Sometimes I wonder if people in the “real world” ever think about these same things we discuss here in red pill forums.
Well today I got my answer while talking to a longtime customer and volunteer for my farm biz, who is in his mid-60s (I am guessing), was a soldier in Vietnam, and then owned and operated his own metal fabrication business for most of his life before he retired.
He had come to talk about a metal sign he is going to make for my biz. Then, and I don’t even know what brought it up, we got to talking about how much things have changed over his lifetime.
He was a young man when massive social changes we are still grappling with today took place, perhaps a few years but not much older than those who spearheaded the sexual revolution, feminism, and the flower child movement.
He’s about as close to a real life example of “The Patriarchy” as you’ll find: white, male, middle class.
He likes hot rods and has a pristine candy apple red one in every class: pickup, sport car, convertible, and road bike. He’s extremely kind, loves animals, and is always willing to lend a hand. When he does, he always works twice as hard as anyone else, and he smiles and jokes while he does it. He’s the epitome of the “good guy.”
He and his wife have been married for life and as far as I can see (without living with them in their home) they are very happy together and still enjoy each other’s company even after many years together. If they weren’t happily married I am pretty sure I’d be able to feel that, but instead I feel much love, respect, and joy between them. They are one of those couples that listen carefully and with anticipation when their other half talks, and they beam at each other with affection. (So cute!!!)
I think he was taken off guard by my openness to him expressing what he had to say. How he felt about being a white male in America today. How many times his company had the lowest bid, but was still passed over so the contract could go to a minority. How he felt frustrated that it was OK for people to say almost anything anymore — except — if they had his value system or his beliefs. How it felt to go from the “typical American man” to the embodiment of “the problem.” (To which I said, “Actually, men like you built this country!” He perked up with pride at that.)
He also talked about how concerned he was over the state of things in our country, how the America he loved (where folks were self-reliant, self governed, knew what the right thing to do was and actually did it, worked hard, had dreams, got ahead, etc.) was slipping away and being replaced by something much less. He expressed his concerns about the economy, jobs being outsourced, political parties that seemed to represent their own interests over those of the people, how money runs the country now, how so few Americans seemed to notice or even care.
I sat and listened to all he had to say, all of it very insightful and not unlike the things typically discussed around the manosphere, and it occurred to me — we were having a totally not-ok, not socially approved, not safe space friendly, uncensored, not PC discussion. We laughed even, realizing how “not OK” it was to talk of such subjects!
And it was refreshing as all get out! By golly, I think it may have even made his day. I could tell he hated to have to wrap it up and head out. And I was honored that he had opened up to me, that I had been able to give him a safe space to voice his inner thoughts in a world where it’s not so safe for him to do so anymore.
I wonder how many other people secretly see that the Emperor has no clothes, and they are just quietly doing their best to get along and go along with a world that makes no sense sometimes. Maybe, just maybe, there are a lot more than we may know!
(As an aside, and not to get political but: He votes. And he’s says he’s voting for Trump. He said as far as he can see, Trump is the only one who has the guts or the ability to take on the status quo and put the power back in the hands of the people. And he said it would not be a moment too soon, before the country he loves, fought for, watched his friends die for, goes so far down this road it’s on that there is going to be no going back. No more America as we know (or knew) it. But he did joke that perhaps Trump could use some “finishing school.”)
And then I saw the cover of the Feb. 2016 “New Yorker,” and I wondered if they hadn’t gotten it completely all wrong? Would the dead presidents perhaps be wildly cheering, instead?
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
I wonder how many other people secretly see that the Emperor has no clothes, and they are just quietly doing their best to get along and go along with a world that makes no sense sometimes. Maybe, just maybe, there are a lot more than we may know!
Quite a few more guys than the MSM would have us believe. They talk about the ‘sphere and MGTOW as though such men are all outliers. In my experience…hardly. Almost all the guys I know are willing to admit the system is f’d up. Just not loudly, and not before checking over their shoulders.
What you’re describing in this man is not what I’d call exclusively “red pill,” but plain old-fashioned conservatism. Red pill may intersect some of this, but I would by no means classify this as something unique to red pill. Furthermore, there are some red pill folks who say things that would not be tolerated well among many “regular” conservatives. This guy may not even agree with a lot of what he’d see on red pill forums.
Thanks for adding that Sue. For the record I don’t agree with everything that is said in red pill forums either, but I value free thought and freedom of speech highly. Even if it sometimes means being exposed to thoughts or speech I don’t personally condone. The red pill is one of the few places I see exchange of free thought anymore…
He did say he didn’t see anyone else in the R line up that he felt was a true conservative. But true, I do not know what he would think of all this…
There have to be people like him everywhere. While they aren’t talking, they are keeping their eyes and ears open.
