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battle of the sexes, equality, feminism, gender, matriarchy, men, patriarchy, red pill, single independant woman, submission, women, women's rights
Today I’d like to share a story to help illustrate a point. I’ll get to what the point is later, but first the story…
When I was 26 or so, I had the amazing opportunity to travel to China and Hong Kong with my uncle, who is Chinese, born in China, raised in Hong Kong, educated in the US, and married to my mom’s sister.
He is my favorite uncle, and I am so blessed to have him in my life and world. Thanks to him I have been exposed to a wonderful and beautiful culture I never would have seen otherwise. The Chinese culture is the oldest continuous surviving culture on earth, and radically different from our own. Thanks to him, I have had a “translator” to help me understand the origins of these differences, which I am sure otherwise would seem quite baffling. (The culture is group based, conformity based, community based, and many other things rarely if ever found in American culture which prizes the individual over the group.)
The Chinese are also, thank Goodness, infinitely polite and ever patient. My uncle must sometimes just cringe in amazement at his American niece (very much a proud and loud independent feminist minded female at the time).
But back to the story. So I got to go on this trip. My Uncle’s oldest brother was also there, he met us there (he’s a longtime resident of New Zealand where he settled after college.) We also saw and met many other family members along the way, including a sister in Beijing, a sister in Hong Kong, a sister visiting Hong Kong from Maryland, their mother, uncle, and aunt all in Hong Kong, and various other cousins and distant clan.
There were banquets and feasts and touring and a trip on a boat down the Yangtze (pre-dam) and all sorts of amazing, amazing things. A trip of a lifetime.
While in Bejing we toured the Imperial Palace, home to the former Emperors of China, and a just amazing, must-see place. It is HUGE, and goes from large public spaces, to mid sized official spaces, to private residence spaces, to the most intimate spaces only the Emperor, his servants, and his wives saw.
Anyway most of the trip my uncle and his brother did all the talking, planning, and navigation. My uncle was so young when his family fled the communist takeover of China that he only speaks Cantonese, the language of Hong Kong. His older brother, eight at the time they fled, speaks both Cantonese and Mandarin, the language of mainland China. Hong Kong and China are vastly different places, cultures, and such — truly fascinating. Especially then, when China was just opening to the West and Hong Kong had just reverted to Chinese rule from Birttish.
But again, back to the story. After spending an entire day touring and walking from the front gates of the palace to the exit at the rear, we were all anxious to get something to eat and get back to our hotel. Cab drivers were waiting right outside the gate, very boldly approaching groups and seeking riders. I for some reason decided to take charge. I choose the cab driver, my uncle and his brother (my uncles really) looked at each other with a knowing look, agreed, and we got in. I felt so proud of my independence and my ability to make my way in the world as a fierce and fearless female!
When we got to our destination, the driver informed my uncles the price was significantly higher than promised. You see he was not an official cab driver with an agreed to fare and government backed policies, but a hustler, and thanks to me we were in his clutches. My uncles quickly paid the higher fare with little arguement. Problem solved! Or so I thought.
Later that evening they very nicely and patiently informed me I owed them for the additional fare, as after all the cab was my choice, so it was only fair. Cringe. They were right and I knew it, so I forked over the $40 or so extra, which at the time was a big part of my “spending money” for the trip.
They taught me something without ever saying a word and it was this — I should have trusted them to lead the way and make the decisions rather than try (demand) to foolishly “prove” myself their equal.
Eating crow is never a fun thing. But I took my lumps and choked it down without complaint. And I learned something that day — men know a lot more than we women often give them credit for. Listening and looking to them for guidance can be a wise strategy, but takes a humble and dare I say submissive frame of mind to yield, but it’s a lot better than eating crow. Try it sometime!
Or you can get used to saying, “Mmmmm, crow….yummy!”
What do you think? Please share in the comments!
(And for a good look at the Imperial Palace, the movie “The Last Emperor” shows it well, and tells the story of how China became a communist country, as well. Excellent watching!)
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
But was it because they were men or just had been there before? Was it one of the taxis where the dude pulls you around like a horse and buggy? Was it raining? I feel like it was raining in the story.
I am sure they could read the sign the man was holding and understand what he was saying, unlike myself. They must have trusted it enough to let me go ahead, perhaps in their way allowing me to experience a “teachable moment.” Then smile at me, the little grasshopper in training when the lesson dawns upon me. It wasn’t raining, but it was overcast and gray. I am glad it wasn’t raining as the palace grounds are mostly outdoor and there are vast stretches of open space between buildings. All paved with cobblestones, etc, staircases carved with dragons and all sort of magnificent things. And ancient Chinese wisdom, apparently! 😉
I haven’t heard the phrase ‘eat crow’ before. We say ‘eat humble pie’. Perhaps the former is the ingredient.
I would love to take that trip. Sounds cool.
I would highly recommend it! Of course I was so lucky to have two able and native guides who knew the languages and customs and led the way (mostly, except when I grabbed the wheel.) I am not sure the typical Westerner would have gotten to see the Hong Kong and China I experienced. In fact, I am pretty sure of it. Still — absolutely go if you can!
Oh but another tip, don’t point at anything! At a big banquet at a restaurant called humorously ” Jumbo” that floats in the bay of Hong Kong, we were once again the honored guests, this time of my uncle’s brothers classmates from medical school. The host took us to the tank rooms, where huge aquariums hold the fish that are served mere moments after they meet their maker. Anyway I pointed at this HUGE, magnificent, majestic, beautiful purple and blue iridescent fish, showing it to my aunt. The host saw my gesture and minutes later, that very fish was perfectly poached and in the middle of our table. Ak! My uncle whispered, “You better eat a LOT of that, and show much appreciation and joy as well. The host bought it for YOU, and it was over $200!” I “gleefully” ate up then too, feeling horrible that I had pointed the point of death at that poor fish unknowingly, and I sat on my hands for the rest of the trip 🙂
It really might have to do with them being male. My husband and I have a running joke about how men and women park so differently. It happened when we started noticing that men in our area would often back into parking spaces so they could get out easily. Most women just pull into the first spot they see open, it’s very rare for us to see a woman that’s taken the time and additional planning to back into a space. Obviously not all men do this, but try it sometime- next time u see a car or truck parked facing outward, see if the person was male or female. Men actually do seem to take the time to plan strategically and make their life easier, than most women.
No doubt. Men scan ahead. For instance I will know very much in advance, which lane I need to be in while driving. I spot slow moving drivers and prepare. Meanwhile my wife looks ten feet ahead of the car and deals with problems as they “pop up”. Drives me insane. I try to remain semi-feminist just to be open minded but driving is one sexist area that I feel justified.
Indeed Dragonfly, which is why it’s so…not sure what the word is…disturbing that in mainstream culture today men are more often portrayed as bumbling hapless baboons who need to be “schooled” by women rather than as the natural strategic masters they are, among other strengths!
Oh and no, it was a regular “car” taxi. But the other type would have been cool too!
In another town where we stopped along the river cruise, there was a big open air night market. But to get to its we had to walk from our hotel through a red light district, and actually most of the town seemed to be a red light district. My uncles let me stroll freely but they flanked me on both sides, as I in my usual completely oblivious “la dee da” way looked at the bootleg CDs and such. Giggling groups of teenage girls shyly followed me, watching my every move. I hoped they did not think I was the height of American fashion! Lol. Suddenly my usually cheerful and happy go lucky uncles became very very intense, focused, closed ranks around me, and hurried me back to the hotel. They didn’t say it at the time, but they had overheard a group of men talking, speculating if I were “for sale” and pondering what the price might be. Thank Goodness for my uncles, again! I am sure they would have fought for me, if needed. Luckily they did not have to. Luckily I somehow knew by their body language and tone to MOVE IT and ask questions later…
On the way back to the hotel I met eyes with a girl my age who was standing on the porch of a brothel, sobbing uncontrollably while she waited for her next “client.” I thought what a living hell that would be. It was not uncommon for people to go to rural areas and promise a receptionist or some such jobs to the young women of poor families, only to discover as that girl likely had upon arriving at the city, what the “real job” was 😦 For years she haunted me. I wish I had “bought” her from her “owners” whatever the price, even if it was the price of a new car or whatever, and saved her from her fate.
