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casual sex, dating, escorts, feminism, marriage, provision, red pill, relationships, sex, sugar baby, sugar bowl, sugar daddy, traditional
Somehow I recently stumbled upon information about a growing new market in online dating: sugar daddy/sugar baby websites.
Now for starters don’t get me wrong here, I am not endorsing such an approach, nor advocating women sign up for a sugar daddy website.
But there is something about it that is all very red pill somehow, although I am not sure I can put it into words. Not that it’s stopped me before, lol, so I will try.
Something I find really interesting about it is the outrage from feminists in particular about the idea. Seems it flies smack in the face of the “single independent woman” mantra.
As if somehow it’s OK to have a “sexually positive” relationship with a man, but only if it also contains no expectations of provision or protection in return.
Somehow one night stands and casual hookups are completely ok, without any emotional ties or connections, but God forbid a woman have a more traditional relationship where she is in an exclusive committed relationship with man who cares for her emotionally, physically, and/or financially because that would be akin to oppression, or prostitution, or something.
The almost schizophrenic reasoning behind it can be seen all over in both popular culture and society at large. Young girls are encouraged to explore their sexuality, freely, and for free, no strings attached a la Sex in the City while the young married stay at home mom is seen as some sort of outdated oddity who couldn’t possibly be happy.
In a weird way the sugar baby rules of “no nookie until a financial agreement is struck” seem almost refreshingly Victorian in a casual sex world. Ironically, it’s the gals who sign up for such sites but try to play the game by today’s rules (give up nookie, hope for an arrangement in return) who seem to be the ones complaining of getting “taken advantage of” by sugar daddy’s who then disappear. (Surprise!) Boo hoo. No Louboutin shoes or Gucci bag to show for it, either! Waaa. (BTW: there are much more important things in life, but that’s another post…)
Again, don’t get me wrong, I am not advocating a sugar baby lifestyle is the way to go. But a return to a more traditional relationship dynamic where expectations of provisioning and protection proceed physical relations might not be such a bad idea after all.
What do you think, readers? Is it wrong for a woman to expect provision or protection? Old fashioned and outdated? Does that make a woman a victim? A user? Cheapen her? Turn sex into a transaction?
And what about from a male point of view? Is it exploitation if a woman says no agreement, no kitty? Or is it all-in-all a livable deal?
Talk amongst yourselves…
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
I wasn’t aware that feminists had taken a position on sugar daddy relationships. To me, it all reeks of making sex a transaction, so it is something to be avoided.
To be honest, it also puts a damper on my appetite. That is something, coming from a bear.
@ fuzzie I was surprised myself re: the feminist take. Agreed, the practice itself isn’t something I would advocate but I do think there’s some kernal of something to the concept that regular women could learn something from. Not to make sex a transaction, yet at the same time to hold some value of herself. It’s hard to put into words… And a fine line.
Redpillgirlnotes,
I have seen various reports about the sugar babies. They portray them as being uniformly mercenary. It’s not about what a relationship is supposed to be.
I think that your concerns may be along other lines. Perhaps a girl looking to start something who takes a risk offering physical intimacy.
The feminisys threw the ruld book out the window back in the seventies. Now, nobody has any idea of what to expect.
@ fuzzie I actually had the same initial impression, but after reading up on some blogs and such written by these gals, they actually (sometimes) had some surprisingly good advice that I think could transfer to “normal” relationships like:
Value yourself
Your personality matters, not just your looks
Don’t be an entitled brat, don’t set your bar too low
It’s a relationship not a transaction
Don’t do anything you aren’t comfortable with
Etc.
But yes, there are also the ones who just want a 10k month allowance because they exist and have no concept that even sugar relationships good provide value for BOTH parties.
I realize it’s a stretch — but I think somewhere in all that chaff there are some kernals of wisdom that can (again) be applied to more traditional dating.
@ fuzzie another thing I noticed about many of the more successful ones is they are very man friendly, get what men are needing and wanting, were comfortable being feminine, etc.
And yes there were gold digging mercenary ones too for sure. I don’t mean to glorify things…
Redpillgirlnotes,
I never saw anything positive but, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t there. What you mentioned sounds a lot like the role of a traditional courtesan. They would florish in a normal relationship too.
