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attraction, bad boys, battle of the sexes, break up, break ups, casual sex, commitment, dating, divorce, feminism, marriage, red pill, relationships
I am often amazed at the choices some of the women I know make when choosing who to date. Time and again some seem drawn to so-called bad boys like a moth to a flame. Then, days, weeks, or months later, they will complain to anyone who will listen how he turned out to be — you guessed it — a bad boy.
What they are really saying, if they are honest with themselves, is that they thought they could domesticate that bad boy and turn him into that mythical bad boy with a heart of gold. A bad boy who was always good to her and only her. Except, it rarely seems to turn out that way. They may as well search for fried ice.
Experts will say perhaps it’s all those Disney movies, or stories of frogs turning into princes, or beasts turning into good guys that are to blame for the bad choices, but I think part of it can be linked to the way our cultural norms have changed in the past forty-plus years.
Today, women pair up with bad boys *because they can.* At one time such a choice would have been considered a disastrous hit to her social status, greatly reducing her odds of marrying well — or at all. Because of this, friends and family would likely have intervened, or simply forbid such a match.
In response to this some might say, “Thank goodness we don’t live in that world, anymore! Down with the patriarchy and oppression!”
But is it really better that women today are free to flirt with the danger of choosing to pair up with bad boys who won’t turn into the magical good guy when she snaps her fingers and wants him to turn into someone she (and their children) can count on?
For example, I know one such girl, a former next door neighbor, who has this bad boy addiction. And guess what? Yep, the bad boy father of her first two kids doesn’t pay child support, because he lives off his current girlfriend rather than work so he has no income to claim. And now the bad boy she left that one for has also turned out to be (surprise!) the frog he always was. Except she didn’t seem to realize that (besides his many, many red flags flying, repeated broken promises, pass out drunken dates, and drama filled relationship with his first child’s mom, among other warning signs over the two-plus years she chased him) until she was expecting his baby, due this coming April.
Yes, she is free today to make her own choices. But is that really such a good thing? Further, rather than see that her choices led her (and her children) into this bad situation, she continues to wail to anyone who will listen how “they did this to her.”
In reality, they are the same bad boys they were right from the start. And while she doesn’t admit it, I think deep down she knew that, but she just didn’t care. She told herself she could change them. But guess what? She couldn’t.
She’s really got nobody to blame but herself, and based on the results I’d wager at least for women like her, the safeguards of patriarchy might not have been such a bad thing after all.
But not to worry, I’m sure another bad boy will be along shortly….maybe this time things will turn out differently?
Let those who have ears hear.
Wise commentary here. I readily admit that I am drawn to the bad boy persona and, yes, I do think the stories of our time (e.g. Disney) are a key reason for this preference among women. But I also think it is because the story of redemption is written into each of our hearts. We are drawn stories of transformation because, deep down, we all know that we are broken, but we desire for everything to be made right. And, someday, it will. ❤ Rev. 21:4
Back in the day most young women were not allowed to choose their own husbands. Their parents did this for them. Or they were supervised so that they could only meet suitable men. Of course the social stigma of a divorce or getting pregnant without being married also helped young women to choose their men right.
Today young women can choose themselves and many choose badly. One could almost think that rational thinking is not a woman’s strength… 😉
By the way, in many non-Western cultures arranged marriages are still quite usual.
I’m a 28-year-old single woman living in America, and I recently (only half-joking) had a conversation with my dad about arranging a marriage for me. I trust his judgement, and I believe we would have a lot fewer divorces if people went into marriage realizing that love is a commitment that we make more than a feeling that comes and goes with time.
Yes, she is free today to make her own choices. But is that really such a good thing?
It would be IF the majority of girls were taught to be forward-thinking and wholly responsible for their own decisions, just the same as the majority of boys are. Then we’d have adult women and men making smart, educated decisions for the most part.
Unfortunately, this is not the case, and indeed never can be until the female half of the population is treated the same as the male half. It’s easy to say that most women aren’t rational when they aren’t taught that they must be, and are instead told from a young age that someone else will always be there to fix their mistakes or take care of them. This, plus the “poor princess, you are so oppressed by all of male-kind”, makes for the problems we see nowadays.
Ask much Tarn does.
