It’s been said that men and women can’t be “just friends.” While I am not sure it is entirely true, if there is attraction on either side that isn’t mutual it likely is true.
The guys in the manosphere have said that men rarely hang out with women they aren’t interested in. So if he’s spending time with you on a social level, or doing stuff like helping you move or fixing your car or other “boyfriend” type things, chances are he may hope that if he just hangs in there you will fall for him.
While you can’t control what other people feel, you can control your own actions. And the thing is in this case it’s in everyone’s best interests if you minimize contact with male friends you don’t have a romantic interest in.
Why? Such situations rarely end well. More often there are feelings of hurt, rejection, and even anger on his side, as well as feelings of confusion on yours when the friendship implodes when the interested party has finally had enough. Often, things get ugly, rumors get spread, and reputations are tarnished.
In the manosphere such a dynamic is called a “beta orbiter.” And depending on one’s point of view, he puts himself in that position, or she does, or perhaps both. A beta orbiter is a guy waiting in the wings, hoping he will get a chance to win your heart. Often that desire is not communicated or expressed, so much so that a gal could take it at face value and truly think it’s “just friends” when he really is hoping it will be more.
I have unwittingly been in this situation more than once, and always regret that I did not recognize what was happening sooner, before feelings were hurt or people felt taken advantage of.
Even worse is when women work these dynamics on purpose, knowing that she is manipulating him. Just don’t. Totally not ok. Ever.
It’s not always the case that men and women can’t be friends, but often it is. Do everyone a favor and avoid getting into this sticky situation and unintentionally (or intentionally) hurting others.
Have you ever been a beta orbiter? Have you ever had a beta orbiter? What happened? Please share in the comments.
Copying over my comment from Spawny’s:
It seems to be much easier if each person is in some type of relationship. Of my friends, Seamus is “mine”, and P is gay.
C, K, R, and T are in 5-7 year marriages.
M is a very dedicated careerist who admits to having 0 interest in having any relationship, and D is in a 22 year marriage.
J simply says he’d like a wife eventually, but he’s not actively looking.
If there’s no real desire for anything to go on between the man and woman, then a friendship can form. If one of the two is pining for the attentions of the other…Nope.
thats why u gotta polarize early to avoid the friendzone. then its either all or nothing.
I don’t think that it always starts off as wanting to get involved. But it can evolve it to that.
That happened to me several years ago. And instead of orbiting, I actively tried to push her away. But once you get close with someone, I am not sure if it can ever end without pain.
Wrote some about it here:
aboupamela.wordpress.com
And I will agree that it is very hard to just be friends. Even harder in certain professions where you have to depend on one another for safety.
I wrote a post about this topic back in 2013:
https://tarnishedsophia.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/friend-zoning-a-view-from-both-sides/
The conversations in the comments were…interesting. Specifically, the fact that one commenter, EK, thought that in my hypothetical example it was a given that the female would *necessarily* put far less into the friendship than the male one. I got the distinct impression that he’s the sort who keeps close tabs on his friendships.
Aboutpamela.wordpress.com
I don’t think that it always starts off as wanting to get involved. But it can evolve it to that.
Especially if one is demisexual, where they can appreciate people as being physically/sexually attractive, but will *only* want to have sex with someone they become emotionally close to. It’s weird, because at the start of all my (male) friendships, I wasn’t any more attracted to them than a random guy on the street. But after years of gaming and hanging out together, I see all of them as above average attractive.
Your last sentence (sorry, can’t seem to copy on my phone), is where things can get really messy if any kind of feelz become involved.
It is the exact kind of thing you see in police work, and why so many cops end up divorced and then get with coworkers. And then more drama…
Who ARE you people?
Drip-feeding your emotions in case your head spins with Too Much Feeling.
Pitying the man who prefers friendship with good women to intimacy with slatterns.
Having so little communion with your partner
that you can’t tell instantly and surely if affections are straying.
What is wrong with you?
Really good linked post. The only thing I’d add, is about the being clear in wanting a relationship so soon. Wrong timing, and it can look like being desperate.
