.
Perhaps Ton is right there is a place for his scorched earth, “I’ll gladly fry in the chair after doing in you and all your kin if you dare cross me, woman” approach. Just planting that seed, combined with his obvious ability to do so, is likely enough to keep ton’s gals in line.
Me, on the other hand, it would be far too much. Twice now I have seen my fiancé almost yell at me, remember that even giving me the evil eye freaks me out, and then he’ll gently say whatever he doesn’t want me to do again. Even so, I don’t forget! And will feel so bad for letting him down. So depends on the gal. My oldest daughter is the same, all I have to do is give her a look and she tows the line.
Well, Bloom, I am not Ton and could not manage a relationship with even the threat of my returning punches. But I should have made her behavior much more expensive emotionally, and made clear that she would have her second divorce on her hands (this terrified her, as her first marriage lasted only 3 months, and she’s in a professional cohort that stays married even when they hate each other). Being blue pill, instead, I just resolved to “teach her how to love”, and show by example how married people should treat each other. This is how my father has kept his marriage with my mother intact (she’s mentally ill, in and out of psych hospitals all my life), by being a drafthorse self-sacrificial guy who let her bully him and their children.
And when I decided to leave, I should not have believed my lawyers (as to the system’s fairness). I should have just taken my son back to Virginia and negotiated from that position, rather than try to litigate my way back into a parental role. Basically, I did everything wrong, acting on the basis that if I managed my new family the way my father and grandfathers managed theirs, everything would be cool.
I imagine you don’t hit your fiancé, kill his children’s pets; I doubt you’ll accuse him of adultery four weeks after you’re married, defraud him into pregnancy, or steal his art, books, clothing and furniture. I don’t think you should spend any time comparing yourself to the whack jobs many of us have known.
@ bv true, I have not done any of those things nor could I imagine it. 😦 I definitely do not condone it. It is true, men should know these stories and they should know how the courts work and how the laws are, have no illusions at all about that. Because you are right, if they do not know, the worst can happen all too easily. It’s not right, but if it is what it is, men should know so they can protect themselves. Agreed.
Emily L said:
Ton-yes, that article seemed stupid, poorly written, and not very well thought out. But considering *objective journalism* has been nonexistent in the past 1.5 decades or so, it’s not surprising. -1 on the beatings.
BV-I saw that Dataclysm article. I guess it really is a mad mad mad mad world after all. Everything is everything. It’s interesting how heterosexual marriage has disintegrated into a we-are-one, peace-love-and-pot way, next seems to be transgender issues. After that? Well, maybe actual rather than the current implied limits on reproduction.
The only male role models the media praises are the fruitcakes, and it’s kind of sad to see how the traditional family structure has disintegrated. There are new normals…which kind of reminds me of a show I’m not sure I love anymore, Downton Abbey. In just a few seasons so many things have changed, and I guess what people sometimes forget is that not all change is good. Progress and change aren’t always the same.
As for combat warfare, I understand the concept and I recognize that it all exists, but where’s the self-respect in a person who finds it a good use of their time to scheme and plot and obsess and what not? It seems pretty desperate and low-class behavior wrt the doers. It’s usually people w low self-esteem/insecure, emotional instability, and/or mental illness who are pathetic shits who have nothing better to do w their time. As for the defenders aka those faced w shenanigans, ignoring altogether is probably best. Most people aren’t worth the time.
Which makes me think more about Bloom’s point about women being the basis for men’s actions. Living life to please people (men or women) is just another opportunity for disappointment. Relationships are important to cultivate–healthy relationships…. I think if all men woke up tomorrow and decided to not go crazy chasing after women, keep their pants on, reject women w drama, and maybe just focus on doing their own positive thing, whatever that is, (probably all unlikely things) women w their shenanigans will subside over time. Probably unlikely too. I really enjoy living in my mental bubble. It’s a wonderful place!
I apologize in advance if this post becomes TL;DR. It may get spanned across more than one comment if that is the case.
Soft Power vs Hard Power:
Soft Power – What I call “the power to influence”. It is outcome independent. This is the exercise of will to influence the outcome of events. Those that hold Hard Power still have to make a decision in the presence of Soft Power, but all sources of Soft Power can and should be considered. An example of this is a board meeting where the meeting chair is tasked with making some action happen. The other members of the board are exerting Soft Power. Low risk in making a request.
Hard Power – What I call “the power to dictate”. It is outcome dependent (something must happen). This is the exercise of will and resources to cause an outcome of events. It may be done through delegation, such as a general giving orders to his troops to be carried out. Those that exercise Hard Power have ownership of their decisions, as well of ownership (accountability) of all the positive and negative consequences of making those decision. Could be high risk in making a bad decision.
Some Other Concepts In Terms Of Power:
Shit Test – A woman testing a man to see if he will hold Hard Power, be decisive, and take ownership of consequences. Will he dictate, even if that means he puts a check on her Hard Power?
Indicator of Interest/Approach Invitation – Will a man respond to a women’s Soft Power request to approach/engage by exercising Hard Power to approach/engage?
Indicator of Disinterest – Exercising a Soft Power subcommunication to tell a man to disengage or not to approach.
Okay, here is where the power dynamic gets interesting. Let us assume the perfect Red Pill model as espoused by the Manosphere. When a women enters into a partnership with a man, she abdicates her Hard Power to the man but reserves the right to Soft Power over him. When he exercises Hard Power over her, it is sexy (flirting with alpha male, passing shit tests). When she gets a positive outcome from exerting Soft Power, it is sexy (woman asks for and receives what she wants). The man still his the burden of making decisions, and the burden of holding responsibility for outcomes and consequences. The woman is forbidden from using sex/affection as a Hard Power negotiating tool for exchanging value, but may be allowed to use Soft Power to solicit presents.
Where it gets pathological is when for whatever reason the man hands over the Hard Power to the woman. Now he is using Soft Power to solicit concessions (sex) from the woman. She is using an unholy mixture of Hard and Soft Power to get him to do things (honey-do list, nagging, bartering sex for favors or material goods, shaming). If he becomes whipped she’ll just directly order him around, and possibly shame him in public. Nobody is comfortable with this dynamic, and the mutual attractiveness rapidly approaches zero.
Now, is it possible to do Hard Power sharing in a partnership of equals? In theory, yes, but the domains of who decides what needs to be strictly defined and vigorously enforced. For example, each may master their own career path, he may handle the finances, and she may handle operations of the household. Within each sphere one partner or the other has to exercise final say (Hard Power) and be held accountable for outcomes.
Can a woman follow this model of Red Pill? If the man she is with is decisive and the better risk taker, then the only thing getting in her way is ego. However, her brains could get the better of her. I can continue this line of thought if the thread has interest.