$10k a month??? Of the few that could afford it, who would want to spend it?
True Fuzzie, it did sound a bit like a courtesan in many ways, from those I am describing. Badpainter said the same re: escorts, long ago…that they “get men” for lack of a better way to say it.
As for 10k a month, agreed — seems pretty excessive. I think a lot of those gals expecting that were the wanna be types…
If girls lived at home until they married, this would not be an option for young women. While they seek security, it’s understood to be temporary and revokable at either party’s will.
“yet at the same time to hold some value of herself.”
This. This type of arrangement is tough for me to try to understand, even from a woman’s perspective. I don’t really have any good reasons to oppose the sugar baby/daddy relationship. Some say it’s disempowering for women, but there are good arguments as to how it’s actually the opposite. I mean, aside from those women who are giving it away to anyone with nothing is return, we all place some value on our sexuality, whether it be commitment, money, gifts, etc. Although, it’s even harder for me to understand why men would want to participate in this if they could get one of those women who would give it away for nothing.
Good points Ashley. I wondered that about the guys too, from what I could gather for many it was about companionship as well as sex (and sometimes there isn’t sex), sort of a girlfriend style relationship, minus the drama, complexity, and complication. If he’s married, it’s a way to ensure discretion vs. a girl on the side. For Unmarried guys it was often about having an ongoing relationship that would not lead to marriage or the financial risks of marriage. And believe it or not, for many the “spoiling and taking care of” a woman part was satisfying, they got to be the “provider” of days gone by.
Actually on both sides it turned out to be a lot more to it than I’d ever realized. Like any relationship dynamic, there’s more to it than meets the eye, and in some cases it seems to work well and can go on for years.
And of course there are many not good examples and reasons and stories of abuse of power and control on both sides, as well, so again I don’t mean to glorify it.
Now that I think on this more, some other reasons guys gave were time constraints from their jobs (sb’s didn’t expect as much time as a regular gf) or one an said in her experience some of the Sd’s were very successful and intelligent but not that socially adept, so some went the sb route for that reason….
I spent waaay too much time reading various sb and sb blogs and personal accounts. Kind fascinating, actually! From a outsider point of view!
I wasn’t aware that feminists had taken a position on sugar daddy relationships. To me, it all reeks of making sex a transaction, so it is something to be avoided.
The bear correct he would be.
Remove the ambiguity it would.
This the feminists can not have.
Removes the ability to arbitrarily remove sex it does
I have given this a good night’s sleep and I am still confused. The one thing that I am certain of is that I would not like to see our beloved blog hostess go down this road.
There may not be much advantage in it for the guys, especially in light of this
“I would not like to see our beloved blog hostess go down this road.”
RPC: I hope Fuzzie is incorrect, that you are not considering becoming a sugar-chick.
Liz, talk her out of this!
@ Poseidon and Fizzie, no, no — no worries about me going down the sugar baby road! I was just examining the idea/dynamics for red pill gender relation reflection!
A few years back a successful local biz man who works in a related industry told me after I found myself suddenly solo that what I needed was a sugar daddy. I am not the quickest so I didn’t realize at the time he was hinting he was willing (he’s married.) I just laughed off the idea immediately and said, “gosh sounds like too much complexity to me!” I see him about once a year and he’s dropped the hint each time since but I just play dumb and change the subject. Adultery’s not my style… Bad juju! 🙂
Redpillgirlnotes,
How did you come to know so many wrong men?
Good to know that you won’t go down that road.
Did you watch the “rinsers” video? Aren’t they awful?
@ fuzzie, I know this won’t get much sympathy but as a woman, men are nearly constantly making offers and testing the waters. So they aren’t just “bad men” although the ones who do approach boldly unfortunately also skew toward the “bad boy” category because they are comfortable approaching, having taken the risk often before. Probably another post but women notice the ones who approach, my theory why the so-called bad boys get the girls is bc they
ask, and ask, and ask again! So I say no a lot more than I say yes. It’s just the way it works on the girl side of the game. It may sound great from a male pov, but actually it has it’s own challenges.