(Not to say all women working as prostitutes are doing so against their will, but I could just feel somehow for this particular girl, things were not good.)
Another lesson, life is better with the protection of good men.
Yes… Even recently in a FB add my husband saw, they were writing about strollers and said something along the lines of “in case your husband has forgotten how to open the stroller…” And he was like Really?? Do They think that men are that stupid!
UD, it seems like the sexism is usually against men these days. Women are the ones who think men can’t open a baby stroller…..
Dragonfly (and all) UnderDaddy’s blog on the “OMG did that just happen???” moments of parenting is absolutely hilarious, if you need to laugh so hard you blow coffee out your nose (or if your kids just vomited all over the car and you are feeling you can’t go on…) his is the blog to visit! 😀
And his very endearing descriptions of how family life and marriage can be a positive experience are heart warming, too. A good antidote to the many tales otherwise today…
http://shanghaiist.com/2016/03/19/thai_media_slams_greedy_tourists.php
Chinese are polite?
Slyvin, well not always… when it comes to a buffet of especially seafood, best to step aside!
I guess no culture is perfect?
To add, there are things about the Chinese culture that were hard for me to grasp. For example, to interfere with the girl on the porch would not be the Chinese way. They are huge believers in karma and I suppose when there are huge atrocities and inequity all around (and I saw some really heartbreaking things, children deformed and begging, lepers, folks on the verge of death from easily curable diseases, poverty that is unimaginable in the United States even in the most dire circumstances, etc) it is a way to say, “that’s their thing to figure out.” While it seems cruel, in many ways there is wisdom to focusing on your own immediate family and sphere of influence rather than meddling in others, and trusting others to figure their own problems out somehow… TSK said something similar in a comment the other day about baby mommas how coddling them only encourages that and such (I am paraphrasing…)
I like the teamwork here. Men can’t rightly call it out because of the fox and the henhouse situation. Men look out for the women and women stand up for the men. I like it.
This is kind of a conversation that has been going on between most of us regulars for several years now, lol. Welcome to the family! 🙂
And I am not kidding, these guys probably know more about me (in my tmi oversharing fashion! Hey it’s anonymous, right???) than my closest friends. I am not kidding! They know it ALL…. (Cringe)
“in case your husband has forgotten how to open the stroller…” And he was like Really?? Do They think that men are that stupid!”
Sadly, worse I think it implies “that useless bastard never does anything, much less help with the stinking kids, that stupid f*ck! Eat, Pray, Love baby!”
😦
Your post sounds like a great lesson for anyone: Respect your elders, and sit back and let those more knowledgeable and experienced take the lead and make the decisions. They know what they’re doing! 🙂
I hate the current trend in TV and popular culture to present men as idiots and bumbling incompetents. It’s annoying and unnecessary. Not to mention insulting and offensive!
Hey, RPG, as you know I’m a newbie and as I’ve told you in previous discussions, your blog is the first I’ve seen about the red pill that hasn’t given me the heebie jeebies. 🙂 This blog post has reminded me of something I’ve been wanting to ask and I’d love a woman’s perspective on it.
There is a recurring theme I’ve read on other red pill sites, heard from red pill guys, and it’s been on my mind. I realize that there are many different types of red pill guys and some of them are (to be charitable) “over the top,” so I’m not assuming that there is a one-size-fits-all opinion on this.
So here is my question: Have you already covered the claim sometimes made by red pillers (and others on the manosphere) “women are not as intelligent” or “women don’t need as much education because they don’t strive to do as much” as well as “women haven’t contributed much to society” (and different variations of this)?
I was shocked when I first heard this. I understand that men are more likely to be ambitious (they’d have to be if they’re the main bread winners in a family), men are more confident (there are a lot of reasons for this), and that could account for men being, in general, more successful in some areas. But it’s never been my personal experience that women are “stupid” or lack abilities or lack passion to accomplish things in their life. In college I didn’t notice a dividing line between male and female students in what they were able to do. I never felt like I was being “oppressed” because I was female either. I just did my thing and either I did well with it or I didn’t, just like everybody else.
Anyway, I’ll leave it there for now and if you have a blog post on this topic, I’d love to read it. Thanks! 🙂
That’s a good question Sue, I know we have discussed that before but I am not sure if it was here, or one other blogs where these regulars and I also comment. The conversation here isn’t only a few years ongoing, it’s going on across multiple blogs as well! Lol. But to answer that, or maybe I should write a post about this, very early on in my red pill experience I came across an article about how men built civilization, or some such. And yes it was IMHO a bit on the, excuse the term, piggish side. So I came all unglued and took the writer to town, pointing out his mother may not like what he had to say, and so on. I was HOT. After following the red pill for a few months, and getting to know these guys better, and their backgrounds and stories and such, I could later see that he wasn’t actually trying to be piggish. I wrote this in response when I had that later “ah ha” moment…
https://notesfromaredpillgirl.com/2015/06/03/because-things-dont-build-themselves-sista/
So for example when it sounds like guys are saying, “women aren’t as smart” or whatever, what they are saying comes from a place of being in a classroom with a certain percentage of women, in a topic that usually comes much more naturally to men, and seeing the women get coddling or extra help or grace they themselves don’t get, and then going into the workplace and having female coworkers (or managers) who really don’t grasp the subject matter still but are there because it proves “diversity!” and then these men silently have to make up the slack or fix the mistakes, etc. Imagine how maddening that might be. And then imagine if you ever said it OUT LOUD, even if it is the truth, you would lose your job most likely, or worse. So then that guy has had a bad day at work, and maybe his female colleague who should not have gotten her degree or her job but did because she fit some diversity quota or was hired by a clueless HR dept. , well the manosphere gives him that one and ONLY place where he can maybe vent that, and in typical guy fashion, minus any sugar coating.
So he’s likely not saying NO woman can do his job or master X topic, he is saying some women get a “pass” and then he and others have to deal with the fallout of that and he’s angry, and maybe rightful so.
I happen to agree. For president, for example. I want the BEST person for the job. If she’s a woman, fine. But I am not voting for anyone who isn’t the best just because she’s a woman. I want THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB. Whatever gender or color or creed.
If that makes sense?
Sue, if you look at the intelligence delta between men and women, it is significant. The curve on intelligence distribution also differs between the sexes. Men have a flatter curve, with a higher distribution and more extreme outliers, while women have a taller curve with a distribution more towards their center. So not only is the average man slightly smarter than the average woman, the smartest men are much smarter than the smartest women, and even the men only as smart as the smartest women outnumber the women by a large factor.
College classes with a sex ratio skewed towards women typically have a lower average intelligence than those that skew towards men. STEM fields require more intelligence and logical thinking to be successful, and those classes have a sex ratio that is overwhelmingly male. Depending on the classes, no, you might not have seen a difference, because a 110 IQ woman and a 135 IQ man are going to do well in English or History. Put those same two in Organic Chemistry, and the difference in ability will be unmistakable.
No, women are not stupid. Men are better. The difference is there. Not only are you more likely to be average, but if you are exceptional, you are still not as exceptional as exceptional men. Since men can do manly things and cannot have babies, and women can have babies but cannot do manly things, we leave men to do manly things, and let the women have babies. Women’s colleges exist to provide those exceptional men with wives.
The two women who have done the most to advance human knowledge are the mothers of Leonardo Da Vinci and Isaac Newton. What if they went to school, spent a decade working instead of having children, and we lost Newton and Da Vinci? Is that worth it? No.