Looking at the magazine cover, all those guys would be more than tired of the wishy washy Charlie Brown alternatives that we have been offered for decades.
Also Sue, while it is true there are some jerky acting red pill/manosphere guys, there are also a lot of kind, thoughtful, intelligent, “good” men in the manosphere too, very similar to this man I describe.
I hope so fuzzie. I am still deciding who to support myself but his take surprised me! We talked about much more than the above, including my concerns about his pick, and it was all very good discussion. He wasn’t trying to convince me, just saying how he sees it.
I would agree w him that both parties are way too entrenched in the “biz as usual” greased skids and backroom deal stuff that I think is a big part of the problem.
How many times his company had the lowest bid, but was still passed over so the contract could go to a minority
If a white man you are, better you must be
He did say that Yoda, how it was supposed to be about a level playing field but turned into a +1 situation for everyone but guys like himself.
I am glad that you were able to talk with him. It’s reassuring to know that people like him are out there.
Someone at the Ricochet blog passed along the following quote: “People only care about two things. Certainty and significance. If you make them uncertain or make them feel insignificant, you are their enemy. The more certainty you can provide, and the more significant you make them feel, the more they will follow you.”
I’m not so sure about the Certainty part…different people need and want different levels of certainty…but the Significance point is right on. And people like your friend have had their SIgnificance attacked from many different directions over the past couple of decades.
Ted Cruz is actually much more conservative then Trump. I believe Cruz is more likely to live up to what he says than Trump would. Trump to me seems like a total opportunist and would take any stance to get elected. Cruz has been consistently conservative and very much disliked by the Republican Senate.
Also Trump is the only Republican who cannot beat Clinton according to the most recent polling. We do not want Hilliary as our president for eight years folks.
That is surprising he’s voting for Trump. That one is just such a wild card to me.. kinda afraid of what he’d do as president. Granted, I guess I’d take him over Hilary.
Very true David, like I said I was honored he shared all that with me! And actually had I not been hanging around the manosphere for the past few years, I am not sure I would have even been able to understand what he was saying, or understand the deep wound that must be… not that he was at all complaining or wanting pity. He’s a strong, strong person. An oak!
Good to see you Poseidon! I will have to read up on Cruz.
“Ted Cruz is actually much more conservative then Trump. I believe Cruz is more likely to live up to what he says than Trump would.”
Yes!! I hope Cruz lasts!!!
It surprised me too Dragonfly. I said kind of in jest, “But don’t you kinda worry he’ll hit the red button in anger?” He said no he did not, he thinks T would surround himself with good people to advise him on foreign affairs, would be less likely to lash out and get us in some 15 year war like we are in now, draining our budget and making us sell parts of our country to outsiders to fund that as we have trying to police and protect the world. It was a very interesting discussion, considering his military background. He felt the powers that be on both side will flame those types of fears more and more to manipulate the public. I am not sure I agree but it was interesting to hear his (more experienced than my) view!
And I do agree T has caught both parties with their pants down, so to speak. They must have assumed the public would never tire of their gridlock and grease skidding and selling out John and Jane Q for a buck. If T makes them realize we’ve had ENOUGH, well then he has done well even w/o a win. Politics as usual is killing our country.
Maybe it is obvious by now, maybe not, but I enjoy a good debate even if I totally disagree or can’t understand another’s viewpoint, I can respect they have their own opinion. I always see it as an opportunity to examine my own thinking, perhaps learn something new or see things from another viewpoint. I learn more from people who are different from me than those who think just like me, if that makes sense?
Cruz is the conservative establishment’s anti-establishment conservative candidate. Trump is not a conservative, because if he were a conservative, he would be a pussy and a loser, like the rest of them.
Trump is a billionaire businessman. The idea that he cannot negotiate, compromise, or make a deal is retarded. He literally wrote the book on making deals. Of course he is a dick, because the other option is being a pussy. Dicks know when to be flexible, and when to get hard, where a pussy just lies there and gets fucked.
I stupidly signed up to fight for America. I was not in on the joke, that it is not my country anymore. Now I get it. Now I will not fight for America. I will fight for me. Since Trump is willing to fight for me, I will fight for him. America can burn.
The Shadowed Knight
Tsk I understand your bitterness. I hope you do not always feel this way. For my kid’s sake I hope things turn around yet, no matter how slim the chances seem at the moment. I think you would like this fellow I describe.
I am sure I would like him. I tend to get along with older men better than my age peers.
