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attraction, battle of the sexes, casual sex, commitment, courtship, dating, hook up, hook up culture, hooking up, hookups, love, marriage, red pill, relationships, romance
There’s a red pill saying called “riding the carousel” which, to put it nicely, means a gal sleeping around, hooking up, and having casual, no strings sex during her teens, 20s, and early 30s.
The first time I heard guys talking abut this in the manosphere, I was shocked how negatively they viewed this behavior, and the women engaging in it. After all this isn’t the 1950s, right?
Well the reality is even guys who are themselves involved in such behavior look down upon gals who are taking a “What’s good for the gander is good for the goose” approach to sex. The higher quality of “catch” a guy was, the less willing they were to consider a woman who had “ridden he carousel” as a serious longterm/lifetime partner.
Like it or not, believe it or not, this is how guys still feel today about all this. Even if they tell you they don’t! Even if they are trying to talk you into going home with them for some hook up fun that very night!
It’s been called lots of things, including a double standard, but it all goes back to biology — a promiscuous female is a cuckhold risk in a man’s eyes. And for a man, being a cuckhold is just about the worst thing one could be. Men have a very strong, visceral reaction to the idea. (Unless they have a cuckhold fetish, and well then that’s just another issue entirely…)
Consider the plays of Shakespeare’s era, all rife with jokes and references to cuckholding – it’s certainly nothing new. No guy wants to be tricked into thinking a child is his when it is not because he’s been with a woman who is “getting around.” (And in case we’ve all forgotten, sex is what leads to babies!)
For women, this is not a concern. After all unless the baby is switched at birth, we know a baby that comes out of our body is “ours” as silly as that sounds. But as couples who have experienced having a baby switched at birth experience, there is something profoundly disturbing and distressing about discovering the baby you thought was yours, really isn’t.
Or if all that makes no sense, think of it this way, when a hot guy wants to hook up or have a short term no strings attached sexual experience with you, he’s not saying it’s because you’re so hot. What he’s really saying is that you meet his minimum threshold for attractiveness, but not his minimum threshold for a long term or serious relationship. What he’s really saying is you aren’t hot enough! Ouch!
But yep, it’s all true. And I know that because I have heard guys say it anonymously online many, many, many times. So don’t kid yourself — and remember, you’re better than that! You deserve a guy who’s all in, not just a guy who just wants to put it in! And the guy who will be all in, he’s worth waiting for (and doesn’t he deserve more from you, too?)
Carousel riding. I would not advise it. Trust me on this one.
But what do you think? Please share in the comments!
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
Sue, you’re really not with it. Women in conservative church circles are having all kinds of sex and “well, this doesn’t count” sex.
“Letting a few bastards and their mothers starve or freeze on the streets, dependent on the generosity of the Church is better than the rampant bastardy and infidelity we currently have. Try to save everyone and you will save no one, and damn more besides.”
TSK:
There is wisdom to this. Humanity seems to have gone from one extreme to today’s extreme of enabling pathological behavior. I mentally wrestle with the question of to what degree should people be helped out of troublesome circumstances. Clearly women engaging in unrestricted sex as is the situation today has resulted in a total mess.
I value your opinions. I hope you continue to express yourself on these blogs. I also hope you meet a sincere young lady worthy of a young man with your apparent integrity.
Well done Poseidon, Sue he’s a good man!
The thing is there is much diversity in beliefs wi the red pill and the manosphere. There is no “one belief.” It’s all theory based on personal experiences, observation, and the way too limited research available. That’s actually what interests me about it, we’re figuring out and wrestling w a lot of unanswered questions!
I don’t have time to address everyone’s comments, but I agree that there are some interesting opinions here. And, nice to meet you, Poseidon! 🙂
I wanted to respond to Knives in the Narrative, though…
There are all variations of conservative Christian groups. There will always be some girls who succumb to temptation. Often it’s with the boyfriend that they will eventually marry, so maybe there is a shotgun wedding now and then. Other churches talk big talk but their actual standards are surprisingly lax.