I had a guy friend in college who friend zoned himself. We started off as classmates. Then he offered to give me rides home, then rides to and from other places. Then he’d offer to take me out to and to the movies. This goes on for a couple months, and then he tells me that he has feelings.
There was no physical attraction, so I told him I thought of him as more like a brother. Then I told him I understood if he didn’t talk to me or want to hang out anymore. But he insisted on continuing to give me rides. I let him for a few more times, but the guilt and awkwardness of it all never went away, so I kinda had to put effort into putting an end to him being a beta orbiter.
Eventually, I started dating someone else, and he found someone else to orbit, but he’d periodically confess that he still missed hanging out with me. It was definitely one of the more strange friendships I’ve had.
Couple of months? And do you really wonder why he had fallen for you?
Because you can’t show all of your crazy in one go!
Rejection sucks, and portioning out feeling helps ( or people believe it does) to keep from getting more than necessary.
Who made the friendship vs slatterns comment?
I don’t remember whether or not he told me why, but I assume he found me attractive and nice, and since I actually did hang out with him unlike most girls our age at the time, he felt comfortable enough to think he might have a chance.
Ash,
Did you reciprocate the rides and movie going? Or at least make some effort to pay him back immediately for gas, popcorn, tickets, etc to show you weren’t taking advantage?
I was more focusing on how long you let it go, and not on your very obvious hotness level.
Moi,
Well I do have “feelings” of friendship and care for them as individuals. But I am not ruled by my attractions, and neither are they. I agree that if any of them + myself were in a sexually dead relationship there would be temptation. Luckily this is not the case.
If I had taken a girl to a movie, and later on she offered to take me to a movie, I would believe that she was interested in me.
Reciprocating =\= not interested.
A new post at Spawny’s there is
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/08/13/faust/
Even if she said “Hey, it was very kind of you to do that for me, but I always make sure to pay my friends back”, or something of that ilk?
In other words, making it clear that she doesn’t see you as a romantic prospect at that time.
Maybe. Maybe not. Communication is always more than just the words. Tone. Body language. Proximity. Alcohol! lol.
Thomas Rett covers it in the T-Shirt song. “You say no way, then move in closer”. 🙂
Same two people. Same exact words. Change one action, proximity, tone, etc, and it can be taken much differently.
Here’s one I was personally subjected to.
“I am going to make it up to you, and you’d better be ready”.
WTF does that mean? Does the tone matter? Prior or post conversation matter? Is she just going to hand me a $20, or take me out to lunch?
What if the prior conversation included
“I got to do everything I was going to do today, except you”.
Really? I still have no idea WTF that really meant. But knowing that persons history…
Then what is the point of being blunt and direct if the other person can just say you…idk…flipped your hair over your right shoulder while standing with a slight forward tilt to your hips? I think it is weird to complain that females never engage in direct communication, but then when they do, a guy can just decide she was still interested in him because she moved her hair away from her face.
Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar, and sometimes body “language” really is just a normal movement that has nothing to do with mate selection.
gosh. so many things get complicated here. i like the *idea* of male friends, but i keep that circle of friendship at at distance and always include my husband.
there are two men over the years with whom i became *friends* … but it could never be defined as anything close to having a female friend … we never hung out together or did things together, but we could communicate in limited ways on limited topics. i know i could call either if i needed help with something, and they would both do what they could … and their wives would help, too. the first guy i became friends with through his wife … he and i had some similar childhood experiences. we never ever spent time alone together, but rather we had a respect for each other, and his wife had a respect for my perspective on things with him.
the other i met after my divorce. we were both single, but he had never had kids, and i did not want anymore. i made it clear from the beginning that i would never consider dating a man without children b/c i would not take that opportunity away from him. we have both since married – actually within months of each other. we are now couple-friends. if i have any contact with him, i always include his wife.
i make it a point to never be alone with a man who is not my husband. i make it a point to include my husband in any and all communication with any man. i make it a point to mentally and emotionally put my husband between me and any other man. and i make sure to keep all male *friendships* at a certain distance from me on every level – physical, emotional, mental, etc.
Something like that?
If it was from Seamus I’d be expecting sex.
From someone I’d just met?
I’d assume it was a joke.