Not bitter, just realized that America has damn little to offer me. No one else is going to look out for me, so I have to go it on my own. It would be nice to turn it all around, and I would not be against that, but I do not expect it.
The Shadowed Knight
“Also Trump is the only Republican who cannot beat Clinton according to the most recent polling. We do not want Hilliary as our president for eight years folks.”
This is my fear, too, Poseidon. I also fear if he doesn’t get the nomination we will have a third party ticket and Hillary will win that way. We’ve seen this before, with another Clinton ironically enough.
“Someone at the Ricochet blog passed along the following quote: “People only care about two things. Certainty and significance. If you make them uncertain or make them feel insignificant, you are their enemy. The more certainty you can provide, and the more significant you make them feel, the more they will follow you.”
I’m not so sure about the Certainty part…different people need and want different levels of certainty…but the Significance point is right on. And people like your friend have had their SIgnificance attacked from many different directions over the past couple of decades.”
Interesting, David Foster. I agree with you on the different levels of certainty. I’d say what people want, more than certainty, is the feeling that they have some level of control over their own lives. That’s something that dies under large levels of bureaucracy (and/or Communism, and so forth). It’s kind of the same reason a lot of people are more likely to fear flying in a passenger plane than driving a car, even though the car is leaps and bounds more dangerous. They feel more control over their own destiny with one than the other. This all ties in to hope.
Under systems of government which take away one’s control (and it’s necessary in certain cases to protect property rights, predatory violence, and other things the actually preserve freedom in the long run) to too great an extent, they lose hope. People are able to overcome great obstacles in life if they believe that ultimately either they or their progeny will prosper in the end. But now it’s much the opposite case. Hope is low, especially across Europe. For example, my Italian relatives might eat better on the day to day than they did when they lived on the farm decades back, in abject poverty. But then they did believe that if they worked hard their future, and the future of their children, would be brighter. Now they’ve seen the government take it all away and they have little control over their own circumstances so they’ve lost hope. We are on that path as well over here.
Very true Liz, hope is an important motivator.
@ tsk yes this is true. I believe it was Toad who posted a chart showing the support a Somalian refugee gets in the US versus a US Vet. That makes no sense!
My friend talked about his kid, works at a local manufacturing shop. The shop is hiring mostly Russian immigrants now bc the govt subsidizes $10 per hour of their $19 per hour wage. Then, because of the “cost” of taking the govt handout is that it’s practically impossible to lay off a Russian immigrant worker, even if they don’t show up for days or call in. My friend’s son’s own morale suffers for it, knowing if he doesn’t show up one day he’ll be replaced on a dime w a subsidized non American born worker 😦
Also, I am sure even with him giving me a good deal, I could probably get a metal sign made overseas for less than his cost of materials. But I want a sign made by my neighbor, handcrafted with pride, here in my community. It’s going to be stunning, I just know it!
Trump’s willingness to shed off the labels and political correctness that binds most of us is what draws people to him.
The reality is that Trump himself is probably not the solution to many of our problems. But he does point the way towards that path. A world where respect is earned, effort and reward are clearly connected, facts are favored over “feelings”, and meritocratic principles reign supreme.
All of those things are decried now as “patriarchal”.
Tobacco is depicted on the magazine cover! For shame! This will cause all children who may chance to view it to become addicted to tobacco! LOL.
It is memes such as these which improve my view of Trump, even though he’s not a smoker. I’m broad-minded that way.
I cannot support Cruz however given my awareness of certain individuals who are very powerful in terms of mineral and water rights, but who are Atheistic Vampires in their private lives, who support him. Naturally, I can’t say more except to assume that Cruz “plays ball” with persons who would just assume kill a person as squash a bug, even if the death of such a person isn’t readily apparent in the robotic smiles evinced. Lincoln and Kennedy might have something to say about robotic killers even if they too were likely a couple of dupes themselves.
This is not to say that I actually trust Trump. I don’t trust any of them. We’re beyond the point where an honorable or trustworthy person could become President of any country that I know of. For all I know, Trump is working for Cruz.
In my view, the best case scenario would be the destruction of the monopoly on discourse, and the duopoly of the U.S. political parties, and thus supporting Trump is at least as rewarding as a swig of great booze and a cigar while laughing at all the depraved entrenched demagogues who dissemble with the mere mention of his name.
Lol cap! You know, as soon as I saw that I started smoking again after 20 some years! I couldn’t understand why, but now it all makes perfect sense!
Kidding, of course! Thanks for commenting, I agree maybe T saying what nobody else can or is willing to say is his beat contribution… Someone has to tell all those biz as usual, greased skids, big money sell puts “enough! ENOUGH!” Agreed!