I am fairly sure that if the girls in my particular faith were regularly partaking in premarital sex, that there would be far more unexpected pregnancies than we currently see. The whole culture and environment does not allow for too much leeway in this. A girl who was even remotely doing anything similar to riding the cock carousel would in no way be comfortable in our church. I believe it is the case with many other conservative churches, but not all of them.
Then we must consider the women (and men) who inflate their numbers out of shame and embarrassment. It’s impossible to know how many people truly are holding out. There’s so much shame in admitting it. For all the people who cry, “Oh, EVERYBODY’S DOING IT!” I think a lot of that is wishful thinking and projecting. They can’t fathom that others would be able to “resist temptation,” so they assume that nobody is. If they themselves couldn’t or wouldn’t, then anybody who claims otherwise is a liar! 😉
Poseidon, I do intend to keep on posting. Glad that you are getting something out of my thoughts.
The Shadowed Knight
TSK is a legit young man, The kind of youngster girls should be throwing themselves at but do not… ie the sort of fella who the man o sphere was created for.
One difficulty here is trying to make the argument about minutia. How many marriageable virgins over the age of 18 are there in the usa? 3? 30? Rule out the fat ones, the crazy ones, the deformed etc etc and the number is to small to be concerned about. The overwhelming number of women do not care about a man’s N count, including religious virgins. Even when they say they do, do they really? Women are natural born deception operators and when it comes down to it, don’t generally make these decisions in a logical fashion. Many of those girls who do care about a man’s N count will drop that concern in a second if its the right guy. She might say no to BV and yes to me, or no to me and yes to BV depending on how many triggers are tripped etc. Any of y’all remember BB from J4G’s? how many girls would tell him no? Or George Clooney?
It is almost always on a sliding scale for women and I would bet every dollar I have more religious virgins would say no to a guy because he is under 5’10” then because he has a high N count.
“It is almost always on a sliding scale for women”
hahahahaha, good one Ton.
If not for the slidage of the scale there would be not much point to even explore the possibility of marriage. hahahahahahahahahaha
Tarn, I believe I earned another couple of sammiches
“Rule out the fat ones, the crazy ones, the deformed etc etc and the number is to small to be concerned about. “
Wow, but you do seem concerned. You scoff and say there are maybe only 3 or 30 marriageable virgins in the whole country. Oh, and of those, most of them would be fat or crazy, and therefore nonmarriageable. And even if there are some marriageable virgins, surely they wouldn’t reject a guy like you, surely.
Your whole post in its entirety is spent trying to convince everyone that a few scant virgins wouldn’t reject guys like you! When there is a whole planet full of girls (we assume) who would want you, you are rationalizing why these few wouldn’t reject you.
However, I return to the girls described in RPG’s post “A World Without Feminism.” Those girls all sound lovely and marriageable. They sound like they’re raised with a strict moral code, and usually marry within their own group. Would the girls in the “A World Without Feminism” prefer a promiscuous, hypocritical player to one of their own? I don’t think so. How many other girls are there out there like that? Surely more than 30. Add to that the virginal girls who are “hiding in plain sight” and don’t want to reveal their status.
Of course there will be foolish girls or girls swept away by emotion. And there will be girls who will be fooled by a man who puts on an act and paints himself a “former player” but “he’s not proud of his past and wants to turn a new leaf.” But he’s only winning her by lying to her. A promiscuous guy who is unashamed, proud of his numbers, makes it clear that “what’s good for me is not good for thee” will be viewed as a hypocrite and very unattractive.
But you tell yourself otherwise, since it seems to concern you so. 😉
Tarn, I believe I earned another couple of sammiches.
Ah, I’m out of sammiches, P.
However, I *did* make homemade pizza and mini brownie-cakes for my coworkers this weekend. (That’s what happens when you live alone and make too much food, lol.)
I like you. Have some! 😉
🍰🍕🍕
Sue, Ton is a character, he’ll grow on your with time. As for if those dad’s would allow their girls to marry Ton, we’ll… He’d have to join their church and swear off many of his ways, so I am not sure Ton would even like that. As for only 3-30 virgins, well I was at an establishment the other night owned by a member of this church and it was like Scandinavian Goddess virgin paradise in that place, I kid you not! I thought, “Oh if only the red pill guys could see this, they’d think they had died and gone to heaven!” Lol.
