attraction, bad boys, battle of the sexes, break ups, casual sex, commitment, courtship, dating, divorce, gender, marriage, projection, red pill, relationships
As the commenter quoted in this post reveals, many of the problems women bemoan in relationships aren’t caused so much by men, but by women reading male behavior through a female lens (and yes, in the reverse, too, but this blog is aimed at women so that’s why this post is geared toward women.)
The concept is called projection, and it can be seen causing strife in male/female relationships in all sorts of ways.
The problem with projection is that often it flies under the conscious radar, so the person doing the projecting doesn’t even realize it.
One example could be how women obsess and will endlessly read the tea leaves of male behavior to determine if a guy is truly interested in her, or not.
At the same time guys say it’s as basic as, “if he’s talking to you, he likes you.”
So why the confusion? If they are honest with themselves, women often operate a so-called beta orbiter network. These beta orbiters are within the “let’s just be friends” zone, but girls will often pretend that maybe she likes him or could like him to get him to do boyfriend-like things for her (like take her out when she doesn’t have a “real” date or provide boyfriend-like emotional support.)
Sometimes (or depending on the girl, often) she’ll string them along with romantic gestures or some physical intimacy in order to gain favors or keep him on the hook as part of her “backup plan.” (Note, I am not saying it is good or fair to the guy. It’s not. At the same time it’s just something females do for some reason, so one has to consciously NOT do it. I suspect it is a subconscious safety thing, but again it’s just as unfair to do to a guy as it is for a guy to string a gal along.)
In turn, the beta orbiters may be projecting as well, believing that if she talks to him she likes him holds true for women, too.
As mentioned in the first linked post, women obsessing about whether a guy will leave her after he’s made a commitment or if he really likes her or not is a reflection of the fact that often women can and will leave a guy if a better one comes along or string a guy they don’t like romantically along in that very way. (Note: Yes, sometimes guys also don’t commit, but that’s for different reasons than why women break commitments or have beta orbiters.)
Compounding the issue is that most dating advice for women is rife with projection nonsense. In short, making it pretty worthless advice. Why? It’s usually written by women who are themselves projecting. (If you want relationship advice about guys that is much more helpful, seek it from a guy!)
Next time you find yourself spinning in your relationship, ask yourself if perhaps projection is to blame? The cool thing about recognizing projection is that once you start to be aware of it, you can see it all over!
Can you think of examples of projection? Or do you think it doesn’t exist?
(p.s. The Red Pill is often criticized as misogynistic, and while some commenters, bloggers, and participants on red pill forums may be that, in general it’s really not about saying “all men are evil” or “all women are evil” as much as it is looking at these subconcious/biological drives and behaviors of each gender and how they play out in real life. In fact, I believe being aware of them can help improve relationships, as well as help head off problems. The key thing is to not take these discussions personally.)
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Kind of like Degoba this post is.
Perhaps because RPG said it all she did
As for projection, there is a reason that men go bald. It’s from scratching their heads.
As for beta orbiters, I think that this may be relatively new. It’s as if women need a whole network of men for various support. To the girls- don’t do this. You are stringing him along. To the guys- get the heck out. You are being strung along.
@ Fuzzie, I have a feeling in days past, when girls were more supervised and not allowed to act like they do today, they weren’t able to have orbiters. Or at least not as openly as now. Women have probably always had the mindset of, “if needed, who would I pick next, and next after that…” It’s somewhat hypergamy, and also somewhat self protection from days when you probably lost your mate perhaps multiple times in a lifetime and had to replace him quickly for the sake of yourself and your offspring? Remember, this programming goes way, way back… like before recorded time.
I can understand that but, I don’t think that it applies to orbiters. These guys will always be there to confer favors and the favors will always go one way. They are not alrenate mates.
Of course if husband a woman does have,
Orbiters she needs not
Fuzzie, remember Scarlett O’Hara? If she couldn’t have the one she wanted, she’d take the one she could get. Not that it was good for them, but she’s a good example of having beta orbiters…
@ Yoda, one would think but I have even seen married women have beta orbiters, such as her work-husband or whatever. Indeed they can… or at least in an Eat, Pray, Love culture.
One aspect of female projection is when they ask their man what he is thinking. He replies (truthfully) that he is thinking about nothing, then the woman insists that he should tell her what he is thinking about.
Men actually do think about nothing, sometimes.
Artisanal Toad said:
At the same time guys say it’s as basic as, “if he’s talking to you, he likes you.”
Ummm… sometimes not.
Some women draw me like a moth to a flame, not because I’m drawn to their light but because their delusional bubble is just so big I feel compelled to pop it. Hindenburg, meet lightening strike. I especially like the girls with skrillex haircuts. “How much do they pay you at the beauty college to let the new ones experiment on you like that?”