Someone I’d just begun dating?
I’d be slightly uncomfortable, most likely.
It depends on age. In younger ages relationships used to be “friends that might become serious later.” As people have gotten older, they get less patient with this.
classic Beta-male story
Just begun seeing. Oh, I guess I forgot to mention receiving a pic 10 minutes later of her just out of the shower and wearing nothing but a towel and a big smile.
And then 4 days later asked why “you are so in to this?”
Sigh…
Just begun seeing?
Yeah, I’d be slightly uncomfortable since I don’t take sex lightly and I’d be unsure if they were just flirting heavily or actually wanted something too early on.
The pic by itself would further increase my nervousness.
The question would make me think they were being intentionally self-deprecating to garner attention and validation.
oh, def needing validation, and really heavy flirting.
all went to crap a few days later, so
Seamus needs heavy doses of external validation too…Sadly, he’s become accustomed to mine so he’s been in a bit of a spiral because he’s not getting it from his job anymore. But he’d never act like that to get it, thankfully!
I had one friend whom I esteemed (and continue to esteem) as a brother, and I told him so early on. He had asked me to marry him. I did not feel the same way about him, but I knew his worth as a person and that he was very virtuous. We did a twenty-seven day Rosary novena, and at the end I had to tell him no. I could not feel for him in that way. But my husband and I have remained friends with him to this day, both with him and his wife, and it has been beneficial to all of us. He is a truly virtuous man and we are all working towards the same direction. However, time has shown that the decision to turn down his marriage proposal was the right thing to do. It would not have worked out between us. We ended up waiting for the person(s) who were right for each of us.
Yes, there can be male/female friendships, and they can be of great benefit to all concerned. The problem you are having is that you are defining everything in terms of one thing only, which requires no elaboration here — you know perfectly well what that is. You need to stop thinking solely in those terms and think long-term, what benefits everyone intellectually and spiritually as well as emotionally and physically. You are not taking a holistic approach here. The red pill philosophy appears to be doing untold harm in increasing cynicism, degrading healthy and good friendships that could last a lifetime, and decreasing any chances of restoring sanity to society. It’s rather alarming. I would recommend you read some articles from this page if you want to help society:
http://traditioninaction.org/Cultural/B000rpWomenMenIndex.htm#women
These articles point to some productive things we can do to improve society and get back to some semblance of “right”. Not all will appeal to everybody, I’m sure, but it’s a start and I’m sure there will be something on this page that may resonate with you.
@St. Thomas, does it ever get old, always being right and so morally superior?
redpillgirl, does it ever get old, always talking about things that are not only none of your business, but throwing barbs that show you are clearly not interested one bit in anything remotely of any use to anybody?
I read two of the posts in the site you linked to. The disappearance of men, and irresponsible fathers. I think both of them hit the mark. Especially the part about men mirroring their kids, and not the other way around.
Agreed to a point. I don’t think a guy would decide that JUST because she moved her hair away from her face. There always is the rest of the story.
We have to keep in mind that “We don’t see things as they are. We see things as WE are”.
What might be a very overt signal of interest to you, I might not even notice as having a meaning at all.
YMMV
Exactly my point.
People can see “obvious” indicators of attraction and interest that really don’t exist.
The St.Thomas More of Self-Anointed chick knows nothing of either male or female relations, but it’s totally awesome how she generates self-congratulatory truisms (with faux-Christain sanctimony!) from her utilization of her beta boy.
I think it’s so great when someone references her single anecdote as universally true, and I almost fall over in gratitude. That’s because I’m a closet buttboy homosexual who just wishes he had more women to discuss Scripture with, when we’re not getting caught up on household cleaners, curtains, and how to maintain proper discipline on the men in our lives.
RPG, she has no idea what’s she’s talking about , notwithstanding all the superior authority of her community college and churchian education. To be fair, not everyone can go to community college, given the entrance requirements. (I don’t think your average dog could get in. Maybe your average chimp, tho.)
Its like taking direction on aerodynamics from someone driving a bubba truck. I think I’ll listen instead to someone who knows that drag increases as the square of speed. For chips and lift kits, def bubba truck guy.
