It’s been said that men and women can’t be “just friends.” While I am not sure it is entirely true, if there is attraction on either side that isn’t mutual it likely is true.
The guys in the manosphere have said that men rarely hang out with women they aren’t interested in. So if he’s spending time with you on a social level, or doing stuff like helping you move or fixing your car or other “boyfriend” type things, chances are he may hope that if he just hangs in there you will fall for him.
While you can’t control what other people feel, you can control your own actions. And the thing is in this case it’s in everyone’s best interests if you minimize contact with male friends you don’t have a romantic interest in.
Why? Such situations rarely end well. More often there are feelings of hurt, rejection, and even anger on his side, as well as feelings of confusion on yours when the friendship implodes when the interested party has finally had enough. Often, things get ugly, rumors get spread, and reputations are tarnished.
In the manosphere such a dynamic is called a “beta orbiter.” And depending on one’s point of view, he puts himself in that position, or she does, or perhaps both. A beta orbiter is a guy waiting in the wings, hoping he will get a chance to win your heart. Often that desire is not communicated or expressed, so much so that a gal could take it at face value and truly think it’s “just friends” when he really is hoping it will be more.
I have unwittingly been in this situation more than once, and always regret that I did not recognize what was happening sooner, before feelings were hurt or people felt taken advantage of.
Even worse is when women work these dynamics on purpose, knowing that she is manipulating him. Just don’t. Totally not ok. Ever.
It’s not always the case that men and women can’t be friends, but often it is. Do everyone a favor and avoid getting into this sticky situation and unintentionally (or intentionally) hurting others.
Have you ever been a beta orbiter? Have you ever had a beta orbiter? What happened? Please share in the comments.
Copying over my comment from Spawny’s:
It seems to be much easier if each person is in some type of relationship. Of my friends, Seamus is “mine”, and P is gay.
C, K, R, and T are in 5-7 year marriages.
M is a very dedicated careerist who admits to having 0 interest in having any relationship, and D is in a 22 year marriage.
J simply says he’d like a wife eventually, but he’s not actively looking.
If there’s no real desire for anything to go on between the man and woman, then a friendship can form. If one of the two is pining for the attentions of the other…Nope.
thats why u gotta polarize early to avoid the friendzone. then its either all or nothing.
I don’t think that it always starts off as wanting to get involved. But it can evolve it to that.
That happened to me several years ago. And instead of orbiting, I actively tried to push her away. But once you get close with someone, I am not sure if it can ever end without pain.
Wrote some about it here:
aboupamela.wordpress.com
And I will agree that it is very hard to just be friends. Even harder in certain professions where you have to depend on one another for safety.
I wrote a post about this topic back in 2013:
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/friend-zoning-a-view-from-both-sides/
The conversations in the comments were…interesting. Specifically, the fact that one commenter, EK, thought that in my hypothetical example it was a given that the female would *necessarily* put far less into the friendship than the male one. I got the distinct impression that he’s the sort who keeps close tabs on his friendships.
Aboutpamela.wordpress.com
I don’t think that it always starts off as wanting to get involved. But it can evolve it to that.
Especially if one is demisexual, where they can appreciate people as being physically/sexually attractive, but will *only* want to have sex with someone they become emotionally close to. It’s weird, because at the start of all my (male) friendships, I wasn’t any more attracted to them than a random guy on the street. But after years of gaming and hanging out together, I see all of them as above average attractive.
Your last sentence (sorry, can’t seem to copy on my phone), is where things can get really messy if any kind of feelz become involved.
It is the exact kind of thing you see in police work, and why so many cops end up divorced and then get with coworkers. And then more drama…
Who ARE you people?
Drip-feeding your emotions in case your head spins with Too Much Feeling.
Pitying the man who prefers friendship with good women to intimacy with slatterns.
Having so little communion with your partner
that you can’t tell instantly and surely if affections are straying.
What is wrong with you?
Really good linked post. The only thing I’d add, is about the being clear in wanting a relationship so soon. Wrong timing, and it can look like being desperate.
I had a guy friend in college who friend zoned himself. We started off as classmates. Then he offered to give me rides home, then rides to and from other places. Then he’d offer to take me out to and to the movies. This goes on for a couple months, and then he tells me that he has feelings.
There was no physical attraction, so I told him I thought of him as more like a brother. Then I told him I understood if he didn’t talk to me or want to hang out anymore. But he insisted on continuing to give me rides. I let him for a few more times, but the guilt and awkwardness of it all never went away, so I kinda had to put effort into putting an end to him being a beta orbiter.
Eventually, I started dating someone else, and he found someone else to orbit, but he’d periodically confess that he still missed hanging out with me. It was definitely one of the more strange friendships I’ve had.
Couple of months? And do you really wonder why he had fallen for you?
Because you can’t show all of your crazy in one go!
Rejection sucks, and portioning out feeling helps ( or people believe it does) to keep from getting more than necessary.
Who made the friendship vs slatterns comment?