Also cap, good point that folks should consider who one’s donors are as well. Did they do a deal w the devil?
@tsk I have contemplated running for political office just out of pure frustration and my love for the ideals this nation is built upon. But my biggest hesitation is my and my kids safety. Perhaps if I do you could be our bodyguard? In exchange I can introduce you to the community of very traditional community that lives in my area and all their beautiful blonde Scandinavian daughters from which you could pick your wife and get started on your own army of baby tsk’s! Win-win! 🙂
Not much of a bodyguard. Not really my thing. Politics is a filthy business; stay as far away as you can.
Marriage is not for me. I already signed my life away in a contract once, and I am not about to repeat the experience. It did not turn out well.
The Shadowed Knight
“Marriage is not for me. I already signed my life away in a contract once, and I am not about to repeat the experience. It did not turn out well.”
I think I understand this TSK, if my brother went through a horrible, life-scarring divorce, I’d get it if he didn’t want to try again. But since I write a lot to women, and do single women articles advising them in dating, reading admissions like this makes me kind of want to warn single women not to entangle themselves with divorced men.
If a divorced man is charming, handsome, and financially stable, it would be hard for a single woman to *not* fall in love with him… but then, what’s in it for her in the long run? I do think maybe a relationship that’s just “long-term” would be doable for them, but the risk of getting hurt seems to be so high (just like a divorce really). Just random thoughts….
Yes. It is unfortunate that it is easy enough to conceal the identity of any donor through shell entities.
true tsk, good advice all around!
tsk is not divorced, Dragonfly, I believe he is speaking of his contract with the govt. as a former member of the military.
Dragonfly, I would counsel women to access these things with a divorced man, any man, before falling in love. If a woman’s goal is *marriage*, she should only entertain men who are *marriage minded*, and ones who are ready emotionally, spiritually, financially, etc. AT THAT CURRENT TIME. Speculating on men changing their minds is a bad plan.
Or in other words, a gal who hears tsk say what he did should accept he is not marriage minded and resist his charms, if she truly wants MARRIAGE. (From what tsk has said elsewhere, he has no interest in a casual sex thing bc of his own beliefs, so tsk is a celibate guy but not marriage minded, I would say tsk is not interested in what she is interested in, not a marriage match. Friends, yes of course. Love? Attachment romantically? No. Not a wise path for a *marriage minded* gal, unless she is into unrequited love. Tsk may be open to a LTR without a legal state marriage, a gal would have to decide for herself if that would be acceptable before falling in love.)
These gals I speak of, their fathers guard them closely, There is no causal sex. There is no LTR but not married. For a guy wanting a gal like them, it’s marriage or nothing. That’s the dad-side of patriarchy. Their dads know, for a woman, to not be legally married is not a good deal. For the man, ironically, it IS a good deal.
Part of this catch 22 is women and men have competing and opposite agendas in many ways. It is better for a man not to marry, he does not NEED a woman. It is better for a woman to marry. Especially if she desires children, she NEEDS a man. If a man desires children, well he may not NEED to marry, but I would advise if he wants them to turn out well, he needs to be willing to stick around until they are grown. (Controversial but there, I did say it. Men who have kids and do not willingly stick around are part of the problem, too, and should be avoided like the plague!)
Trump’s popularity is based on several things.
–the GOP’s bad memories of candidates who said they were conservative and who then later betrayed their constituents by siding with liberals.
(Sanders is the Dems’ answer to Trump. He is giving Hillary a run for her money because there is a sizable faction of true believer liberal Dems who absolutely hate Hillary. Sanders is a dyed in the wool, true-believer, die-for-the-cause socialist who, they believe, will never ever betray them).
–he’s not a pussy. He is beholden to no one, he has no major benefactors, he is self funded. Therefore he can say whatever the fuck he wants. He’s not afraid to piss off even megapopular infobabe Megyn Kelly. He even alluded to the size of his penis during a debate.
He’s proving it – if the choice is between being a dick and being a pussy, it’s better to be a dick. People might forgive you for being a dick. But they’ll never forgive you for being a pussy. Yeah – ask John Kerry about that. Ask Mitt Romney about that. Ask Gerald Ford about that. Ask Al Gore about that.
–he’s entertaining. The GOP hasn’t seen a presidential run this fun for at least 20 years, not since Clinton ran in ’92 as a faux rock star.
–he really is saying what the GOP rank and file wants to hear but the establishment candidates are afraid to say. Especially on immigration, and especially on PC. People in the GOP really are sick of political correctness, way, way past sick of it. They know it’s bullshit. Trump isn’t afraid to call it out as bullshit.