I am not at a spot w wifi but will watch the video when I am! 🙂
Fizzie
Sounds like a bear-shaped Alka-Seltzer it does
the ones who do approach boldly unfortunately also skew toward the “bad boy” category because they are comfortable approaching,
Perhaps a warning sign this should be.
“Too much comfort” implies the bad boy it might
An example of excellent at approach and sales Bill Clinton it would be
Farm Boy,
It sounds like a new product that comes in different colors and flavors. Put them in water and have fun!
Redpillgirlnotes,
I have heard that. It is doscouraging.
Indeed Yoda, I would say that’s often the case. Not always…but of he’s a smooth talker and working the moves easily… He’s likely done it many times before!
Indeed, Slick Willie just saddles right on up with a grin and a pitch, I am sure! Lol
@ Fuzzie, not to brag but case in point, thisorning I had a biz meeting downtown so I was dressed up (dress, boots, jewlery, hair and makeup) and by noon I’d gotten at least 8 obvious IOIs. No approaches, but had I given any encouragement it’s likely some may have. Others may have just been window shopping. Hard to say. But as a woman, I can see why gals walk around w their “bitch shield” up, avoid eye contact, etc.
Once I heard a guy describe it as when he went w a gal pal to what turned out to be a mostly male gay bar, and he was the object of (unwanted) attention, he got it how it feels to be a woman at a regular bar. Lol.
Wow Fuzzie, I started watching the Rinsers movie and I see what you mean! Blech!
I’m not a fan of that super made up look, plastic, but I suppose some guys must be based on their results! Weird!
They’re so insincere as well, must be good at tresses when charming their mark!
Aren’t they awful? However, they are getting anything and everything they want. I guess that counts as winning.
As for all the intrest that comes your way, you’re good looking and you may be the top three percentile in your age group. However, consider what a man would have to go through just to get a coffee date. It would not surprise me if a lot of truly available men just drop out.
If you only saw five minutes of “rinsers”, you undrstand the premise. I just gets redundant after that.
@ Fuzzie, I suppose they are getting everything they want… sad really that to gather “upscale” material goods are their seeming only life goal. These are the kind of women who have a serious life crisis when they get to an age where they aren’t at “the top” anymore.
As for me being in the top 3%, I highly doubt that dear bear! But thank you. 🙂 I am actually quite ordinary, not at all “glam” or whatever those girls are. And I am totally ok with it.
As for what a man would have to go through to get a coffee date…it would probably start with, “Hi, you look like a nice gal. Would you like to get coffee sometime?”
Redpillgirlnotes,
As for being in the top 3%, considering that you are not overweight gets you to the top 20% on that factor alone. The details add up fast. It was not a compliment.
The outdated designer goodies will not keep them warm at night when they are past it.
Asking a girl out is tough. While the man has to be prepared for a negative response, it all too often is in the negaive. After a while, he knows that it is not bad luck.
How did you come to know so many wrong men?
Good question this is.
Perhaps newly found wisdom improve selection ability it would
@ Fuzzie, so out of curiosity I looked at the “wish list” of the model mentioned in the Rinser movie, one of her admirers left a really crude note under purchase of a $160,000 diamond ring. Apparently he didn’t get the “there won’t be any sex in exchange” memo and was NOT happy. Sounds like a pretty dangerous game, really. Besides a shallow one.
of a $160,000 diamond ring. Apparently he didn’t get the “there won’t be any sex in exchange” memo and was NOT happy. Sounds like a pretty dangerous game, really.
Dalrock said he did,
These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.
They want this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose control to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.
They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.
One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actual amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimic would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of control. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.
Thrills, excitement and money they do desire. And always safe it should be. Unless a Jedi Knight accompanying you do have, safe you might not be.
Redpillgirlnotes,
I don’t remember that part but, it doesn’t surprise me. These women are taking men for a ride and there are risks to that lifestyle. They can only keep it up short term, so there is no investment to make log term workable.
I’m thinking women are wired, at a very basic level, to expect something IN RETURN FOR sex, and this applies to women who like sex a lot as well as those who are more indifferent to it. The “something” can be status, protection, resources, any of a number of things; but when women have sex and this expectation is NOT satisfied, even when it was not conscious, they feel like something is wrong.