“Better to have it both ways” women do think
@ Aurora, true I agree we all fall short and that the idea of transformation is a powerful one. And it’s even possible, but it’s a pretty big gamble to bet on the pre-self-reformed bad boy. People only change when they want to make those changes themself, not when someone else tries to change them.
Personally, I think this idea of asking your dad for guidance is a good one! I hope you meet your match soon 🙂 and thanks for commenting!
Agreed Phillip, good points! Thanks for adding that!
Interesting personal anecdote:
Not all gamers are nice/good guys or “betas”…there are a few that are the stereotypical Dark Triad “alpha” bad boys, in both looks and personality. For some reason, 3 of said BB customers have had their eye on me the past 3-6 months and have asked me out. Naturally, I declined.
My question is, what exactly makes them attractive to anyone in the first place? In my mind, an overly muscular male with ear piercings, tattoos, an ego the size of Manhattan, disrespectful methods of communication, and 1-3 baby mamas he owes child support to is the epitome of immaturity and is not remotely “tingles” inducing. I’d much sooner date a man who is sweet, kind, and collects action figures than one who is brash, puts out narcissistic vibes, and “collects” sex partners.
Ask much Tarn does.
Always, Master Yoda. 😉
As a fellow INTJ, you know the pressures we place ourselves and others under.
Yet we rarely ask for anything impossible, or that we’re unwilling to do personally.
@ Tarn and Yoda, wouldn’t that be great? Perhaps the very safeguards set up to protect women (and their children) from such decisions also remove the consequences of those decisions, unintentionally subsidizing women to make bad choices?
not that I would want women and children left in the cold. As Tarn said, it would be great if such gals could themselves choose more wisely.
Perhaps this is another post, but at one time I believe the elder women helped guide you get women toward better choices. Then came the sexual revolution and all the rest… And it flipped from that to the older generation of women encouraging the younger to “go for it! Explore!”
For one thing, the choice probably isn’t viewed as seriously given the existence (or at least the perception) of various safety nets. One would be comfortable taking more risks flying a flight simulator than flying a real airplane…
Re: generational models
I believe this to be the case, Bloom.
Or a piece of it, at least.
I think of how my younger sisters act (raised entirely by our mother) vs myself (raised by grandparents til mom got remarried when I was 8). Part of it is undoubtedly the fact that I’m significantly older than them and hence have Oldest Child Syndrome, but a large part also would appear to be different the…”moral”(?) systems we were brought up in.
Needless to say, they have exclusively dated bad boys and have never had a relationship last more than 1 year, despite sometimes living with said men. My own, while being atypical itself, has lasted nearly a decade. I am very worried for my sisters (and brother, who has similar difficulties), because they all wish to be parents and “live the dream”. I am always disregarded when attempting to tell them their current paths will lead only to nightmares… 😦
Good analogy, David! I also agree w the word “perceived” because as my former neighbor has found, living on safety nets is not anywhere close to having the safety of a high quality mate!
@ Tarn, yes, exactly. It’s like 1+1= 1/2!
Also @ Tarn, I don’t necessarily believe all alphas are bad boys or that all bad boys are alphas, but I do know the type you are describing and agree, I have never seen the appeal there, either!
While Tarn and RPG have avoided this, it dopes seem to be a common problem with women in the current time. Since it is out of the control of men, we can only stand by and watch. However, it is discouraging.
Agreed. I also am a little iffy about using the terms “Alpha” and “Beta”, especially when taken to mean “good/manly” and “bad/emasculated” like the manosphere sometimes does. I prefer “Beta” traits myself but that’s far from liking males who act as doormats/yes-men, either in or out of the home.
@ Tarnished. The misuse of biological terms is probably the biggest error made by manosphere types. There are no “Alphas” among humans.
The reformed rake exists, but you have to get to him after he’s reformed, not before, if that’s what you want to marry.
Yet, despite all that women say about how they prefer beta types, game still exists. Nevermind what they say, watch what they do. What they do is respond to alpha. Not just women, but men, too. Family, friends, strangers; it works on them all, when properly tuned.