As for “he can’t win” and “he’s an idiot” and “he’s a warmonger who will get us into WW III” and “he can’t negotiate”, shit. People said the same things about Ronald Reagan. I’ll just leave that here.
@RedPillGirl … just a heads up, I played off and linked your post in a related blog post I made today … sort of an expanded version of my comment above.
http://www.illiberal-liberal.com/2016/03/the-betrayal-of-millennials-patriarchal-principles-and-freedom/
Correct, Bloom. I am celibate, and I am not looking for a wife, whether that is with a marriage license or just an understanding. My life goal is now to move up north, start a permaculture garden with a few animals, and live as much off of the land as I can. A nice, peaceful life is what I want, and that necessarily precludes women. About the only thing I am willing to fight for anymore is to be left alone.
The Shadowed Knight
I totally agree with you, Bloom… sorry TSK for thinking your statement meant divorce was in your past!
It’s sad to me though, that the goals of men and women are becoming so much on the opposite end of the spectrum. I understand it! But it still makes me wish it wasn’t like that.
So per divorced men: avoid them like the plague if they don’t want marriage.
Thanks copper fox! I am flattered 🙂
tsk that sounds like a very fine and peaceful life goal to me!
Almost Dragonfly, I’d change that to if a gal wants marriage, she should avoid any man (single, divorced, whatever) who is not interested in, looking for, and ready to find a partner and marry. Women should not flinch away from this discussion early, imho. Of course not, “Are you going to marry ME or not???” on a first date, but “Are you interested in and looking to marry when you find the right girl?” might be appropriate. (Guys, would that question freak you out? If so, how would a gal determine this early on?)
To further clarify, women looking to marry should avoid ambiguous dating situations of any length, no matter how attractive, perfect, right, etc. the guy is. this blog post kind of explains it: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/01/dont-let-guy-waste-your-most-eligible.html
Dragonfly the two genders have always had opposing agendas.
Him: spread that seed far and wide with as little commitment as possible! (especially before paternity testing and mandatory child support laws, not so much any more.)
Her: get a firm commitment before seed flies! (this used to be more so when out of wedlock births/single moms were less common.)
So really this has always been the dance, it’s the rules that have changed.
Then: Men who wouldn’t commit had a hard time finding takers when women were’t easy, easy women had a hard time making it so gals demanded commitment. This forced the genders to barter.
Today: Men don’t have to commit to get sex and women are easy because the social stigmas are greatly reduced of them being so. The result: lack of incentive to marry.
“women looking to marry should avoid ambiguous dating situations of any length, no matter how attractive, perfect, right, etc. the guy is. this blog post kind of explains it: http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/01/dont-let-guy-waste-your-most-eligible.html”
Yes, it’s just amazing how far the goals of the sexes have gone (in cases like this) – makes writing with morals harder. And one is constantly thinking well what’s best for women, and then on the other hand, what’s best for men? They don’t add up anymore!
MGTOW usually want to have a woman relationship of **some** kind, but ironically, they’re in a catch22. The kind of woman that actually has the values they would want is either 1) already married, or 2) probably looking only for marriage. Women like that know marriage is better for them. The conflict of interest is becoming greater for some people who are “waking up,” and that’s sad! There’s less valuable women and there’s less men who want marriage (and understandably).
“Dragonfly the two genders have always had opposing agendas.”
I kind of disagree here, I think biologically, you’re definitely correct! But at one time, men DID want to get married and settle down with one woman. They did actually marry as virgins, and women did, too. there was a time when there wasn’t so much of a conflict of interest, when morals and family values were appreciated.
@ Dragonfly see my latest comment, the competing agenda have always been there, it’s the market that has collapsed. The incentives to “barter” disappeared.
True, there were always and still are men who prefer marriage for moral or whatever reasons, but when the ONLY way to get sex was marriage, MORE men were will ing to marry. Women in a way removed the incentive to marry — it’s not men who did that!
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/04/men-dont-have-commitment-problems.html
@ dragonfly worse, the hot guys women want to have sex with have the least incentive of all men to marry (barring a moral reason they choose to) — b/c they can easily get sex w/o marriage. The men most willing to marry (bc they can’t get the easy sex the top guys can) are the ones women are less interested in marrying, and are often overlooked!