The Shadowed Knight
Sue, also after listening for some time and learning myself, I started this blog, to try and act as a “translator” of red pill concepts into a language women would understand because yes, the red pill guy blogs are harsh at times, and well women aren’t welcome at some because they are some of the very few “guys only” spaces men have. I may not always “get it” myself, but I try. I really don’t think these guys mean harm in the way it might seem at first glance. Yes, there are the curmudgeons who well… but look for the good ones, the reasonable ones. They want us women to hear them, and to see it from their point of view, to empathize, and maybe to help if they can, they really do!
Well tsk since I just said the men aren’t really saying women aren’t as smart… (face palm)
But yes it is true, men are smarter in certain ways. I believe in certain ways women are smarter (like in reading emotions or subtexts or some social stuff) and that those different types of smart are two parts of a whole. So better if women do what they do well and men the same, and then there is “fair trade” for those opposite skill sets.
The shadowed knight: Did you really write, “Women’s colleges exist to provide those exceptional men with wives”? Really?
redpillgirl, THANK YOU so much for your comprehensive answer!
“So he’s likely not saying NO woman can do his job or master X topic, he is saying some women get a “pass” and then he and others have to deal with the fallout of that and he’s angry, and maybe rightful so.”
Absolutely I agree with this. I thnk it’s insulting for women to be coddled and babysat and artificially propped up in order for the college (or employer) to fill some diversity quota. I’d be heartbroken if I found out that I’d only been chosen for a position because I was a woman, not because of my abilities.
I also agree that when men see this happening, when they have to pick up the pieces for an unqualified woman (or unqualified anybody) because of “diversity,” it must be infuriating. I don’t blame them for wanting to vent.
But I have to disagree with you saying that the statements like this coming from the manosphere all are basically only saying what you’ve just explained: That men are tired of picking up after incompetent women…
One of the examples I saw was a blog piece entitled “The Case Against Female Education.” (Do a google search with quotes around that phrase and you’ll find the post right away.) That post is about a lot of things, and goes way out into left field. (To say the least.) YIKES.
But, it seems obvious that that blogger is a clever troll who brings out the worst in people in order to get clicks. However, it dismays me that at least some of the guys responding appear to take him seriously.
Articles and discussions like that guys (with some variations and modifications) are what really stick out for me.
In my own experience, I can say for a certainty that I haven’t been given a free pass because of my gender. Nobody is able to “fix” any work I have done badly, either I do it right or I don’t. I’ve never felt held back because of my gender either. In fact, the possibility of this rarely crosses my mind. If I fail, I deserve to fail. If I succeed, it’s because I earned that too.
How any self-respecting person, man or woman, would want to get an artificial boost is beyond me. It seems so demeaning to only be able to get ahead that way.
I want THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB. Whatever gender or color or creed.
If that makes sense?
Absolutely! And I’m in complete agreement!
“Yes, there are the curmudgeons who well… but look for the good ones, the reasonable ones.”
Let’s be blunt for a moment. The bad ones are horrible. Awful. Toxic. Dysfunctional. Awful. (Did I say that twice?) And you know what? From what I’ve seen, there is a lot of that going on and it’s really easy to find. That’s a real shame.
To be honest I think your blog is actually more about fairness, decency, anti-Political correctness. It could even not be classified as “red pill,” as it contains some universal truths and common sense. I haven’t read everything, so I might disagree with some things down the road, but most everything you’ve written falls into the category of “be decent, put yourself in the other person’s shoes, don’t be dishonest, don’t be cruel.” and so forth.
@ Sue I know what you are talking about, I avoid those type of blogs or comments, if there’s no “there there” I just move along.
The blog I used to follow that actually by blind luck was women friendly had amazing thought provoking discussions, super sharp commenters, really quality stuff. Unfortunately there were falling outs over I am not even totally sure what (thought policing, troll infiltratration, over zealous comment censorship, etc.) and it became defunct.
In order for such discussions to occur, especially w mixed gender commenters, it’s really key:
1. People don’t take things too personal
2. Agree to disagree or just flat out ignore people who bug you
3. People don’t insult each other
4. People have a sense of humor
5. Love thy (even annoying) neighbor
6. Take what works for you leave the rest
7. Take everything w a huge pinch of salt
8. Realize none of us knows everything but we all contribute something and we can all learn something
9. Don’t be disruptive, be constructive
10. Accept everyone is at a different stage of understanding. Everyone is coming from a different experience, some of them devastatingly painful ones
11. My favorite comment from another poster (a real curmudgeon too!) we are all doing our best to sort thru the smoking wreckage
RPG, oh yeah, I can barely go to some of those blogs, my eyes keep on bugging out and I cannot believe the kinds of things they say. What purpose is there in that? I understand that they are venting, and so much of it is empty talk, but it doesn’t seem healthy! Toxic is more like it. They seem so supremely unhappy. There’s no point in arguing or reasoning with them. I feel so sorry for any impressional person who stumbles upon those places. Wow.
Thanks for your list of ways to have a good discussion, that’s good advice.
I can’t help it, I keep on thinking to myself, “So much would be solved if we would just be decent to each other.” There seems to be so much “one upmanship.” and “Us vs. them” going on. There’s also a lot of “It’s ALL their fault” instead of realizing and acknowledging that many problems we have are a combination of failed communication, and missed cues. And perhaps unrealistic expectations on both sides.
I was also thinking, I am not so sure men and women recognize or appreciate each other’s types of intelligence because they are blind spots to the other.
For example, women might appreciate another woman’s mastery at sorting thru subtexts or especially keen emotional intelligence perhaps more than men would notice or recognize that mastery.
Likewise men might greatly admire another man’s strategic thinking, or engineering design nuances more than a woman might.
So we should be careful about declaring one gender “better” and maybe especially our own.
Each gender has inherent strengths and weakness, neither gender is perfect or w/I drawbacks and/or faults.
“Each gender has inherent strengths and weakness, neither gender is perfect or w/o drawbacks and/or faults.
That’s very true too. We can be blind to it.
Sue, I am curious, if you don’t mind me asking… how did you find the red pill? What blogs have you visited? Is there certain info or knowledge you seek here? How old are you? Are you married? Single? What’s Sue’s “red pill story?” 🙂
Sue, yes, I really wrote that. You can tell because it is in a comment I wrote. Typically that means I wrote it, unless an edit was made, but that sounds like something I wrote. Did you finish reading the comment or did you get that far and stop in a huff?
Bloom, I have a saying. It goes, “Fuck your feelings.” If Sue feels that I am being unfair, she can look up average IQ and bell curves and try to disprove me. If she does not like what she finds, that does not change a thing.
Reality does not care about feelings. Feel all you want about a stove, but you touch it and it will burn you. Feelings are not going to stop the burn. Right now we as a society are rolling our faces back and forth on a stove, frantically insisting, “This does not burn, we are fine, we are not burning.” I am not going to tell people that it is perfectly valid to beat their head against a stove, because it is not.
The reason a dancing bear is impressive is not that it dances well, even for a bear. It is impressive because it dances at all. I can go into a cage with a professional female fighter and beat her into the ground. If I decided to resist an arrest by a policewoman, she would be helpless to stop me. Women firefighters cannot do anything useful, so they become firewatchers lest they endanger someone. Women who try to work in a field that is a men’s field are dancing bears.
There is a reason that society had things arranged the way they did, and women want to change that because the feeeeel like they are being excluded for no good reason. There are plenty of good reasons, but they do not like the way they feeeeel, so they do not consider them valid. I do not consider feeeeelings to be valid, because they do not operate on the basis of reality.
The Shadowed Knight
Hmmm, I don’t like giving too many personal details. The less the better in my opinion. I used to divulge a lot more online and learned to regret that, so now I go to the other extreme… 🙂
But to answer some of your questions, I’m unmarried. I’m interested in politics. I belong to a few online communities which are predominantly liberal. I tired of that, was looking for something a little more centrist or right leaning. During my search I found some people mentioning “red pill,” linking to sites, and oh my word, my eyes popped out! Mostly in shock and not the good kind. I wasted some time being overly outraged, then I finally settled into, “These people are nuts” (because let’s face it, some of them are, and often they’re the most vocal and visible). I still was curious, but to be honest, there’s a lot of negativity out there. I was still curious about the red pill, but it seemed like I’d seen most of what there was to see.