LOL ya Poseidon, thank God for that sliding scale! On paper neither of my girls would have considered me ideal, height, age and rural background being the big three for one, my MC affiliations and what not being a liability to the other but here we are, happy together and working on growing our family.
Sue’s mistake is she assumes I want a wife or a virgin wife. Regular readers know my back story. No thanks to either. Don’t see me making that mistake again, but like most women she cannot help make this about her and her insistence the female supremacist view being the only correct view… as rightly called her on it. Dalrock’s people are the best at taking down this sort of troll, esp how fornicating withing a relationship being somehow more acceptable then ONS
I doubt many of those girls are virgins Bloom. I doubt that has ever been the case at any point in time in the world. I’ve seen the most strict moslem sects and they know they have to marry off the girls way before 18 to ensure the hymen is intact. No reason to think its different in the USA or anywhere else
Sue,
I come from a very similar background to your own. And I agree with most all of what you said, but there is very little room for people of your faith and background in the manosphere. Everyone here must conform to the accepted caricatures, otherwise they need to be shamed and blasted as trolls.
To some extent the manosphere is very similar to the Borg; “resistance is futile”.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
He’d have to join their church and swear off many of his ways, so I am not sure Ton would even like that.
Didn’t you say something similar about one of your male relatives, Bloom? Brother, I think…?
GoFigure and Sue,
If I may, I have a story that I recall now and then when in the Red Pill section of the manosphere (I greatly prefer the MGTOW forums and more egalitarian blogs).
Months ago, I was having a talk with a customer who is 5’3″ and having a lot of trouble getting past date #1 with the women he sees. He was venting about how it seems even women shorter than himself only want men 6′ and over. I was sympathetic to his plight, and agreed with him that such preferences are largely irrational, but also mentioned that I wouldn’t have a problem dating someone his size even though I’m 5’7″. To which he sighed and responded “Yeah, I know you’re good like that. But you aren’t interested in dating…so it’s not like your preferences help me any.”
Which kinda echoes what seems to be going on here. Sue is saying NAWALT, which is true. The guys are saying EWALT, which is even more true. The fact is, even if there’s 20,000 Really Good Women spread out in the US…their existence doesn’t do any good for the arguments here unless said women meet up with RP men who can report back. It’s like saying “hey, I know this absolutely amazing guy/gal in Seattle” to someone who lives in Fort Lauderdale…Like, what’s the frickin point? Person X is never going to meet Person Q, so it doesn’t matter if they’re spectacular.
It took me a while to see this, but I think it’s where the major disconnect is occurring.
Thoughts?
“To some extent the manosphere is very similar to the Borg; “resistance is futile”.”
The Borg used a mechanism that looked like a duo-tubular injectable device to inject their nanoprobes for the purpose of assimilating their desired distinctiveness. Although we men of the manosphere are not quite Borg, our assimilative devices do appear to function in a similar fashion; but not duo-esque.
Furthermore, manosphere assimilations result in a more varied outcome than Borg assimilations, which only result in another Collectivismal Drone. A low beta’s assimilative attempt might not result in an assimilation at all; only a heightened yearning for a quality assimilation by the human female of intent. At the other end of the human assimilative spectrum are Alpha-esque men such as myself and a couple of the other participants of this blog (not all) who when we apply our assimilation device to the human female results in a full fledge assimilation; sometimes the human female of intent then becomes coined, “Alpha Widow”.
Sue, seriously, I do believe there are a small percentage of young women who are indeed virgins and will wait for a husband. But very few that honestly actually are. I respect your decision to wait for your husband. Your honest virginity is a wonderful gift you will give him. I hope to Christ that my son marries a young lady such as yourself. Just remember that here many men have been very hurt by women and also by professional religitarions. That offer for you to take me out for an expensive meal still stands……..