Often called the 20-80 principle, 20 percent of hot guys are being pursued heavily by most women, the other 80 percent not so much. But 100 percent of women obviously can’t marry only 20 percent of men, so this creates a problem. Especially when women confuse their smv (how hot of a guy they can engage short term or who may have hit on her hoping for sex but not anything serious) with their MMV (how hot of a guy will actually be willing to marry her, usually not as hot as the one night stand possibilities causing problems if she’s engaged in casual sex/hookup culture, and leading her to think “she’s too good for” the guys in her actual MMV, possibly not even give them a chance while not realizing the guys with her smv would likely never have actually married her, but she blames them for being “shallow jerks” or “bad luck” or whatever when it doesn’t proceed rather than realize she was confusing her smv and her mmv as one and the same when they rarely are except in her most peak prime years and before too many in her age group who are marriage minded pair off.)
Confusing, no?
Sounds like you and Liz married your guys during your peak prime years — smart move! Many women today are advised to “put marriage off” not realizing that the risk they are taking with that is when they do marry, it may be to a lower MMV man than if they had married younger. Kinda like musical chairs…
So my advice to marriage minded gals would be to forget the 20 percent unless she’s in the top 20 percent herself, check out the upper or her equivelant within the 80 percent instead, and do so sooner than the middle — and for sure before the upper — of the pack of gals in her age group do. (As they say, the good ones often go first….get to the market early for the best pick!)
I believe most men, young and not young, would prefer to be married to a pretty, honest, LOYAL, respectful woman who would be a wonderful mother to his children. I believe most men throughout history would have preferred this type of lifestyle.
I read an article today that you may find interesting: http://evonomics.com/no-one-knows-why-trump-is-winning/
I thought it explained fairly well the observation that RP people lean conservative. Full disclosure, I’m more liberal but I think (hope) this article does a good job not judging either side just being descriptive. Also, I personally would want a “strict father” scenario for my future family and I do agree with other aspects of what the author describes as that worldview (e.g. pro personal responsibility and against political correctness).
To comment on the other point of the OP, from the interactions I have in my daily life (taking into account selection bias) whenever I mention something even slightly RP or anti-feminist I am almost always quickly shot down, and typically even receive a horrified/disbelieving response. So, though I’m probably surrounded by much more liberal people, I have not witnessed any realizations that the marriage/dating culture is not functioning.
Indeed Poseidon, it’s *women* who are to blame for mucking that up (as the title of the post today suggests https://notesfromaredpillgirl.com/2016/03/08/whos-to-blame-for-the-mess-today/)
However I would say:
– men have always had the agenda of polygamy (sex with as many women as possible, without a commitment, if they can get away with it)
– women have always had the agenda of hypergamy (sex, with the best man/men she can get and the ability to trade up/break commitments to get it, if they can get away with it)
Social constraints, religon, etc. keep a cap on these two desires.
When America was a nation with shared social norms and morals favoring the link between sex and marriage, it kept those two agendas in check.
Today when we have a country that does not link sex to marriage, but condones sex outside of marriage and the norm, making marriage “optional” to have sex, those two agenda are let loose to run free. Only those holding the old values are likely to continue to marry, and because there are less of them, it’s harder to make that match unless you live in a community that has a shared set of values the larger culture doesn’t share, such as my babysitter’s group. They still marry, and young, to not marry is almost unheard of. Their sub culture still strongly links sex and marriage, even if the larger culture does not. Few people live in such a cohesive group anymore, even church goers and such… many live by the rules of the larger culture when it suits them, and nobody calls them on it if and when they do.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying this is a GOOD development, just that this is the “current tactical reality on the ground” as Ton would say.
Good points robotic yogi, although I would say what is considered “conservative” today may not be the historic definition (See Bristol Palin’s escapades, not exactly conservative values) and what is considered liberal today, is not historically what liberal meant. (such as when it meant personal/individual freedom over govt. meddling, the opposite of the sjw thing we see today!)
Also I would agree, despite the to rp folks unmistakable smh/mmp train wreck, it seems the blue pill world is still under the (d)illusion that all is good and that the problems are here and there rather than systemic. I don’t know how they can’t see that, but maybe it’s just because that is too darn scary?!?!?! Denial is so safe and cozy?
Hm yes you’re right about the historical definitions of conservative and liberal changing. I’ll have to think about what that might mean for my definitions or those used in the article.
Too scary is one possibility for sure. I think it’s also a lot to do with how brainwashed most BP people/media/government are. Or maybe brainwashed isn’t the right way to put it, but it’s difficult to *really* think about something and change your mind or your view. To challenge your and society’s commonly held beliefs. It’s so EASY to keep the status quo. Inertia and all that.
robotic yogi, very true re:inertia, unfortunately even if that inertia is propelling everyone right toward the edge of a cliff!