The Shadowed Knight
Utterly lacking in the woman’s search for a jerkboy to reform into a protective provider is, per usual, any self-awareness by the woman. As described, she’s just an immature, capricious, selfish, destructive slutty bitch. Rather than examine that possibility, she projects her own conviction that she will transform from caterpillar to butterfly, if only George Clooney would choose her for his pet. It’s like listening to that chubby actress, who makes a living by stretching the acceptable boundaries of raunch, complain when a man makes an idle joke about … her stretching the acceptable boundaries of raunch. Yawn.
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“On the one hand, on the other hand …”
Schemer now claiming that someone who points out her plagiarism is “a misogynist.”
https://vid.me/e/pMhh?stats=1&tools=1
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My favorite relationship term, ‘Balance’ boldly resonates in this post.
Unicorns do exist because perfection is an illusion. Good, Bad boys do exist… just depends on how much ‘horn’ you can tolerate along with the desirable aspects of the personality type.
” For one thing, the choice probably isn’t viewed as seriously given the existence (or at least the perception) of various safety nets. One would be comfortable taking more risks flying a flight simulator than flying a real airplane…”
Yes.
I really don’t understand a lot of the cost to gains decisions people make (of all types, whether individuals or groups, financial, relationship-wise, this extends to politics as well).
I think the big indicator in this case is probably social cost (or absence). But the laws also provide incentives (and disincentives).
Laws and social taboos work together.
We have a weak social taboo against spitting gum onto the sidewalk. Singapore has a strong social taboo, and strong laws against it. It’s no surprise that Singapore’s sidewalks are a lot cleaner.
Side note: That was a pretty funny comedian skit. I wonder if he can sue Schumer for stealing his material?
Just to add: I don’t honestly know a lot of guys I’d classify as “bad boys” though. I can’t think of any at the moment. I know some idiots, but not really anyone who would actively try to cause harm.
Maybe my perceptions are different from others. Or maybe I’ve been very very sheltered.
Just off topic, thinking after participating on a debate forum where I had the temerity to explain that: What happened at Ruby Ridge was wrong, What happened at Waco was wrong, and the Oregon standoff people should not all “be slaughtered as terrorists”.
I was met by some seriously personally insulting commentary.
It’s unbelievable how ideologically divided the nation is becoming.
Fortunately the folks on my side appear to have all the firearms.
@ Liz, folks actually thought the Oregon guys should be shot or killed for protesting? Wow. That’s scary!
this isn’t Russia or Chona for Goodness sake!
That’s a common theme, Bloom. They believe them to be “terrorists”. Montel Williams also claimed they should all be killed. In fact, the prevailing “progressive” theme is that if they were minorities they would have all been killed already (yes, of course).
but not really anyone who would actively try to cause harm
Just a little bit of vibe needed it is.
“A little dab will do ya”
the prevailing “progressive” theme is that if they were minorities they would have all been killed already
A new level of stupid these people do define
So minorities want equal rights killings? That makes no sense!
wow people are stupid!
Yes, the stupid burns.
Per the “dab”.
It would help if there were some matrix or standard.
Could someone define “bad boy”? Other than a prison convict or psycho/sociopath?
The bad boys I am thinking of that my former neighbor dates are irresponsible, immature, drinks basically. Can’t hold a job, don’t want to hold a job, want their woman to figure it out for them. Lie, cheat, break promises… Stuff like that.
Then again, maybe she’s attracting the quality she herself is offering? She’s a whole lot of drama herself…
I am trying to think of an example of a minority protest ending in a give ambush and am drawing a blank.. . At least in recent history. The only thing I can think of was when the native Americans occupied Alcatraz island, but nobody was harmed there and it ended peacefully if I recall…
Which brings up another tangent, why is it groups who say they want “equal rights” always seem to go beyond that to wanting special rights and/or to oppress the group they felt were their oppressors? Feminists do this as well I have noticed…
Now imagine a minority protest inside a building, snowed in, in the middle of nowhere. Commiting no harm. We have violent mobs of people who burn and loot and no one calls them terrorists (though they kinda are).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Alcatraz
It was “forcibly” ended after two years, looks like, but nobody was slaughtered or killed
I can’t think of any more recent examples, can anyone else?