“Its like taking direction on aerodynamics from someone driving a bubba truck.”
well … and not that i’ve known many who were experts in the field of aerodynamics, but i have known a few … and they definitely don’t have a reputation for wearing droopy drawers and exploiting their butt cracks 😉 … so for that reason alone … 🙂
I really wanted to fall in love with Dawn.
I don’t think that is an emotion one can force or purposefully create…
It wasn’t. 😥
That was more of an admission. I was falling for her, and I wanted to.
Falling for someone is terrifying, imo. To give a person so much power over you? To put someone else’s health, safety, comfort, and happiness above your own whenever you’re near them? To know that you’d instinctually lay down your life so their’s would continue? From an individual survival standpoint, this seems the height of idiocy. And yet we do it anyway.
It is terrifying. And feels absolutely incredible when it’s happening. I can’t even begin to describe just how great she made me feel.
It sucks when it ends. Feeling so empty, makes me wish it hurt instead.
It really does feel good, like I imagine certain drugs make people feel. You become addicted to that person. Which is why one must be very cautious and most importantly *conscious* of it happening. Neurochemistry is a large part of attraction, lust, and love yet nobody needs to be ruled by it. Be aware of what you feel and give yourself time away from that person so you retain your individuality and prevent addiction to the chemicals in your brain.
Enjoy the fall…but remember to bring a parachute just in case.
If you only knew
https://aboutdawn.wordpress.com/2016/05/29/people-noticed/
Female Platonic Relationships – a primer by Chris Rock:
This happened to me very recently. Normally as a MGTOW I’m very careful about how I deal with women. This spring though I was stressed out and being pressed on all sides and the whole orbiter thing just happened.
It did end badly the hurt feelings and small adjustments I had to make in my life afterwards, not to mention the times in the first few weeks where she just would come and camp out in my head and not leave. The lessons learned from this are likely going to stay with me till I die. Ultimately though getting this person out of my life also enabled me to focus on what was really important (Like growing my blog for instance)
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In the distant past I actually have done this mistake more than once. Things changed when I stumbled onto the pua community. And even more so when I started listening to the Tom Leykis Show and applying his Leykis 101 rules which I faithfully follow to this day. In order to avoid being an orbiter I simply stick to the 3 strikes you’re out rule. If a girl does not put out in three dates I’m out and I just move on to the next one. Simple as that. If she ain’t attracted to me as a man there’s no need to stick around.
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And the thing is in this case it’s in everyone’s best interests if you minimize contact with male friends you don’t have a romantic interest in
What happens if I (a male) choose not to minimize contact with female friends I don’t have a romantic interest in?
I pull your leg Bloom. Get well.
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The simple answer to this is to COCKBLOCK opposite sex acquaintances. Put them squarely into the friend zone. Make them realize you have zero interest in them. If they don’t get it, be more direct. If you are attractive and/or you work or socialize with an abundance of the opposite gender, you need to do this quite often.
Example 1:
Jane: “So, sounds like you enjoy your work. Are you from here?”
Tom: “Actually I’m from out west, but MY GIRLFRIEND is born and raised in the state.”
(a week later, when Jane obviously did not take a soft hint)
Jane: “Sooo, I am really wondering about guys anymore. Dating sucks. Have you and your girlfriend been together awhile? Are you guys committed?”
Tom: “*Why are you asking me* this? How did you get past security and into my office?” smile, but obviously not joking (always a great one to freeze them in their tracks)
Example 2:
Tim: “Hey, nice to see you again. It is cool that a girl likes being in this camping group.”
Amy: “Yep, I camped a lot growing up. I went out with a guy last week who camps… hoping to hook up with him again soon.”
(a week later, on Fakebook, when Tim feebly tries again)
Tim: “Heeey, so I ended up with an extra ticket to a cool concert on Saturday since my buddy backed out. I don’t want it to go to waste. Are you interested?”
Amy: “I don’t know. Who is going… and what band’s playing?”
Tim: “It’s Halestorm… and I have two tickets.” (he probably doesn’t even have them purchased yet)
Amy: “I like that band, but *why are you choosing to invite me* and not a guy buddy?”