I predict all this can and will change on a dime if all the socialist safeguards drop away that allow the current situation, as sergey commented on today’s post based on his observations in Communist and post communist Russia. https://notesfromaredpillgirl.com/2016/03/08/whos-to-blame-for-the-mess-today/
I saw that comment re Russia, that’s fascinating!
P.S. I’ve been reading through all of your archives – I really like your blog and how you set the tone in the comments. (And that you respond to pretty much every comment!)
Hey, Dragonfly. 🙂
You said earlier MGTOW usually want to have a woman relationship of **some** kind, but ironically, they’re in a catch22. The kind of woman that actually has the values they would want is either 1) already married, or 2) probably looking only for marriage.
I was wondering what you mean by the “values they would want” part. As I’m very pro-MGTOW, the majority of site I read and/or comment at are also MGTOW based. Which values do you think most MGTOW are looking for in a woman?
Hey Tarn, I’m sure its different for a lot of the MGTOW guys, but from what I’ve seen (granted this isn’t a big selection of what I’ve seen at all!) if they’re open to a long term relationship on their terms, they want it to be a woman with morals. I’ve seen some of them say preferably someone “religious,” and ironically, even PUAs say they want their future wife (marriage minded alert) to be religious to some degree, because of the value system a religion has in place they hope that she’d adhere to it.
I’ve also seen them harp on hating the promiscuity of women, and desire a low n count, virgins would be considered some kind of trophy find. And to me, the more religious a woman is, the more she sticks to religious values, the less likely she’s going to want to forgo marriage (the conflict of interest between these groups are so great, it’s unlikely to happen in other words).
I’m sure there are many though that don’t care about religious value systems or even hate religion, I just haven’t seen what they would particularly want in a woman. My guess would probably be basic human values like fairness, kindness and respect, along with companionship. If you read the sites, I bet you know much more than me Tarn, 😉 I’m just going off of only a few things I’ve read. Overall, some of the MGTOW stuff is so anti-marriage (and hyper-critical of *any* wives good ones or otherwise) that it’s difficult to read.
And re: the basic human values, Tarn, you definitely have those.
I am a bit ocd about responding to comments, hope it’s not too much! But yep, I do read every one! 🙂
There are actually all sorts of MTGOW, from those who want nothing to do with women at all, to those who only date casually, to those who see “professionals” as needed, to those who are in extended LTRs but won’t marry….it’s a pretty diverse group. The ones you describe who think any and all women are evil do stand out bc they are so extreme, but I think they are actually the minority.
Hey Tarn, I’m sure its different for a lot of the MGTOW guys, but from what I’ve seen (granted this isn’t a big selection of what I’ve seen at all!) if they’re open to a long term relationship on their terms, they want it to be a woman with morals.
True, for those looking for monogamous LTRs at least. If you’re interested in seeing what MGTOW have to say on a range of topics in a more casual way…Well, I don’t put new content up at my blog anymore but I do have numerous posts regarding MGTOW, including the results of a survey I created.
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/page/2/?s=Mgtow&submit=Search
I’m sure there are many though that don’t care about religious value systems or even hate religion, I just haven’t seen what they would particularly want in a woman. My guess would probably be basic human values like fairness, kindness and respect, along with companionship.
Can’t say I’ve ever seen anti-theist MGTOWs, but there are a significant amount of atheists, Deists, and agnostic theists in this side of the ‘sphere. You would be correct that these, and similarly worthwhile traits, are what they seek in their partners (as temporary and uncommitted as they may be). Unfortunately, they say it is difficult to find such women in North America and the UK fairs about as well.
If you read the sites, I bet you know much more than me Tarn, 😉 I’m just going off of only a few things I’ve read.
Much like how you have superior information compared to me when it comes down to the Christian and marriage minded side of the ‘sphere. 😉
Overall, some of the MGTOW stuff is so anti-marriage (and hyper-critical of *any* wives good ones or otherwise) that it’s difficult to read.
Same but reversed for me. I’m pretty anti-marriage myself (though I absolutely DO admit that there are good ones out there, yours and Liz’s for example) so I stay away from the religious/pro-marriage blogs because I really wouldn’t have anything positive to add, and some topics are…as you say…difficult to read. My personal beliefs and lifestyle choices just line up a whole heck of a lot with MGTOW, so I support them since it’s very easy to see where they are coming from.
And re: the basic human values, Tarn, you definitely have those.
Thank you, Dragonfly! I do think that if one doesn’t have a strict, written path of religious values that it’s necessary to have a firm grasp on basic values and good traits that are helpful to your fellow human beings, yourself, and your community.