The blogs and communities I’ve been exposed to are chateau heartiste, which I think is more of a pickup artist site, but it’s still under the umbrella of the “manosphere.” MGTOW, Return of Kings, Rooshv, A Voice for Men. It didn’t take too long lurking (often just a few moments) before something completely insane and outrageous popped out at me. It seemed that without exception, these sites were mostly a mixture of mostly toxic hatred, crazy, unhappiness… maybe there were some “good” articles there too, but I didn’t feel like searching. The first impression these sites gave me was awful. Who needs to wallow too long in that?
Your blog is the first one that wasn’t the same old same old. You cover the non-crazy issues and make a lot of sense. So here I am.
One thing I am gleaning from your writing, which I know I’ve brought up before, is that a lot of these topics are really more about non-political correctness and old-fashioned values. They’re not exclusively gender issues at all. Like for instance, the idea that women are supposed to get a leg up and special advantages, in the name of “diversity.” It’s not only women who have that happen to them. This is a political issue that’s been around for a while. This blog post we’re discussing right now: Respect your elders, these guys have a lot more experience, why not sit back and let them take care of things, they know what they’re doing! That’s a lesson everyone should take to heart. Your previous post, about not being a cheating disloyal idiot. Good advice for both men and women.
Well, that’s enough for now!
TSK wrote: “The reason a dancing bear is impressive is not that it dances well, even for a bear. It is impressive because it dances at all. I can go into a cage with a professional female fighter and beat her into the ground. If I decided to resist an arrest by a policewoman, she would be helpless to stop me. Women firefighters cannot do anything useful, so they become firewatchers lest they endanger someone. Women who try to work in a field that is a men’s field are dancing bears.”
I wonder if you even read my posts. I have been quite specific that I don’t agree with women getting special advantages. I think it’s insulting to push her ahead even if she’s not up to the task.
The part of your post that I questioned was the thing about all-women colleges existing to provide exceptional men with wives. Remember, I quoted that specifically.
RPG before said that maybe part of the disconnect here is that men and women recognize and value different things, or in other words, we are “blind” to some strengths in the other. Women are better at some things and men are better at other things, on average. I suspect there’s a lot of truth in that. You bring up IQ scores, and actually I’ve read something about that too, what I recall reading was that men were more often to be at the “extremes.” More men at the highest and lowest IQs. A higher percentages of geniuses and morons. Women are more evenly spaced. I don’t know, which is worse? I’m comfortable being in the normal IQ range than be a member of the higher percentage of male morons. 😉
As important as IQ is, I’m not sure that I can “tell” how high an IQ my favorite composer has, or my favorite author or artist. I think other things come into play when we’re talking about many of the people who have contributed greatness to our world. But if you want to claim that men are always going to be the best at everything, and women are best left to birthing or marrying brilliant men, I guess you can do that.
I suppose if I told you that I know a lot of women (and maybe I’m even one of these women) who have worked hard to become remarkable at something — even maybe way above average, even above some of our male peers, that you’d say that either we are delusional, lying, or that someone quietly gave us extra advantages and that’s the only way we were ever able to get ahead?
I’ve had quite a few of these types of experiences overseas, Bloom! 🙂
It’s always best to go with a native you can trust, who understands the language and culture. If you don’t have that option, it can be at best embarrassing or frustrating and at worst downright dangerous. I got seriously lost in Paris when I was 13 (the summer I turned 14). I went with a school group but they were all college aged and didn’t want me around. There was a chaperone in name only…I pretty much toured Europe alone, making mistakes. I knew just a little Italian back then, no French, and the Parisians of course refused to speak English. Good times. Paris wasn’t as dangerous then as it is now, thankfully, or I’d have probably disappeared and become a statistic.
Just about everything I’ve ever learned in life (at least, the lessons that stuck) I learned from mistakes. I don’t recommend that, but I think it’s pretty common in the human experience. I should add I’ve learned a great, great deal so that should indicate how many mistakes I’ve made lol!
Reading the discussion above, I generally prefer to be underestimated myself. I’d rather pleasantly surprise people than disappoint. It’s that way for pretty much everything. If I’m at the hospital, for instance (or taking a friend or loved one to the doctor) I won’t tell them I have any medical background at first. I learn more about people this way. Of course, if I’m on the actual job I want the patient to feel relaxed so in that position I try to approach with confidence. It’s situationally dependent.
Yes, women’s colleges existed to provide high quality men with a supply of high quality women. That is about the only thing that they were good for. Look at the state of college education now that just about anyone can get in. You cannot reasonably say that this is an improvement.
The Shadowed Knight
Just to add:
I try to keep in mind the Dunning Kruger effect in my personal reflections:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect
“The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which relatively unskilled persons suffer illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability to be much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their own ineptitude and evaluate their own ability accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: highly skilled individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others.”
This (and its corollary_ have held pretty true in my life experience.
TSK, I agree that many colleges are shortchanging everybody on education.
I’d like some clarification on some of your other comments. Do you think that women are best suited to be remarkable men’s wives, and/or to give birth to remarkable men, or can women do remarkable things too?
Is there any field of endeavour where men wouldn’t be always superior or “better”? In your opinion. You said that women are smart, but men are always “better.” In everything? In every discipline, ever skill, every talent?
Adding this comment for TSK: You said earlier that if Da Vinci’s and Newton’s mothers had not given birth to these men, but instead had gone to college and worked instead of having children, that we would have lost out on these two great men. Yes, I guess, assuming that they wouldn’t have done something else that would have created an alternative . . . maybe if they’d gotten a job as a nurse, they could would have saved the life of a child who would have been even more brilliant than Da Vinci or Newton. Maybe they would have introduced two people who would have otherwise not met, these people would marry, give birth to someone a hundred times more brilliant! You don’t know and I don’t either. You want to go get a time machine, go back and find out?
One of my favorite singers is Dame Janet Baker. She has devoted her time to singing and never had any children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_Baker What a waste, right? Who knows what brilliant child she could have produced? Maybe this kid would have cured cancer or helped us to colonize Mars! She should have chosen to give up her career and devoted her life to motherhood.
Dragonfly,
That bit about the stroller was meant to be deliberately insulting. It happens all the time in media. It’s called misandry.
Sue,
You may not realize it but TSK extended and olive branch to you. I haven’t seen him on a coed site in years except for the last few days here.
Getting back to the original post, I don’t think alphas eat crow. To do that, they would first have to admit to making a mistake.
fuzziewuzziebear: Okay, obviously I don’t understand everyone’s intent here! I’ll take your word for it. 😉 You could have fooled me!
Sue,
A lot of these guy have been put through he wringer. I got off light. I was having trouble trying to navigate online dating.
TSK
As someone who teaches organic chemistry, I can tell you most of the best students are women. You are correct about the very top students almost always are male. Men really tend to excel over women in applying that knowledge to a new problem/challenge.
I am now curious to know more about Newton’s and Divinci’s mothers and families…. Did they help in any way to nurture those great minds? Would those great minds have emerged regardless? I can’t remember which but I do recall a story about one mother of a great mind who instinctively knew her son was more than average and not less than, as his educators were telling her (and him) and how she took action to encourage his “oddness” even if others did not understand. I’ll have to try and find that…it was very touching. Einstein maybe? I am not sure… I will try and find it.
Go figure, are you an intj perhaps?
RPG,
I am not sure what a ‘intj’ is. Can you explain.
RPG,
There is speculation that the Mona Lisa was a portrait of DaVinci’s mother. While he was comissioned to paint it, he never let it go in his lifetime. That is why it ended up at the Louvre.
Einstein did have trouble with math in his youth. In later life, he was a good tutor to boys.
I can’t help you with the rest.