Yes, my brother is not like Ton really, but in his own way he had habits they would not approve of. Their culture greatly elevates hard work, clean living, no drinking, no swearing…. It’s not for everyone! 😉
Actually GoFigure, the red pill is kind of like a big debate forum. There really isn’t “one accepted dogma” we enjoy hashing stuff out, picking it down to the bones, examining it from all angles, then piecing it back together around here… Open minds are required, and the ability to not take things too personally. It’s kinda fun, if you like that sort of thing. People who think differently than I do, I like that. It challenges my own thinking, helps me see the world in new and different ways. We all have a story to share….
RPG, thanks for the heads-up, it seems like I will need more time to get familiar with everyone’s quirks! 😉
Ton wrote: “Sue’s mistake is she assumes I want a wife or a virgin wife.”
Well, yeah, not knowing your background, I got that impression based on comments like these:
“As a man with a high N count I can demand anything I want in a bride for any damn reason I want, not the least of which is women like dig me.”
And then also your comment about “not being concerned” (about being rejected by marriageable virgins, since there are so few of them, by your estimation).
Words like this make it sound like you are a wee bit defensive, like you can’t stand the thought of being rejected, and must explain at length how such a rejection could never happen to you.
The truth is that most of us will be rejected by someone, if for no other reason that we wouldn’t be a good fit. As RPG rightly pointed out, these virginal Scandanavian goddesses would be a terrible fit for you, because you’d be expected to attend their church, join in their activities, and share their values. You wouldn’t want that, and moreover, these girls and their fathers wouldn’t want you. Which is kind of what I’ve been saying all along. They wouldn’t want you, and as it turns out in your case, you wouldn’t want them. So why such a thought is a problem and seems to incite these denials, I don’t know…
Then you start in with “Sure, they SAY they’re virgins,” and more of the same old, “They can’t be, they can’t be!” which the same thing that several of us here have experienced first-hand. If others can’t understand it, then we must be lying.
“Don’t see me making that mistake again, but like most women she cannot help make this about her and her insistence the female supremacist view being the only correct view… as rightly called her on it.”
I don’t even have a clue what you are talking about.
I am speaking from a culture that is, in some respects, on the “outside looking in.” We live among you, but we are not one of you. So many of the values that I grew up with, are touched upon in RPG’s posts. I’ve been lurking for a little while, reading her posts, often saying to myself, “I can’t argue with that… she’s right about that…” But this “female supremacist” stuff — where do you get that and what exactly is that supposed to mean? The only thing I can think of is that I had the audacity to say that yes, women raised with a strict moral code are going to reject men for reasons that some here (I gather) might not expect. It’s my world, but it’s not your world. Maybe I know a little bit more about it than some of you red pill guys. But, oh well, as goFigure wrote, “Resistance is futile.” LOL.
Now onto goFigure’s post:
“I come from a very similar background to your own. And I agree with most all of what you said, but there is very little room for people of your faith and background in the manosphere. Everyone here must conform to the accepted caricatures, otherwise they need to be shamed and blasted as trolls.
To some extent the manosphere is very similar to the Borg; “resistance is futile”.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Thank you for sharing your perspective too, goFigure! I have already been accused of being a troll several times already! LOL. As for being “shamed,” they can try, but …
I have lurked a little bit on some other manosphere blogs and sites. There are some intensely unhappy men there, and based on some of the things they say, and the attitudes they have? I can’t put all the blame on modern women or our current society. Something else is going on there too. Yikes. RPG’s blog is the first place I’ve found that doesn’t give me the creepy-crawlies.
@ Sue, If I did not see this group up close and myself, I probably wouldn’t believe it either. But trust me, it’s *old school patriarchy.* Those girls don’t go ANYWHERE without their dad’s approval, and with such a large community all watching each other, they don’t get away with much of ANYTHING. Girls are married right at 18, most paired up and promised to marriage by 16. Promiscuity would not be “forgiven” and such a girl would not be marriageable, if she were not outright shunned by her family or locked up at home, the boy fetched by the men, and nobody would go anywhere until there was a ring on her finger. I am not exaggerating! It’s not tolerated AT ALL. They are very works based, they don’t go on and on about grace and salvation. Young girls simply have NO OPPORTUNITY, NONE to be alone with boys their age/single guys, much less a chance to have sex with them. It’s courting, highly supervised, not dating. I am sure a few do, of course, but I would be highly surprised if the majority were “just pretending.” The kids simply don’t dare cross their folks, or their community, they just don’t, the price is just too high, and the sins never forgotten. They don’t “choose” to be good girls, the HAVE to be good girls, or ELSE. That said, VERY FEW AMERICAN GIRLS are raised anything close to that today.