Like the delusional fatty a few weeks ago in the booth next to me who was loudly yapping to her friends about her fear of being raped: I couldn’t help it. “Honey, you’re perfectly safe here, none of the guys is wearing a tie and I don’t see anything else that could be used as a blindfold, so you can stop worrying about being raped.”
“You don’t have to be blindfolded to be raped!”
“Hon, the only way you get raped is if the guy who does it gets blindfolded first.”
That turned a boring solo meal into a wonderful 30 minute exercise in outrageously proving every manosphere trope about loud feminist fatties that I’ve ever read. It was hilarious and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
As to projection, they did accuse me of hitting on them, so I had to explain the rather unique characteristics I look for in women and while they got highly offended at my distaste for women who are not height-weight proportionate, they couldn’t help but try to qualify themselves in other areas… none of which I had mentioned.
Why, of course I wanted a strong independent woman full of snark and sarcasm. Who wouldn’t? I’m a man, right?
I had to explain it again using small words in simple declarative sentences without any dangling participles, although I dearly wanted to. Yet, they still didn’t get it.
Wait. You want what? What the hell does ‘team player’ mean?
I was forced to demonstrate with a fork, three spoons and some coffee creamer.
Alas, it was too much for their tender outlook on life and they left.
The waitress was by then laughing so hard it must have been difficult for her not to pee in her pants. After they left she told me she was surprised they didn’t ask for my phone number. More projection, I think. I told her the truth, that I wouldn’t touch one of those things with a 10-foot pole unless there was a harpoon attached to the end of it. That got me more hysterical laughter, a refill on my coffee and a free slice of cheesecake. I tipped her well and told her I was glad I’d been able to brighten up her day.
@ gumedo, a friend who is a couples counselor tried to explain that to me once. She said it’s like static, on a TV, no thoughts. As a woman, my brain is constantly talking, even talking over itself! So I could not even imagine thinking…nothing. Lol. Must be nice 🙂 Women’s brains are like a hamster in a wheel, running faster and faster.
OMG Toad, too funny! I am sure they left there absolutely SURE you wanted them, or if not that they will be dreaming of you for some years to come….
I am curious what exactly you did with the fork, three spoons, and the coffee creamer…or maybe I don’t want to know! 🙂
This kind of reminds me of a story, I was at the bar with two occasional employees after they helped me out with a wedding at my place (I rent it for farm weddings on the side). One gal who is on the plus side, obnoxiously loud, married, four kids, always going on about how she’s unhappy, considering frivorce, and thinking life as a single would just be so glamorous (puh-lease!) was making a complete idiot of herself oogling these two guys a few tables over who were EASILY 4 points + out of her league, and yet in her delusional mind they were looking at her and she had a chance. They and I exchanged uncomfortable glances, all knowing the true reality was not even if they were drunk-drunk, and yet she just continued on… thinking she was the cat’s meow and they both wanted to take her home!
I started noticing a male version of the orbiter, where several men will allow one or two women to stand around while they do their own thing. Almost like a communal female, but without a sexual motive. She was never dating one of them, but they kept her around for her presence.
This was in the Marine Corps, where a sexual harassment or assault charge will end you. We all started to figure out not to shit in our nest. That might have had something to do with the dynamic. The men would withdraw, and women would want to follow.
The Shadowed Knight
Yeah, Toad, I talk with women for all kinds of reasons–even if sex isn’t on my mind.
Girls are so silly sometimes. One girl thinks I want to fuck another with whom I won’t even dance. The girl with whom I won’t dance has asked me six times and I refused six times. Really absurd. [grin]
Girls typically think that all men are hypnotized by the magic V, but it just ain’t so, hah.
Women want to be desired by attractive men and hamsterize that they are desired even when the women aren’t desired. Even chemistry is no guarantee of desire.
Artisanal Toad said:
I used them to explain the dynamics of 1 fork and three spoons, and “positioned” the fork and spoons in different ways as the narrative progressed. I used the creamer to signify a major event in the narrative that caused the fork and spoons to swap places with each other. I was polite and poked a hole in the top coffee creamer before I squeezed it, so it squirted on the spoon under the fork but didn’t hit anybody in the face.
I’d been calling the three of them winkin, blinkin and nod the whole conversation, and when I illustrated with the fork and spoon I named the spoons the same thing. That’s what had the waitress laughing hard. When I repositioned the spoons after that… she about lost it. She told me later that I should do a comedy show, but I think the girls left because the waitress wasn’t laughing at me so much as laughing at them and their reaction to what I did.
They didn’t know I had the coffee creamer in my hand and when I squeezed it? As they say, “priceless.”
I would agree it’s not as simple as “if he talks to you he likes you” but as the post that links to explains, guys don’t invest serious time (hanging out, going on dates, keeping in touch, etc) in women they aren’t interested in, for the most part. For example Toad talked to them, but did not offer his number, or get theirs, or plan to follow up, see what they are doing next week, hint or flat out invite them to meet up, etc. so really it’s more than talk to, more like going above and beyond to talk to/connect with. Not that it is any guarantee, but there are tells.