Oh sorry, it’s a personality type, from the Meyers Briggs personality test. The test is free and online. I ask because most everyone here is that, despite being less than 1% of the population. Many scientists are this. Female INTJ are even less common, Liz and Tarn are both INTJ. I am not intj, I am Infp, but those two types seem to get each other despite being near opposites. Anyway red pill discussions like we have here seem to appeal to the intj mind, which made me wonder if you are one based on mentioning the chemistry teaching. Sorry, random curiosity! You don’t need to answer but it may be interesting for you to look into.. 🙂
Tsk is likey correct that most women’s colleges did not begin w the intent to create career women, but to provide women with an education and the opportunity to interact w more educated men. The old “Mrs. Degree” joke. Initially hypergamy likely spurred women to want to attend college to meet a higher quality/higher status/higher earning power college educated man. Eleanor Roosevelt comes to mind… Although she was already from a very wealthy family herself. At one point, college truly was the privy of the aristocratic upper echelon class in America….unlike today. I am glad more people can seek higher education today, but would agree that things in colleges seem to be going haywire w the sjw nonsense, much more so now than when I attended in the early 90s. It was just simmering then…
Look at the bell curves for men and women. Lay them over one another. The gap between where the women’s curve ends and the men’s does is the part of human advancement closed off to women. Women cannot get past that because there are effectively no women beyond that point. Those men are the ones that really push the boundaries of mankind’s accomplishments.
The Shadowed Knight
tsk, is it because women are not capable of it, or is it because women historically have been raising families and not contributing to the individual advancement of ideas and such? I’d also argue that IQ tests measure a certain type of intelligence, but not the only type. However yes, there are no female Einstein’s or the equivalent…so one does have to ponder, why is that? It then becomes the chicken and the egg argument of nature vs. nurture… are they not capable or have the not had the opportunity? 🙂
Another point, the outliers are so special and so few, do they matter really when speaking of the average?
For example, just because Einstein was a physics master, does not mean all men will be good at physics…or should focus on physics…
Just like perhaps not all women are/would be good mothers, or should be mothers.
Then, sort of a tangent, I wonder what makes for that super special outlier? Is it genetic (they come from a family w smart genes?) or is it random (two totally ordinary parents just randomly by luck of the draw get an Einstein?) and then either way, are their points along the way where say Einstein could have been thwarted, never to achieve what he did? Were there things that made it more possible? If so what are they? Fascinating stuff…to me anyway! Lol.
I don’t think it is just lack of opportunities. We have seen some outstanding female biologists, and there are many women in medical schools… but far fewer in physics.
There is some evidence that these outliers are high functioning autistic or Asperger individuals. Which, if true literally means their brain work quite differently then ours.
Go Figure, I would believe that for sure. That’s why I wonder what conditions or how did they manage to channel that in the direction they did, versus that same intelligence being there but totally not functional? Perhaps it is nurturing, or personality, or something. I know someone who is very much like that, and sadly while he really should be working in a lab somewhere designing and inventing things, he largely just goofs off and has trouble keeping things together day to day, much less a job, while he tinkers for his own amusement in his garage. It’s too bad his mind was not channeled in a more productive direction because I have no doubt the raw material is there.
RPG: “tsk, is it because women are not capable of it, or is it because women historically have been raising families and not contributing to the individual advancement of ideas and such? I’d also argue that IQ tests measure a certain type of intelligence, but not the only type.”
This is an excellent point.
I’m not trying to be contentious (well maybe I am getting my dander up a bit) but I never did get an answer from TSK regarding his comment that Da Vinci’s and Newton’s mothers were better off giving birth than getting jobs. This to me sounds like an implication that as a rule, women are better off pursuing motherhood instead of careers.
He’s also talked about IQs several times, but as you’ve said, there are other types of intelligence. So, I don’t know where he’s getting this claim that men are always “better.” Better at what type of things? He doesn’t seem to want to expand on what he said before.
The reason why I get my dander up a bit is because it was historically not that long ago (relatively) that women were not allowed to pursue a serious career. For a long time, all we saw at the high end of some disciplines and careers were men, because either the women weren’t allowed (in great numbers) to study, or they were more likely pressured to raise a family instead. To a certain extent, that’s still true today — men are more likely to be breadwinners and as such will be more ambitious. I don’t have a problem with that — when you’re more ambitious in something, you usually get ahead. That’s the way the world works. I also realize that many women prefer to raise families. They are best suited (and happiest) devoting most of their time to raising families.
But what I find concerning are these claims that I sometimes see on the manosphere, that “women aren’t as good, period” and then the implication that she’d always be better off raising a family rather than having a career.
From early childhood, I was interested in a particular discipline (let’s say making widgets) and my parents allowed me to pursue it. It’s my belief that when you have an aptitude for something and you are dedicated and work hard for it, you usually end up better at it, or “higher than average” and that’s been my experience. Because I was working harder for it, I got better at it.
In my field, I don’t find a connection between excellence and gender, what I find is that those who work harder are better at it. I may sometimes find that men make better blue widgets and women make better red widgets, but I don’t see any hard and fast trends, nor do I see that men are always the best widget makers overall.
I know I was “born” with the desire to make widgets. I didn’t need any sjw feminist pushing me into it. For me, it started very young. All I knew is that I loved doing what I loved doing, and so I kept working at it. This is how I believe we all should view the work we do. We should be suited for it, and we have to work at it.
Sue, I am assuming you do not have children yet, as you are unmarried, but I saw pretty quickly after having my own children (who I love and am so happy to have!) why women do not rule the world. Children take a HUGE share of a woman’s time, energy, and resources. And if a woman is a mother, I think she should give that to her children. Someone has to make the money and bring home the food, and so traditionally that was the man. It was a division of labor borne mostly out of necessity, not some oppression caused by men, not because anyone was better or lesser. As a woman and mother I still have a career and then in addition to that I have my biz (which is in a mostly male field but I do it because it fascinates me intellectually not because I am trying to prove anything) but even so, I keep both those things simmering on the side and put my children’s needs ahead of that and my own, for now. Because that’s what THEY need. It is a season in my life, and it is already going by more quickly than I would like, and someday soon (sniff) they will be grown and gone off on their own paths. Sure if I did not have children I would be able to devote much more time and energy to my “work” but I choose to have children, knowing I was also choosing to take that path and that it would impact the other path, and I was OK with that trade off.
A starting point for those interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence
Totally agree with Blooms comment on women not being able to rule the world once they’re mothers. I had strong ambitions too when I was young… Had a determined occupation by age 9 🙂 I even remember telling my best friend in college concerned my career, that my baby would just have to come second. But after having him, everything changed… And I couldn’t believe I had felt that way before.
And as for the Mrs Degree, it really does seem likely. It happened to me, and I know a few others who married in or after college as well.
Sorry for any typos, on my phone!
Children take a HUGE share of a woman’s time, energy, and resources. And if a woman is a mother, I think she should give that to her children.
Of course! If you’re going to be a mother, your duty is to them first! If your pursuit of a career has to take a back seat until after the kids are raised, that’s the way it is.
It’s funny, because my mother is also a good “widget-maker.” (Different type of widgets than mine, though.) What I saw growing up was that my dad was her “biggest fan” and was always showing her off, encouraging her to make more widgets. (I love talking about widgets, lol.) And of course, my mom was always proud of the widgets my dad made as well.
When I developed an interest in making my own widgets as a child, I was encouraged to continue with it. It was the most normal thing in the world. You can imagine that it came as a shock to me when I started reading comments on the manosphere, where some men seemed to disapprove of women being “allowed” to do this. I can’t imagine a loving husband (as my father has always been to my mother) not encouraging his wife to pursue something she loves. (Just as she would encourage him in the same way.)
Widgets,
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/01/08/the-proverbs-31-woman/
RPG,
according to a couple of free online tests I am an intj.
Hey, you asked.
Yes Sue, I see what you are saying. My guy now, he encourages and supports my professional endeavors as well, while at the same time firmly committed to the idea that being a mother is my most impt. job at the moment. So those guy are out there! And there are several around here even!