It seems likely that a fair % of false rape accusations are motivated by this “I didn’t get what I was expecting” feeling.
While I can see women believing men to be indebt for sex, that is not all. There is a presumption of debt even if there is no sex. It gets outrageous with the “rinsers”.
You may have hit on one of the primary factors feeding false rape. This may be one of the sources of “regret”.
http://www.travelgirls.com
“This is not an escort service” [Toad looks at all the profiles with “private” photos, thinks “Seems legit, private photos are only for qualified applicants who need extra incentive to pay for plane tickets, hotel accommodations, fine dining, shopping, presents, etc..]
This site actually brings new meaning to the phrase “test drive” and if you think about it, it demonstrates the provisioning capability of the man, the willingness of the woman and it all takes place in a neutral environment (travel to a third location)
For anyone with the time to do photo comparisons, less than half the women from the US post a photo, but well over 90% of the girls from the Ukraine post a photo. After looking at the photos of the women from Eastern Europe it’s obvious to me why women from the US don’t want to post a photo for comparative purposes.
And not as OT as you might think, from my favorite cartoon:
@ Al I would agree that women do expect something in return, even when not concious of it, even when they say they don’t. I saw this with a college roommate of mine (not the one in my last post but her too, actually) the roomie would go into something saying “no strings, it’s cool” but then after the hookup every single time she’d be letdown when it didn’t “go somewhere.” I think it’s biological most likely, until very recently sex inevitably equalled babies and so women needed a mate to provide resources and protection while she was incapacitated by pregnancy/infants. I’d agree it’s hardwired… Thanks for commenting, don’t be a stranger!
Lol Toad likely right re the photos! I’ll have a look…;)
I am not going to sign up to check things out on my own. I’ll concede tha tToad has the right of it. In a sense, it sounds like short term dating taken out of town where the girls are anonymous. If the guy is picking up all the expenses, thismay fly with tsome girls.
I didn’t sign up either Fuzzie. I dunno, going on vacations w a total stranger? Seems dangerous (see the dalrock post above)
Redpillgirlnotes,
You wouldn’t do it because you have a brain in your head and you have the Bloomettes to look after. I believe that a lot of women would go for it because they’re light on the former. No one at home will know.
@ fuzzie sounds like a good way to end up “disappearing” in a foreign country. Truly a gal would be pretty stupid I’d think to do that! One might end up sold to a brothel or something.
Redpillgirlnotes,
There was a gal that I dated that would have had no limits if she got a trio to Mexico. I didn’t buy into it and found out that she had limits at home. Dodged a bullet on that one.
As C3PO said after Chewbacca mounted his head on backwards, “I’m so confused”.
If you were kidnapped by pirates, in no time you would make yourself indispensible and they would hold you in respect.
@ fuzzie when I was in Mexico there were posters all over of a gal who had just disappeared. I remember wondering then if she’d had too many drinks and wandered into the wrong hands. We’re I kidnapped by pirates, I am not sure I’d bother trying to charm them, I’d likely just jump overboard and take my chances w the sharks!
Redpillgirlnotes,
You know how to make alcoholic beverages. Pirates like that. 🙂
Learning that, they’re not going to mess with you.
@ Fuzzie:
Maybe the pirates would use the alcoholic beverage as a marinade with which to marinate her in, both before and while roasting her. During the pre-roast marination she might be able to ingest enough to muster up the nerve to dive into the ocean and swim for it.
Maybe I outta attend shark school so I can qualify to wait by the pirate’s ship for my opportunity. Or maybe I should find a different hobby?
What happened to Liz?
Poseidon,
What a terrible idea! Marinating and then cooking women. Better to drop them off at Port Royal so they can serve pirates at inns.
I don’y know what happenhed to Liz. Last night, I made an inquity on anothe blog. I wouldn’t worry too much. She is hard on herself for spending too much time on the internet, so she occaisionally drops out.
Speaking of pirates…
I have been missing Liz too, hope she reappears soon! As for pirates and alcoholic beverages, yes I know how to make them but the trouble is it takes a long time and I’d have to endure the pirates in the meantime
I’d take the sharks.
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It is very encouraging that sugar dating continues to grow throughout the world.