As for the skepticism about “church girls” I can relate to this too, having attended for many years both a conservative Baptist church and several “nondenominational” ones. There was a lot of saying one thing, doing another, asking forgiveness, in both camps. Many people either lived double lives or just were barely a slim margin away from living like the overall mainstream culture and counting HEAVILY on Grace. For example, a family whose father was a deacon in the church, wow did they ever tout teetotaling! Alcohol was bad, bad, bad they would exclaim from the rooftops! But when you went to their house? They were offering you a margarita, beer, mixed drink, wine etc. as soon as you came in the door, I never saw so much alcohol (maybe like a “dry” county?) quickly followed by, “But don’t say anything…you know…at church…shhhh…nudge nudge, wink, wink.”
So I could see how if someone is primarily exposed to that “church” experience, they would think, “Yeah riiiiighttttt…..”
Also Sue, don’t get me wrong… I am not saying Ton is not a God fearing man, actually most of the men here are religious in one form or another and have high moral codes. But this sect where I live, it doesn’t seem Ton’s cup of tea, and yes perhaps he also would not be theirs. They are very much about conformity, I don’t see Ton as a conformist unless their beliefs matched his own which as far as I can determine, they do not. But again, that does not mean Ton is not a believer in his own right.
Keep an open mind, have a seat, listen, and you may be surprised what you might learn…
I’d add further, if women reading my words agree with what I say, well these men here are the ones who taught me! I gained this knowledge and wisdom from THEM. They did not learn this from ME. 🙂
Yep. True story!
Hard work I can do. 1 out of 4 proooobably doesn’t qualify me though. 😀
Tarn,
I would have said it differently, but what you said works.
The problem I have with everyone going after Sue in these comments it that both sides are correct, they are just talking past each other.
The men do not need to go after Sue because she has a minority view.
The problem I have with everyone going after Sue in these comments it that both sides are correct, they are just talking past each other.
Yeah. That happens. A lot.
Much of it is probably caused by the limitations of relying solely on writings instead of talking face to face. I’m not so good with deciphering body language myself, but voice inflections help a significant amount…and obviously those are not present online.
The men do not need to go after Sue because she has a minority view.
I try not to think of RP arguments from a male vs female perspective. Rather I think of it on a more individualistic level of Person X believes what they do because Reasons Y and Person B thinks otherwise because Reasons C. We are/were all treated differently by society, family, friends, teachers, partners, etc. so it’d actually be much stranger if we DID all agree on the topics here. 😛
The only times I get frustrated is when conversations become specific and someone says that I/my social circle “can’t” be what I/we are. There’s a big difference between saying “I’ve never experienced what you’re talking about” and telling another person “You’ve never experienced what you’re talking about”. That’s what SJWs do, like when they say men can’t experience sexism or white people can’t experience racism. No bueno. 😦
Good point Tarn, yes I am sure it feels (especially to her) like everyone is going after Sue. But really, they are more just saying, “No I disagree, and this is why.” Sometimes tho it can go into, “That’s not what YOU experienced” when there is no way for someone else to ever know that, and then yes things can go into a death spiral. I like that, just because someone else has never experienced something someone describes does not make their experience untrue…
Correct. However, it can make it very difficult for someone to imagine if they’ve never even heard of X being true, much less seen or personally experienced X. So the automatic response is No, when really it should be Maybe.
Exactly, and in reality there is very little we can 100% for sure say is “true.” People used to think for example, the earth being flat was true (and apparently some still do!) Just because something is a widely held belief, social norm, or cultural convention does not make it “truth.”