LOL, I knew it! I love INTJ’s! Such deep thinkers, I think you will enjoy the folks around here.
Shucks, now I want to make widgets too!
😛
I’ve always liked that word, “widget”. 🙂
RPG wrote: So those guy are out there!
Of course! I’ve always assumed that most guys would be that way, because why wouldn’t they be? It’s how decent people behave, isn’t it?
Liz, we all make widgets! It sounds like you make excellent widgets! 🙂
I personally enjoy making thingamajiggers, but if you like widgets more power to you.
Of course! I’ve always assumed that most guys would be that way, because why wouldn’t they be?
Because cynical and jaded they might be.
“Given up” some have
To find them, advertise one must
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2015/01/03/a-novel-online-dating-approach-for-women-what-do-you-have-to-lose/
I think I remember thingamajiggers from them thar hifallutin’ chemistry courses I took, back when thar were only the earth, wind, fire and water elements.
@ Sue, again I think this is based on your experience/frame of reference. In my experience….in the larger culture…well…it’s best not to assume anything if not discussed! In my world there is no “shared” group assumptions, I interact with people with all sorts of ideas of how it works! As a larger culture, I don’t think Americans can say anymore as a unified group “this is acceptable/decent/norm behavior.” Which is part of the problem and something discussed often here.
It is an inescapable fact of life that the talents and abilities of women cluster more closely to the median.
In this case we are talking about IQ. The further left and right of the IQ bell curve the more men dominate. Women become extremely rare extremely quickly a standard deviation or two from the median. I think once you hit like 140 there is something like 200 men for every woman. Or maybe its 160. Doesn’t really matter, you get the point
This is also true when deal with racial demographic groups as well and is in no way insulting unless you are some dumb-ass who believes in the blank slate theory stuff and that IQ is the measure of worth.
This distribution of abilities holds true across a host of things and at the end of the day women are generally not as good as men. We call women herd creatures for a reason but we are talking in general. So yes some women are smarter or better at something then some guys
Because of biology the most important thing a woman can do is raise a family. For a nation or tribe of people demographics is density. If women chose to have jobs over babies they are destroying their tribe
I will also point out my grandmother was one of the best dog trainers in the nation back when women weren’t allowed to be successful. More leftist bullshit from Sue and her typical left wing concern trolling
@ Ton, the last sentence… ummm…. maybe not needed 😉 Ya know what I mean? Plus, makes you sound all grouchy! 🙂
p.s. so you come by your dog rescue/rehab interest honestly then? Cool! I share my grandmother’s obsession with plants, among other things… I do think such interests could be hereditary!
Yes, we are better off that Da Vinci’s and Newton’s mothers gave birth to them instead of some pointless job. Yes, as a general rule, even as a strict rule, women are better off marrying and having children than doing some pointless job. Men can do pointless jobs, but we cannot have children. Women have to do the having of children.
Nobles were most of the scientists until more recently, and even though noblemen and noblewomen had the wealth and leisure to dedicate themselves to the study of the universe, it ended up being men. Women were encouraged to learn to play musical instruments more than men, but the best composers are men. Women were responsible for cooking, but the best chefs were still men.
If you can find a woman to do it, you can find a man to do it better. My favorite example is childbirth. It was considered a woman’s place, not a man’s, and men stayed out and let women handle it. Finally, tired of watching their wives and children dying, men created obstetrics and vastly reduced death in childbirth. Men are better at giving birth than women and we cannot even get pregnant!
Bloom, this is the complete comment, please delete the other one.
The Shadowed Knight
The truth is neither grouchy or happy it simply is but the question is, why do you want me to talk like a woman?
Dogs…. my love of dogs? Not so sure. When I was a kid we had a lot of hunting dogs and they were only chores. Dogs as pets didn’t come along until I was a teenager or there abouts My skill with dogs, such as they are, I learned from her but was so long ago its more instinct and lack of fear now but mostly I enjoy dogs because they aren’t people
Also what is a conservative woman who wants to work and not have a family really conserving?
I haven’t been around much. And I still haven’t learned the last manosphere lesson that keeps getting presented to me in various forms:
“Men and women cannot discuss intergender/intersexual dynamics in any meaningful way.”
So today is day 2,459 of my inability to internalize this last lesson.
Sue:
The fact of the matter is that in most fields of endeavor, men are more accomplished because they work harder at them for longer periods of time and with more concentrated effort.
Men’s only work options are (1) work; or (2) starve.
Women’s work options are (1) work full time; (2) work part time; (3) work when you want, (4) Stay at home mom. Any woman choosing options 2, 3 or 4 can have a man or the government support her to make up any support deficit. And she will have the option of moving among options at her whim and fancy. All of society will support her in any option she chooses, at any time.
Women’s lasting contribution to a functioning society is marrying men they’re attracted to; and birthing and raising those men’s children. How do I know this? Experience for one. Our crumbling society, for another. And — I have known many professional women who are childless, some by choice, most because of waiting too long. Their single greatest heartache is that they didn’t have kids, or couldn’t, for whatever reason. These women are absolutely ripped apart inside because of their barrenness. They drink too much, they have pets they smother with affection, they take mood altering drugs prescribed by psychiatrists – all to numb that excruciating pain.
These women have spent years in therapy, downing pills and alcohol, and for what? Because they waited too long, and because they didn’t prioritize having a family. Somehow, their 401(k)s and their trips to South America to bang Reynaldo the hot bartender haven’t soothed their hurts.
And it is painful, and it is exquisite. I know these women. I used to date a few of them. I have known them since we were young. They are now well into middle age, in their 40s. The pain and anguish they describe is heartbreaking. But it is a pain they brought on themselves, for the most part.
Many of these same women, if they’re married, are married to men they’re not all that attracted to, or aren’t attracted to at all. Again – they waited too long. They married men who were left over – the divorced men, the lonely hearts, the socially awkward, the strange, the odd, the “guy who always got picked last for the team in Phys Ed back in junior high but who grew up and now has his master’s degree”. They are vaguely unhappy for reasons they can’t describe, or that they won’t describe for fear of “hurting” their milquetoast, schlubby, unattractive husbands.
All I can do is shake my head and turn away, because I know why they’re unhappy. I know what happened. Again – they brought all of this on themselves. They bear much of the responsibility for their plights. They married these unattractive schlubs because being married to a “meh” guy is better than not being married at all. They stay married to these men because, at the end of the day, being a married unhappy woman is better than the unknown – it’s better than being a divorced kinda satisfied woman. And the only thing WORSE than being married and unhappy is being divorced and unhappy.
_________________________________________________________
But, Sue there’s something much more important going on here. You read up on manosphere stuff, and here. TSK said something that was true, but you didn’t like it. It bothered your feelings. He’s right – fuck your feelings. Your feelings are real, but they aren’t the truth.
You don’t like what you read because it makes you feel bad. Worse, you’re questioning that what he said might be true, despite everything you’ve read to the contrary. Despite everything your parents, pastors, teachers, and trusted adults told you.
And it IS true. Those adults – they lied to you, or more accurately, they didn’t know enough to tell you the truth.
You need to have the courage to face the truth.
Fair enough Ton, you know I am used to you, fond of you even, but I do worry you might scare others! 🙂
(Ton and I got in a HUGE fight when we first met online, btw. But we quickly got past it and I have learned much from him, him from me? Who knows! I hope so. He hangs out anyway. Lol. 😉 )
I know two women, my mothers age, who did not have kids by choice, although they were married. It was “the thing” at the time. Two of my mom’s four sisters also choose not to have kids. All those women were pretty OK with that choice until their friends started having grandkids, and their families increased in size, and they had things to do and report, while these women don’t have that, they go to dinner at other family’s homes for the holidays, their life story is shrinking not growing, one is a widow and totally alone. She worries, A LOT, about what if something happens to her? To her health? To her ability to do things independently? And the two I know have adopted me as some sort of pseudo daughter. I provide that, for lack of a better word, “drama” a child would except of course I am not really their child so it is similar but not the same. And yes, some woman are not good moms. Maybe some women shouldn’t be moms. But then again, I know people who had horrible moms but they themselves are remarkable people. Anyway, it’s a decision a woman may not regret when young, but more so with time. I am not sure this is given enough thought, until it is too late.