The recent occupy movement, while not a minority one, was made up of a diverse group. They were not shot or killed. Hummm
“The bad boys I am thinking of that my former neighbor dates are irresponsible, immature, drinks basically. Can’t hold a job, don’t want to hold a job, want their woman to figure it out for them. Lie, cheat, break promises… Stuff like that.”
I’m trying to imagine this.
“Here’s my man! He’s an irresponsible, immature, liar and cheat who can’t hold a job! He’s such a bad boy….stay away from this man, ladies, he’s all mine.”
Lol I know, huh Liz? But in both cases these guys actually do have multiple plates! Boggles the mind…
Modern bad boys more about vibes than deeds it is (at least outside of cities it is).
Term “bad boys” usually taken too literally it is.
There’s been conflicting definitions of alpha and beta since before I discovered the sphere about four years ago. I believe we need to differentiate between the moral tagging of bad-boy and the more objective characteristics of alpha or beta.
An alpha male is:
1. A man who women are sexually attracted to.
2. A man who others readily follow.
3. A man who other men wish they could be like.
4. A man who is decisive and confident.
A beta male is:
1. He can be either not at all sexually attractive, but he could be somewhat attractive with other characteristics holding him back from alphaness.
2. He is not readily followed by others; mostly a follower.
3. He might have strong opinions, but does not assert his will and instead forgoes his will by readily following another, especially readily following women.
4. A good provider if jobs are available. He won’t be a lazy bum.
Either alpha or beta could be a bad-boy. Depending on the man’s ethics he can be a bad-boy alpha if he is a leader and totally selfish. Or a good-boy alpha by leading with character, women wanting to bed him, and he having good ethics. For example a good-boy alpha would remain faithful to his wife; especially if he has faith in Christ.
This topic could be a post of its own.
“@ Liz, folks actually thought the Oregon guys should be shot or killed for protesting? Wow. That’s scary!
this isn’t Russia or Chona for Goodness sake! ”
I totally agree. I’m not an Obama fan, but I appreciate our president’s choice to resolve this as peacefully as possible.
@ Poseidon, I agree, the Alpha/Beta definitions have always seemed off to me, as well. I agree there are good alphas and bad alphas, good betas and bad betas, if there is even really such a thing as an alpha or beta. And even if there is, it confuses me that betas get such a bad rap, there can only be so many alphas by definition, one would assume that means there are going to be followers. If every guy was an alpha, seems like there would be constant war? I think the roles are more fluid as well, a guy can be alpha in one situation or sphere in his life, but not another. Or maybe he is the alpha, until another more-alpha comes on the scene. Does that make him a not alpha? It’s confusing, and yes I agree it could be a post of it’s own, for sure!
@ redpillgirlnotes. Take the Alpha lion for example, every individual in the pride knows that he is the Alpha. Strong, brave, ruthless… an individual that rules over all. He never obeys others, nor does he hide behind bodyguards. He has no use for spies or enforcers.
The fact that no-one can agree on which human is an Alpha is proof that there are no Alphas in our species.
Interesting, Gumdeo. In a lion pride, my understanding is all other males are driven off at puberty. Only room for one alpha per pride. I wonder what the situation is in say primate groups? Is there a “top” male, or do they pair up, or ? And even then, primate behavior doesn’t necessarily correspond to human behavior.
It depends on which primate you’re talking about, Bloom.
Gorillas are very different from orangutans, just as chimpanzees have very different social structures when compared to bonobos. And yes, we are different than all of them, not least because our young are the most vulnerable for the longest period of time, and our individual ideologies involving concepts of sexual intimacy/partnerships.
The thing about using the terms “Alphas” and “Betas” is that they were originally drawn from scientific observations regarding how captive wolves acted in their new human made environments. A lot of what was studied and taken as typical behaviors was, in fact, not at all.
So I agree with gumdeo and Liz, that these terms are misused or are close to meaningless when used to describe human society.
re Bad Boys, there is an interesting vignette in Hans Fallada’s 1932 novel “Little Man, What Now?” The protagonists, Sonny and Lammchen, are a likeable young couple trying to survive in late-Weimar Germany and having a rough time of it. One day, their gangsterish friend Mr Jachtmann takes them to see a movie..in which the following play-within-a-play occurs:
The film’s protagonist is a young bank clerk, very much in love with his wife…the wife being less than happy with their financial circumstances. The clerk begins thinking how easy it would be to steal money, and one day his hand actually moves toward a pile of currency…but he just can’t do it. He is noticed, though, by his friend the Management Trainee (son of a bank director), who takes pity on him and gives him money.