I don’t remember whether or not he told me why, but I assume he found me attractive and nice, and since I actually did hang out with him unlike most girls our age at the time, he felt comfortable enough to think he might have a chance.
Ash,
Did you reciprocate the rides and movie going? Or at least make some effort to pay him back immediately for gas, popcorn, tickets, etc to show you weren’t taking advantage?
I was more focusing on how long you let it go, and not on your very obvious hotness level.
Moi,
Well I do have “feelings” of friendship and care for them as individuals. But I am not ruled by my attractions, and neither are they. I agree that if any of them + myself were in a sexually dead relationship there would be temptation. Luckily this is not the case.
If I had taken a girl to a movie, and later on she offered to take me to a movie, I would believe that she was interested in me.
Reciprocating =\= not interested.
A new post at Spawny’s there is
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/08/13/faust/
Even if she said “Hey, it was very kind of you to do that for me, but I always make sure to pay my friends back”, or something of that ilk?
In other words, making it clear that she doesn’t see you as a romantic prospect at that time.
Maybe. Maybe not. Communication is always more than just the words. Tone. Body language. Proximity. Alcohol! lol.
Thomas Rett covers it in the T-Shirt song. “You say no way, then move in closer”. 🙂
Same two people. Same exact words. Change one action, proximity, tone, etc, and it can be taken much differently.
Here’s one I was personally subjected to.
“I am going to make it up to you, and you’d better be ready”.
WTF does that mean? Does the tone matter? Prior or post conversation matter? Is she just going to hand me a $20, or take me out to lunch?
What if the prior conversation included
“I got to do everything I was going to do today, except you”.
Really? I still have no idea WTF that really meant. But knowing that persons history…
Then what is the point of being blunt and direct if the other person can just say you…idk…flipped your hair over your right shoulder while standing with a slight forward tilt to your hips? I think it is weird to complain that females never engage in direct communication, but then when they do, a guy can just decide she was still interested in him because she moved her hair away from her face.
Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar, and sometimes body “language” really is just a normal movement that has nothing to do with mate selection.
gosh. so many things get complicated here. i like the *idea* of male friends, but i keep that circle of friendship at at distance and always include my husband.
there are two men over the years with whom i became *friends* … but it could never be defined as anything close to having a female friend … we never hung out together or did things together, but we could communicate in limited ways on limited topics. i know i could call either if i needed help with something, and they would both do what they could … and their wives would help, too. the first guy i became friends with through his wife … he and i had some similar childhood experiences. we never ever spent time alone together, but rather we had a respect for each other, and his wife had a respect for my perspective on things with him.
the other i met after my divorce. we were both single, but he had never had kids, and i did not want anymore. i made it clear from the beginning that i would never consider dating a man without children b/c i would not take that opportunity away from him. we have both since married – actually within months of each other. we are now couple-friends. if i have any contact with him, i always include his wife.
i make it a point to never be alone with a man who is not my husband. i make it a point to include my husband in any and all communication with any man. i make it a point to mentally and emotionally put my husband between me and any other man. and i make sure to keep all male *friendships* at a certain distance from me on every level – physical, emotional, mental, etc.
Something like that?
If it was from Seamus I’d be expecting sex.
From someone I’d just met?
I’d assume it was a joke.
Someone I’d just begun dating?
I’d be slightly uncomfortable, most likely.
It depends on age. In younger ages relationships used to be “friends that might become serious later.” As people have gotten older, they get less patient with this.
classic Beta-male story
Just begun seeing. Oh, I guess I forgot to mention receiving a pic 10 minutes later of her just out of the shower and wearing nothing but a towel and a big smile.
And then 4 days later asked why “you are so in to this?”
Sigh…
Just begun seeing?
Yeah, I’d be slightly uncomfortable since I don’t take sex lightly and I’d be unsure if they were just flirting heavily or actually wanted something too early on.
The pic by itself would further increase my nervousness.
The question would make me think they were being intentionally self-deprecating to garner attention and validation.
oh, def needing validation, and really heavy flirting.
all went to crap a few days later, so
Seamus needs heavy doses of external validation too…Sadly, he’s become accustomed to mine so he’s been in a bit of a spiral because he’s not getting it from his job anymore. But he’d never act like that to get it, thankfully!
I had one friend whom I esteemed (and continue to esteem) as a brother, and I told him so early on. He had asked me to marry him. I did not feel the same way about him, but I knew his worth as a person and that he was very virtuous. We did a twenty-seven day Rosary novena, and at the end I had to tell him no. I could not feel for him in that way. But my husband and I have remained friends with him to this day, both with him and his wife, and it has been beneficial to all of us. He is a truly virtuous man and we are all working towards the same direction. However, time has shown that the decision to turn down his marriage proposal was the right thing to do. It would not have worked out between us. We ended up waiting for the person(s) who were right for each of us.