Compare to my babysitter, she will soon have 2 children, and God willing she will probably have 6 or more. There are women in her clan who have 200 people descended from them when you count children, grandchildren, great grand children. These women never ever worry, “What if I am alone?” But then again, women in their tribe consider each child a blessing, not a limitation. something that adds, not takes away. Looking at it that way is a much more positive way to view children, I would say. American society values independence so highly, considers dependance, interdependence, commitment, ties as a restraint for the most part, a negative. But are they?
RPG wrote: “In my experience….in the larger culture…well…it’s best not to assume anything if not discussed! In my world there is no “shared” group assumptions, I interact with people with all sorts of ideas of how it works!”
So what I was saying is that any “decent” man would not discourage his wife from pursuing what she loves, and what I think you’re saying is that “Don’t be so sure!” I guess my definition of “decent” does differ from others here, doesn’t it! wow.
Ton wrote: I will also point out my grandmother was one of the best dog trainers in the nation back when women weren’t allowed to be successful. More leftist bullshit from Sue and her typical left wing concern trolling
Here we go again. I have said several times that I personally have never felt held back because of my gender. If you want to claim that historically, women have NOT been held back, in general, then I’m flabbergasted. I think it’s well documented that some women were, it was part of the culture. It wasn’t that long ago (historically) that women weren’t allowed to vote and weren’t allowed to own property. I’m not playing the victim card, because that fact hasn’t affected me, my mother, or my grandmother, but historically it is what it is. If we look back at who was a great writer or great composer 100, 200 years ago, women don’t dominate and I don’t think we can say it’s only because they simply weren’t “good enough.”
Your grandmother sounds remarkable, but then again so does my mother and father, my grandparents as well. We are fortunate to have such people in our lives.
You say that “at the end of the day, women are not as good as men,” and I ask, is this true for EVERYTHING? You know there are all sorts of disciplines. I won’t argue that men can dominate (in a measurable way) in some of them. But I was specifically moving past IQ into other areas (as was RPG) and all I can say is men dominating in everything has not been my observation at all.
So tell me, does it require a high IQ to have an expressive and beautiful singing voice? Are men always going to be superior in having the ability to express, creatively?
TSK: Yes, as a general rule, even as a strict rule, women are better off marrying and having children than doing some pointless job.
Well, sure, if given a choice between working as a cashier at Wal Mart and raising a family, most women would be better raising a family. But you specified “pointless” and I’m not thinking of only “pointless.” There are a lot of jobs that are anything but that, and women are allowed to pursue them. It sounds like Liz has a non-pointless job. So does RPG, so do most of us females here.
Dame Janet Baker’s “widget” is singing, and she’s never had any children. So… a waste? Did she let down her tribe? Her father or her husband should have forbade her from pursuing singing? It’s a serious question I’m asking here. I’m curious to know where you stand.
Women were encouraged to learn to play musical instruments more than men, but the best composers are men. Women were responsible for cooking, but the best chefs were still men.
This is something I’m also curious about. The beauty of music and the way food tastes, these are subjective things. We can argue that men are more famous, more dominant in these fields, and this can be explained by men being more ambitious, more confident, more assertive. (I’m not begrudging them that.) And, maybe society “expects” men to excel at these things. But, if we can’t all agree about which film “deserves” to win the Oscar, how can we all agree that this man is always the “best” composer, the best chef. I don’t think we have a way to measure objectively which food tastes “best” or music sounds “best,” in the way we measure IQ. In other words, we have the right brain disciplines (art, music) and the left brain disciplines (math, science) and their excellence is judged differently.
That’s what I think RPG was saying before. And that’s what I have witnessed in my own specialized ‘widget’ field. I don’t see this huge cluster of really good men at the top, and only men. I see some people are better than others, some men are better at the green widgets and some women are better at the purple widgets, and much like trying to choose who gets the best Oscar, it’s impossible to really determine who is best.
But if you guys want to argue that even with things that are not as easily measured, that men WILL always be best, then what do you suggest be done with it? Do you suggest that every woman born with a desire to sing (like Dame Janet Baker) or a desire to compose, to write, or whatever it is she loves, should be discouraged from doing so? Even if she loves it with all her heart, too bad, let the men do it instead?
Ok Sue, I get it if you don’t agree, or if your experiences differ, but enough. Why are you here? To convince us the red pill is a bunch of garbage? I don’t think that’s going to happen. If you are here because you are truly open minded about what you will find? Great. How about you stop pointing out what’s wrong with everyone else’s thinking and focus on yourself and what YOU can add, or learn. OK? I tire of it… Perhaps I am hormonal, but the world is not the perfectly rational, realistic, fair, decent, place you think it is, in my experience. If it were, I would not bother writing this blog. Mkay?
And for those here who have known me for any length of time could say, that’s about as firm as I have ever been here. It takes a lot to get me there. Comprende? Enough.
As I said troll, sue is right out of the feminist handbook
I see more posts slipped in: The deti wrote:
TSK said something that was true, but you didn’t like it. It bothered your feelings. He’s right – fuck your feelings. Your feelings are real, but they aren’t the truth.
You don’t like what you read because it makes you feel bad. Worse, you’re questioning that what he said might be true, despite everything you’ve read to the contrary. Despite everything your parents, pastors, teachers, and trusted adults told you.
You assume that I don’t know anything about this subject through direct observation.
What I have seen is that there are a lot of different people out there. The single guy, the friend of my dad’s who never married, I didn’t see him as being particularly happy. The artist friend of a friend who lived to be a very ripe old age and as far as I know didn’t have kids — she still had a rich life. She wasn’t crippled up with regret or bitterness. She had an extended “family” that loved her. The ladies in our church who never married, but who loved the church — not crippled with bitterness, seemed to have a lot to do, they “served” very well. Some really felt the pressure to marry, and were happier when they did so, but with others … it didn’t seem to ruin their lives and they didn’t die deeply depressed and full of regret.
I am not going just by what I was “told,” but what I see. That’s what amazes me about these guys telling me, to basically, “ignore your lying eyes, believe what we TELL you.”
And another thing I’ve seen, is women (and men) who have deep, deep regrets that “I didn’t write that novel,” or “I wish I had learned how to play the piano.” but they were pressured into thinking that they “couldn’t.” A lot of unhappiness and bitterness can be borne from having a God-given talent and being pressured into not doing anything with it.
I think a lot of people assume that the only regret a woman can ever have in her life is not having a family or not getting married. That can be the case. But what I have seen is women who are bitter, jealous, unhappy, adrift, because maybe they had kids but then when the kids are gone … what do they do? What ARE they without those kids? How do they fill their days? What I saw in my mom is that she always has something to fill her days. She loves us kids, she’s been a good mom and good wife, but my father has given her a great gift by encouraging her to pursue her talents.
RPG wrote: To convince us the red pill is a bunch of garbage? I don’t think that’s going to happen. If you are here because you are truly open minded about what you will find? Great.
I thought the red pill was garbage (I was clear about that) based on some of those other sites I saw. When I saw your site, I thought, “This woman sounds rational! Let’s hear what she has to say.”
I am a little lost here.
Are you saying that there’s something “un-red-pill” about a woman, for example, having a talent and pursuing it? Yes or no.
Are you saying that in every discipline, men are ALWAYS going to be the best? Yes or no. I’d like the ladies here to explain this to me, because seriously, it does not compute.
Yes, women should be discouraged from work and encouraged towards family. A woman can sing and have a family, but she cannot be a singer and have a family. Now she will never have children. She could have sang to her family, at her church, for her town, and still had a family, but she gave that up for fame.