The clerk cannot bring himself to tell his wife how he got the money, but implies he has embezzled it. She is thrilled…”You did that for me?”…and their relationship improves dramatically.
But the Management Trainee meets the wife, and falls in love with her…still, “she only had eyes for her husband, that brave, reckless man, who would do anything for her.” Finally, the Management Trainee tells the wife the truth about how the clerk got the money, and she laughs in her husband’s face.
Note the implied priorities of the wife’s attraction…her husband the Thief is more attractive than the high-status and well-off Management Trainee. However, the Management Trainee is more attractive than her husband the Recipient of Charity. Also, her husband the Recipient of Charity is even less attractive than her husband the Mere Bank Clerk.
Something to think about in an era when so many men are having difficulty finding more than marginal employment….
“Note the implied priorities of the wife’s attraction…her husband the Thief is more attractive than the high-status and well-off Management Trainee. However, the Management Trainee is more attractive than her husband the Recipient of Charity. Also, her husband the Recipient of Charity is even less attractive than her husband the Mere Bank Clerk.”
Ouch.
After the fictional movie is over, the protagonist book;s Sonny is so devastated he can’t even get out of his seat…he sees too much parallel between the Bank Clerk’s situation and his own. But he need not have worried; his wife Lammchen, who is drawn as almost but not quite saintly, sticks by him through everything. (The character of Lammchen resonated so much in Germany when the book came out that one newspaper even had a most-like-Lammchen contest!)
I reviewed the book here
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/29873.html
and also the American movie made from it
http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/29967.html
The guys in Oregon ar not terrorists but they are white, Christian, heterosexual, and male. Everything that our society would love to see trashed.
I have to say it goes even further than this. After taking the red pill and learning “game” I used it in hopes to keep her happy and raise a strong nuclear family. Not a nice guy, but a good guy, nonetheless. Never giving in to her petty demands, and leading the romantic dance. She was the first to want into a relationship, now she is the first to want out.
Around 4 months into the pregnancy, she decides it’s her right to start steering the ship. I have been “holding frame” as the manosphere recommends, but it’s no use. She wants her mommy. A common theme with pregnant women, and without a patriarchy there is no way to stop her from keeping the child from the relationship with it. Her mother cheated on her father and left him when she was young and now this same woman is encouraging her move back home and destroy this child by raising it in a feminist environment in denial of its own misogyny.
Oh no, bookooball! 😦 I will be praying for you both, it would be much better for your baby to be raised by the two of you than with her and grandma. Her mom is being very destructive to even suggest it rather than to be encouraging your family unit to flourish! I don’t know the situation obviously, if you are married, how long, and such, but I do hope it is not too late and that she will seriously reconsider. Feel free to share more if you wish and I will be sending positive thoughts your way.
Not married. Marriage in this day and age gives the woman too much power, and not to be sexist but otherwise good women will abuse their power and run the ship into an iceberg without even realizing it. I have however, entered a spiritual union. It may not be recognized by the state, but God recognizes it nonetheless.
I was a bit of a thug growing up, but I joined the army to learn discipline and get out of that lifestyle. Now, I am making around 60k per year and I’m about a year and a half from a bachelor’s degree in engineering.
I have been married in the past, and between that, going, to war, living on the streets, and many other things, I know women deep down don’t want a “good guy” they don’t really want a “bad guy” either. They never know what they want, but they continually want more and more of it. I’ll admit I can be an asshole sometimes. Not something I am proud of, but a necessity. Where women truly fall short, and what makes them unfit to lead, is their inability to make sense of their own emotions.
If this woman could remember 4 months ago, she pissed off a feminist for saying she was OK with me being an asshole sometimes, but due to the hormone shift of pregnancy, she can’t remember why. I’d wager this same thing is happening all over the country. The fact that the elite created laws that allow this to happen to the working class man is sad. This is the true reason our country has fallen. Marxism destroys the family. Unnatural, and destructive