Yes, there can be male/female friendships, and they can be of great benefit to all concerned. The problem you are having is that you are defining everything in terms of one thing only, which requires no elaboration here — you know perfectly well what that is. You need to stop thinking solely in those terms and think long-term, what benefits everyone intellectually and spiritually as well as emotionally and physically. You are not taking a holistic approach here. The red pill philosophy appears to be doing untold harm in increasing cynicism, degrading healthy and good friendships that could last a lifetime, and decreasing any chances of restoring sanity to society. It’s rather alarming. I would recommend you read some articles from this page if you want to help society:
http://traditioninaction.org/Cultural/B000rpWomenMenIndex.htm#women
These articles point to some productive things we can do to improve society and get back to some semblance of “right”. Not all will appeal to everybody, I’m sure, but it’s a start and I’m sure there will be something on this page that may resonate with you.
@St. Thomas, does it ever get old, always being right and so morally superior?
redpillgirl, does it ever get old, always talking about things that are not only none of your business, but throwing barbs that show you are clearly not interested one bit in anything remotely of any use to anybody?
I read two of the posts in the site you linked to. The disappearance of men, and irresponsible fathers. I think both of them hit the mark. Especially the part about men mirroring their kids, and not the other way around.
Agreed to a point. I don’t think a guy would decide that JUST because she moved her hair away from her face. There always is the rest of the story.
We have to keep in mind that “We don’t see things as they are. We see things as WE are”.
What might be a very overt signal of interest to you, I might not even notice as having a meaning at all.
YMMV
Exactly my point.
People can see “obvious” indicators of attraction and interest that really don’t exist.
The St.Thomas More of Self-Anointed chick knows nothing of either male or female relations, but it’s totally awesome how she generates self-congratulatory truisms (with faux-Christain sanctimony!) from her utilization of her beta boy.
I think it’s so great when someone references her single anecdote as universally true, and I almost fall over in gratitude. That’s because I’m a closet buttboy homosexual who just wishes he had more women to discuss Scripture with, when we’re not getting caught up on household cleaners, curtains, and how to maintain proper discipline on the men in our lives.
RPG, she has no idea what’s she’s talking about , notwithstanding all the superior authority of her community college and churchian education. To be fair, not everyone can go to community college, given the entrance requirements. (I don’t think your average dog could get in. Maybe your average chimp, tho.)
Its like taking direction on aerodynamics from someone driving a bubba truck. I think I’ll listen instead to someone who knows that drag increases as the square of speed. For chips and lift kits, def bubba truck guy.
“Its like taking direction on aerodynamics from someone driving a bubba truck.”
well … and not that i’ve known many who were experts in the field of aerodynamics, but i have known a few … and they definitely don’t have a reputation for wearing droopy drawers and exploiting their butt cracks 😉 … so for that reason alone … 🙂
I really wanted to fall in love with Dawn.
I don’t think that is an emotion one can force or purposefully create…
It wasn’t. 😥
That was more of an admission. I was falling for her, and I wanted to.
Falling for someone is terrifying, imo. To give a person so much power over you? To put someone else’s health, safety, comfort, and happiness above your own whenever you’re near them? To know that you’d instinctually lay down your life so their’s would continue? From an individual survival standpoint, this seems the height of idiocy. And yet we do it anyway.
It is terrifying. And feels absolutely incredible when it’s happening. I can’t even begin to describe just how great she made me feel.
It sucks when it ends. Feeling so empty, makes me wish it hurt instead.
It really does feel good, like I imagine certain drugs make people feel. You become addicted to that person. Which is why one must be very cautious and most importantly *conscious* of it happening. Neurochemistry is a large part of attraction, lust, and love yet nobody needs to be ruled by it. Be aware of what you feel and give yourself time away from that person so you retain your individuality and prevent addiction to the chemicals in your brain.
Enjoy the fall…but remember to bring a parachute just in case.
If you only knew
https://aboutdawn.wordpress.com/2016/05/29/people-noticed/
Female Platonic Relationships – a primer by Chris Rock:
This happened to me very recently. Normally as a MGTOW I’m very careful about how I deal with women. This spring though I was stressed out and being pressed on all sides and the whole orbiter thing just happened.
It did end badly the hurt feelings and small adjustments I had to make in my life afterwards, not to mention the times in the first few weeks where she just would come and camp out in my head and not leave. The lessons learned from this are likely going to stay with me till I die. Ultimately though getting this person out of my life also enabled me to focus on what was really important (Like growing my blog for instance)
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In the distant past I actually have done this mistake more than once. Things changed when I stumbled onto the pua community. And even more so when I started listening to the Tom Leykis Show and applying his Leykis 101 rules which I faithfully follow to this day. In order to avoid being an orbiter I simply stick to the 3 strikes you’re out rule. If a girl does not put out in three dates I’m out and I just move on to the next one. Simple as that. If she ain’t attracted to me as a man there’s no need to stick around.
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And the thing is in this case it’s in everyone’s best interests if you minimize contact with male friends you don’t have a romantic interest in
What happens if I (a male) choose not to minimize contact with female friends I don’t have a romantic interest in?
I pull your leg Bloom. Get well.
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