Once the children are grown and gone, women can pivot to their interests. There was a rocket scientist who left her job to marry and have children. She kept up with her studies while she raised her children, then returned to rocket science once she had time enough. She did her duty to her people, then enjoyed her passion. That is the proper way to order your life.
And let us not pretend that women are doing such vital work. If they were really needed, affirmative action and equal opportunity laws would not be needed. Most women are doing the same thing that they would be doing at home for someone else for pay. If they stayed at home instead of demanding that men let them in, then they would be much better off.
The Shadowed Knight
Sue if you agree, why are you disagreeing with everyone?
Ok I am cooking dinner, I don’t want to come back to a huge mess here, k? Enough. If you think it’s garbage, move on… yeesh!
me me me I I I
What can be more important then the next generation of strong healthy White babies?
Or put another way, I hear you saying Sue “if people would just be decent and do what they should, it would work.” Yes. True. But they don’t. The entire Old Testament is basically that story right there. They don’t. If you do, great. Keep it up. But stop arguing w others please. Be constructive, you discredit your own argument and self description if you do not.
Or start a blog called “It’s all fine” I am sure that some will agree. I am glad it is all fine for some, but anyone with eyes can see it is not fine on the macro level… This country and our culture is sliding into the toilet fast. I am doing my best here to raise awareness of the obvious.
@ Ton, I hope Sue does not prove you right. Your head is big enough already 😉
Nope, Ton is not right. I’m still here!
Okay, let’s all step back a moment and take a deep breath! 🙂
RPG, I apologize if I came off as overzealous. I don’t think what you write is rubbish. I already explained (and I think you can agree) that there is some “over the top” stuff on other red pill sites, and that was a turn-off. Most of what you write aligns with conservative, non-politically correct thought, so that’s why I kept on reading, and why I started posting.
Though I will say that I think the “women and career” thing is really tripping me up. I think that is my main sticking point. Other areas, not so much. But, let’s see how far away our opinions really are on career vs. family.
So. Let me give some “case histories” and my opinions.
I know a lot of women who “don’t know what they want to do” when it comes to choosing a major in college. They are pressured to find something, but they are scared and have no strong passionate preferences. In another era, they would have been happy raising a family, and I think it’s a shame that it’s now “unacceptable” for them to do that.
I know a lady who had a marked talent for creative (right-brain) widget-making. She was told there was no money in it, so instead she got into a technical field. She married and started having kids and she told me that she hated going back to work. She would have preferred staying at home to take care of the kids, but she had no choice; if she left work for those years she would have been hopelessly behind in the tech. I think she should have never been in the tech field (it isn’t her first love), she should have pursued the right-brain widget-making job, and when she had kids she should have stayed home and returned to right-brain widget-making when the kids were raised.
I knew from a very young age that I loved making widgets. I would be very unhappy if I had not been allowed to pursue widget-making. Nobody ever had to “tell” me that I should want a career in widget making. I always knew how much I loved it.
My friends sometimes said they envied me, because they didn’t know what they wanted, and I always did. Women like me should pursue where our talents lead us. God gave us these talents for a reason. Some of us will have a family and use our talents too. Others (like Dame Janet Baker) may not have children. Since presumably women like Dame Janet Baker are a small minority, it seems like no one size fits all. When someone has a passion that is very strong, they should pursue it, regardless of gender.
It seems to me that there are many women who don’t have a strong preference in what kind of job to have. There are probably a hundred of them who don’t care that much, vs. one of a Dame Janet Baker type (I suspect). If they don’t have a strong preference, then it’s likely they would be just as happy raising a family and not focus on a career. Why not let them without making them feel ashamed?
I’ve always believed that the harder you work, the better you get. If I work harder, I get better. Everyone has a limit to how high they’ll inevitably go, and it will vary from person to person. But I like to think that for each of us, male or female, the “sky’s the limit” as long as we keep on working. (This applies to right-brain more than left-brain careers.) If someone tells me that I am destined to never get past a certain point, based only on my gender, it doesn’t align with what I’ve personally witnessed in my field, so I reject it.
So, what parts of this are compatible with red pill, and what parts aren’t?
Sue,
let me say that my definition of a decent man is basically a match for yours. Now let me see if I can address a few of our questions. (Understand, that many men on here disagree with me).
You say that “at the end of the day, women are not as good as men,” and I ask, is this true for EVERYTHING?
So tell me, does it require a high IQ to have an expressive and beautiful singing voice? Are men always going to be superior in having the ability to express, creatively?
The deti basically answered this when he said:
The fact of the matter is that in most fields of endeavor, men are more accomplished because they work harder at them for longer periods of time and with more concentrated effort.
Sue said: But if you guys want to argue that even with things that are not as easily measured, that men WILL always be best, then what do you suggest be done with it? Do you suggest that every woman born with a desire to sing (like Dame Janet Baker) or a desire to compose, to write, or whatever it is she loves, should be discouraged from doing so? Even if she loves it with all her heart, too bad, let the men do it instead?
I think most red-pill men would say that she should pursue and do whatever she loves, but she needs to understand that pursuing her love can/will have consequences. Specifically in her ability to find/attract the mate she wants. Also, if having a family and kids are something she desires, then she should make that her primary desire and put her love of other things on a back burner.
Well, sure, if given a choice between working as a cashier at Wal Mart and raising a family, most women would be better raising a family. But you specified “pointless” and I’m not thinking of only “pointless.” There are a lot of jobs that are anything but that, and women are allowed to pursue them. It sounds like Liz has a non-pointless job. So does RPG, so do most of us females here.
Sue, I would argue that all jobs are very near to pointless and the only important job in this world is how you raise your kids. (This applies to men as well as women).
I am a little lost here.Are you saying that there’s something “un-red-pill” about a woman, for example, having a talent and pursuing it? Yes or no.
NO, I don’t think anyone here wishes a woman to live in misery because she made the wrong life choice.
Are you saying that in every discipline, men are ALWAYS going to be the best? Yes or no.
Does it matter? Men and women should work together as teams. More often than not it will be men who will be the best for reasons that have already been pointed out.
I’d like the ladies here to explain this to me, because seriously, it does not compute.
I am not a lady. Just to reiterate; in today’s society women are told that they can have it all…. happily ever after, blah, blah, blah. The red-pill idea is just to say it is not going to work that way. All our choices have consequences, that will affect our future options.
Most red-pill men seem to be looking for women that have husband/family at the top of their loves in life.
AAAAAHHH, can someone please fix my italics. I need to go study how to do html some more.
Sue nobody is saying you should not make widgets. Just don’t make the mistake of making widgets is a false idol. It’s ok to make widgets and have a life too and that’s not a failure and maybe you have not been told it is, but too many have. If you want widgets and not babies, don’t marry or marry someone who doesn’t want babies. But please stop arguing every point and try to have some fun, ok? 🙂 tsk isn’t having any babies either, btw, and we are all ok with his choices. Don’t be so serious, Mkay? It’s not about you personally, really….
goFigure, thanks for your post, you pretty much answered all of my questions! It appears that we’re not in that much disagreement after all. I agree about the hard work thing — that’s been one of my main points all along. Those who work harder, deserve to get better. If more men work harder and therefore are more successful, fair enough. Let the chips fall where they may.
RPG, thanks, I think I understand better now! TSK kinda did say that women like Dame Janet Baker shouldn’t have had their career full-time, and should have had children instead, so that was one of the things that was tripping me up.
I’m in absolute agreement that someone who is not family-minded shouldn’t marry someone who is. I don’t have a problem with men wanting more family-minded women as their wives, it makes sense.
I have witnessed women who focused on child-raising and family to the exclusion of everything else, and with some of them, they suffered terribly when the nest was empty. That’s why I think what my dad did for my mom (encouraging her to pursue her talents) was so wonderful. Based on what I have seen with my parents, it’s a joy for a woman to adore her husband and look to him as the head of the household, when he is loving and generous, as my dad has been.
Okay, has the dust settled a bit now? 🙂