And as I said earlier, there is no one “red pill” philosophy, all this is very much under development and up for debate. These are all “theories” not “truths.” I am not even sure it is possible to determine such “truths.”
And further, while all this seems terribly important to us, in reality we are a speck of a speck off to the side of a very, very big universe we mostly know absolutely nothing about! However, that does not mean these things are unimportant because they do affect our day to day experience far more than what’s on the other side of a wormhole past some super nova… (we think! lol)
Yeah. And what can be true for one person (ex-wife was frigid, uncaring, demanding, and put him through the legal/financial wringer) is not necessarily true for another (wife is sensual, loving, good with honest compromise, and hates the misandry of the legal system). NAWALT and NAMALT, but EWALT and EMALT. Or, as I see it, Enough People Are Like That.
Yes, well said! I better drink more coffee before I start waxing exestensial on all of you (oops, too late! Lol)
I have lurked a little bit on some other manosphere blogs and sites. There are some intensely unhappy men there, and based on some of the things they say, and the attitudes they have?
Focus on this you do.
Many rational intelligent men there are.
Many fine things they do say
May I offer an analogy of the conversation that happened:
People can be addicted the good meth on their first exposure to it. And I can go study the brain chemistry, neuro receptors and neuro transmitters involved and in the meth addiction. After doing this I can safely say that all humans are meth addicts and I can prove it.
If you then come and tell me that your not a meth addict because you have never been exposed to it. You make a very good point.
If I come back with; you really are a meth addict you just need the opportunity.
Your reply with;. I don’t want to be a meth addict. I work hard to avoid being exposed to meth. I really would do anything in my power to avoid getting sucked into that trap.
My answer: you are a meth addict. You are biologically programmed to be a meth addict. If you can not accept that your a meth addict then you are a greenish monster that lives under a bridge.
Hopefully, my analogy makes sense. Both sides of this exchange make very good points. I am just advocating that rather then try and trash people who work on overcoming their nature, it would be better if we praise them for recognizing their weaknesses and working to overcome them. This blog exist to help women recognize and overcome some of their inherent weaknesses. Lets take time to pat them on the back from time to time.
Good point Go Figure. And as an aside, meth is a horribly destructive substance, I have personally seen many lives ruined by it, as it was prevalent in the town where I grew up and was also so where I live now, but less so since chemicals needed to make it are less available. People can literally go from “normal” to not caring about anything else (not even their own children) within less than three months. 😦 I would not recommend meth! Just like I would not recommend the many other “addictions” we have going in our taboo laced society. Perhaps we are all seeking that next dopamine hit? Whether it comes from people clicking “likes” on a selfie posted to social media, or the meth addict seeking their next fix?
Great article. If only I had learned this 20 years ago. I will be teaching this to my daughter. I thought sexual attraction was validation when I was young. Now I don’t really value it at all.
“…when a hot guy wants to hook up or have a short term no strings attached sexual experience with you, he’s not saying it’s because you’re so hot. What he’s really saying is that you meet his minimum threshold for attractiveness, but not his minimum threshold for a long term or serious relationship. What he’s really saying is you aren’t hot enough! Ouch!”
I found this discussion elsewhere and couldn’t help but comment. I am pasting it here because it probably won’t be up for long. Maybe this “Sue’s” blog??
http://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2016/01/want-to-marry-virgin-reader-question/#comment-487447
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I don’t like this concept of ”carousel” either, but for a different reason. I really-really don’t mind the number she has but I DO mind the fact that, in many cases, shes’s been “playful” with passing guys but when it comes to commitment she’s playing only the ”serious” with the potential hubby. And that she gave these passing guys her best years, with not one look for the dependable ones. She may even push as far as pretending to be hard to get. I don’t like being taken for a fool and a tool, and this is exactly what she would take me for if she does that to me.
If she’s a ”wild one”, she must be with all the guys she likes, ESPECIALLY the one she targets for serious goals.
See this comment from another website:
“A woman playing the hard to get with you after being the soul of the party (euphemism) is like a billionaire guy telling a woman that he wants to live with her in a cabin in the forrest because yachts and mansions are not what’s important in life”.
This is exactly how it feels.
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