Toad next time you need to video that! Lol
Artisanal Toad said:
I have an aversion to creating incriminating evidence.
Were it not for the waitress I think the girls might have gotten over their shock and been amused, but nobody likes being laughed at. In California what I did would probably have qualified as sexual harassment.
Artisanal Toad said:
Not that it is any guarantee, but there are tells.
The problem for women is most guys don’t have any game and they won’t approach a woman they’re interested in. Women know this and I think it’s one of the reasons a woman can convince herself some guy really wants her but doesn’t approach her. In her mind he’s a hot guy that wants her, he doesn’t have the balls to approach so she can look down her nose at him and she won’t approach him because even though he’s hot he doesn’t have confidence… which means her fantasy doesn’t get popped by getting shot down in flames if she did approach. Win-win-win.
Women project, but their worst problem is they can’t control their attraction cues like men can. Men can literally choose to be attracted to a woman they were not initially attracted to but I’ve never seen or heard of that *genuinely* happening with a woman. A woman who is not attracted to a guy who then discovers he has the capacity to write checks with 6 zero’s on them and suddenly becomes attracted isn’t attracted to him, she’s attracted to that check writing ability.
The problem is that decent beta guy that doesn’t signal confidence and doesn’t swagger, wants to please her and sacrifice for her… turns her off. He repulses her. If women could control their attraction cues such that they were able to find one of the really decent guys attractive instead of being repulsed by them, their life would be easier. But, no, guys are just supposed to “get it” and be the alpha that generates the tingles.
Women want to chase the exciting, moving piece of yarn, not curl up on the yarn that was carefully woven into a warm blanket… unless she’s bored because there’s no yarn to chase or just tired, then she’ll appreciate the beta. But she won’t stay with the blanket. It’s not exciting. Doesn’t offer thrills. “Look! A piece of yarn! It’s moving!” She jumps off the blanket and chases the yarn, giving it all of her attention until she finally wanders back to the blanket, exhausted from another day’s play. Such is the difference between the alpha cad that’s like a moving piece of yarn and the steady beta who diligently wove the blanket thinking that providing a warm blanket was the sure ticket to getting the girl. Nope. Women are like cats and that dancing piece of yarn is just too attractive for them to ignore.
Even after she changes lanes and decides to “settle” for beta bux, the problem is she isn’t attracted to him and after a few years of marriage she’s bored to tears and when that five minutes of alpha comes along she’s all over it in a second like that cat chasing a piece of yarn. So what if she destroys everything her kind, decent, loving beta husband build and shits all over his love for her? He wasn’t exciting. He didn’t give her the tingles.
The hypergamy is part of the curse (your desire shall be for your husband) and because of that she was supposed to have strong social and cultural structures in place to keep her under control (he shall rule over you). Now, having torn down all the structures that were there to protect her from herself, she is free to self-destruct. Can anyone call what women have become today anything other than self-destructive?
Ok, yes, bat-shit crazy works just as well as self-destructive.
How do boys treat girls? They do not care about them. Girls are icky and have cooties. Boys only; no girls allowed.
So when women mistreat men and ask where the good men have gone…
The Shadowed Knight
Farm Boy said:
Now, having torn down all the structures that were there to protect her from herself, she is free to self-destruct.
A post about that there was,
What you say is all too true. There is a serious social drawback to what you see. What you describe isn’t fit to babysit, much less care for children full time.
But, no, guys are just supposed to “get it” and be the alpha that generates the tingles.
Betas have no excuse for not getting it. The Song of Solomon says for men to be the moving bit of yarn. Even with societal programming, the SoS continuously provides wisdom about romance. But men can’t read because of churchianity and the blinders that churchianity imposes on the SoS.
Tim LaHaye was the last pop Christian writer whom I can recall who said that, in the bedroom, anything goes. That’s a long time ago and is still controversial.
guys don’t invest serious time (hanging out, going on dates, keeping in touch, etc) in women they aren’t interested in
Bingo! Concise sexual economics right here. Elegant!
Thanks gamer! I suppose women should also keep in mind even if he’s showing all the right signs of interest, she should still access what he’s interested in exactly… It could be no term, short term, long term… And she should keep in mind her behavior also determines that, so she should make sure she doesn’t have anti-game that will decrease his estimation of her. That could be a post in itself…
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Sigma Frame said:
In my view, women keep the orbiter around so that they can (1) have their emotional needs met, (2) stay in their comfort zone, (3) don’t enter into redemption mode, (4) avoid the suffering involved with developing faith and maturity. This is a subtle, but greatly damaging sin that most women are not aware of. It’s hard to explain this phenomena, but this post might help. https://sigmaframe.wordpress.com/2009/12/12/growing-roots/
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