@ Dragonfly, it can be hard for women to understand I think, what men think and feel in MTGOW shoes. And of course there’s also a lot of diversity in reasons to go MTGOW on an individual level. But I have heard many say with the the current court system and how easily a marriage can be ended, and the costs involved in that case (major financial hit for all parties, loss of custody, etc. often men especially) well they weigh that risk vs. not, and “not” ends up their choice. They may want a good marriage, a good woman, a family…but the risks are too great of possibly losing all that should they choose unwisely or be mislead or if the “good church gal” isn’t so dedicated in the long run, changes her mind after X years.
Women of course face the same risks in marriage, but the assumption is if he ends it (or even if she does), she will be considered the “weaker party that must be protected” the vast majority of the time, will get a settlement that allows her to start over, and to get custody of the kids almost automatically as well. Men don’t have those assurances. Some here have shared atrocious, atrocious divorce stories, horribly unfair situations, state sanctioned kidnapping, false charges, etc. Some have not seen their children in YEARS bc of that. Imagine how painful that would be? And imagine you could do NOTHING. But you better send that check every month anyway no matter what, or you are going to JAIL. Not a very good deal… 😦
Or, even if it has not happened to them personally, they see it happening to others all around them. I think it was Farm Boy who said once that basically every guy on his team at work has been frivorced. Every one… 😦 And many were mislead going in, only to discover they were beta bucks targets in the first place. I can see how that would make a guy think twice…
One more thing I forgot to add, even though I am marriage minded myself (and completely changed my approach to dating after meeting, ironically MTGOWS, and having them advise me to seek marriage myself bc that’s best for a woman, even if it is not what is best for them in their opinion) I have come to understand their side, and respect their right to make that decision for themselves, just as I have the right to choose marriage for me. Trying to convert them, talk them out of it, or change their mind is …ummm….unadvisable. Kind of if someone tried to talk me out of wanting marriage. (And oddly, lots of feminist gals try to “Just stay single, guuurfriend! Why on earth would you want a MAN?”) It’s MY choice. MTGOW (or anyone) don’t have to agree, or marry because I want to. Yes, sadly there are a lot of really awesome guys who are MTGOW, but I trust they have carefully considered their reasons before making that decision.
I would not agree w/ someone who is MTGOW purposely misleading a marriage minded women that they are marriage minded, or anything like that. And to my surprise I saw guys on a well known and pretty hardcore “PUA/enjoy the fall” type rp blog actually say to the other guys, “Don’t mislead or lie to the “good gals.” Don’t destroy them for others. Be honest about who you are and what you want, and stick to gals who are ok with that.” I was pleasantly surprised, and agree!
The ones you describe who think any and all women are evil do stand out bc they are so extreme, but I think they are actually the minority.
These types do exist, but the moderators of just about everyone serious MGTOW forum shut down such guys pretty quickly if their posts/comments get too bad. Mentioning things like acts of violence or actual physical harm towards women is a good way to get permabanned from what I’ve seen. Nobody wants an entire pro-male site to disappear just because some idiot tries to talk about his revenge fantasies on it.
Or, even if it has not happened to them personally, they see it happening to others all around them. I think it was Farm Boy who said basically every guy on his team at work has been frivorced. Every one…
Yup. Kinda how every single one of my friends came from a divorced or separated home, and I am from a family where dad is on wife #4 and mom is divorced from my former stepfather. *shrug* It is what it is. I’m certainly aware from an intellectual standpoint that good, strong, long-lasting marriages exist, but…heh. It’s another thing to try and convince yourself of this when you spent the whole first half+ of your life seeing the opposite. Learning more and more about the f’d up frivorce court system, experiencing child custody battles personally, and hearing about the injustices piled specifically on men from close friends both on and offline doesn’t do much to help make one desire a wedding either.
Trying to convert them, talk them out of it, or change their mind is …ummm….unadvisable.
Not to mention a waste of time. 😛
Most have only come to their decision to be MGTOWs after much deliberation and soul-searching. It’s not anything quick, that’s for sure.
And to my surprise I say guys on a pretty hardcore PUA/enjoy the fall type rp blog actually say to the other guys, “Don’t mislead or lie to the “good gals.” Don’t destroy them for others.
Precisely. The guys who think NAWALT (in some variation) don’t much go for the guys who try to spread bitterness or negativity everywhere…whether that’s regarding women, relationships in general, or just keeping happy in the MGTOW lifestyle.
Copper fox, I share more of this red pill conversation in today’s post… and it kind of ties back into your post as well! https://notesfromaredpillgirl.com/2016/03/09/parenting-red-pill-kids/