Tim: [“I just thought it would be fun” or other random dumb nonsense to avoid saying date is being offered]
Amy: “I appreciate the offer, but I will probably try to leave that night open for a date or a girls’ night. Take care.
…The “why are you telling/asking/inviting me this.” Is typically a good road block. That can be used if the soft speed bump of mentioning a boy/girlfriend, husband/wife, or your dating life doesn’t give them the clear relationship boundary that they are not of sexual interest to you. It can be a stepwise process:
-softly cockblock by mentioning a partner or recent date or hopeful date
-do that again
-use “why are you inviting/telling/asking me this?” when they mention relationship or isolating etc that you see no need for
-enlist your partner to be present or even have a chat with them (this is almost never necessary for female orbiters… very seldom for males unless the guy orbiter has a HUGE and long term target lock on the woman, usually orbiting her for months/years before she got into current main relationship)
Basically, you will never go wrong promoting your partnership (whether new, old, serious, casual, open, committed, etc) to drive away potential orbiters. However, this also works for single people. You just make it reasonably clear that you are already getting and/or interested in much better dick or puss than they offer. They need to know early and often that acquaintance is available, dating is not (male-female friendship doesn’t exist – outside of maybe biologic family members or 40+ year age differences).
You will NEVER, ever go wrong with promoting your relationship/partner/single enjoyment status. If I meet someone at work/bar/social/etc and I mention that I have a car and really like my car, it has ZERO bearing on that relationship… unless they are trying to sell me a car! If a car salesman/saleswoman wants to keep talking to me again and again after I tell them that I’m excited with my car, then they deserve what they get (likely increasing levels of one word answers, cool body language, or clear repeats of “I’m not interested).
They will get the message pretty fast if you communicate well and play your cards right. If the potential orbiter is stupid enough to believe in male-female platonic friendships existing (they might if it is their beta sexual strategy), then you can simply tell them that you have seen that get “other people” into trouble in the past with one-sided crushes, love, etc… and affairs or primary relationship dissatisfaction. Use research in social science as necessary:
Orbiters are the most beta of the sexual game players. Their online or social circle dating gets them zero results from the types they want. They know that asking directly for a date or physical love, etc would be met with rejection from the types they desire. They choose to wear a “friends” mask to stay in the orbit of targets (usually many), and foolishly hope that their charm will wear down a target and that they can win the battle of long term attrition by catching a target when he or she is vulnerable due to intoxication, lonely, low self esteem, etc etc… usually after a breakup of target’s main relationship. It is very sad and seldom works, and it is coercive as hell… yet it is STILL a sexual and seduction mating strategy.
…at the end of the day, for people who don’t want to waste time with orbiters and don’t appreciate their serious relationship partners encouraging (or not discouraging) orbiters, it is not a “be a strong person” thing… or a “jealousy” thing… or a “being secure” thing… or a “that kind of woman” thing… or a “every friendship is different thing.” It is simply that there are hormones involved. End of story. A man is biologically programmed to respond to attractive, healthy, and fertile women, especially in close proximity. Women similarly respond to socially dominant and healthy, physically attractive men (although this can be more variable in its nature due to ovulation cycle phase and her needs at the time). Basically, men always take a short term mating strategy, while women may take a medium term, sometimes short term one.
The very interesting thing is that even many OLTR and swinger couples and even marriages which are extremely comfortable with FBs and group sex will still FLIP OUT about creating emotional connections and private opposite sex “date” type intimacy outside the primary partnership. [wait, Steph, did you just say the wife allows husband to get blowjobs but not send a birthday card or do bi-weekly lunch with a co-worker??? Yes, that is exactly what I said.] If anything violates their core understanding and agreement with the primary partner, it should be no surprise. The emotional intimacy is the sacred factor in any long term partnership.
I feel that men need to share their concern with women if her orbiters bother them, and women should do the same for any of his “friends” isolating or being isolated with him. The studies show the orbiter “friendships” hurt a primary relationship, so any self respecting partner should be perfectly ok with communicating well and “rocking the boat” about something they find disrespectful – either before commitment or soon afterward.
If you have a mature and sex/dating experienced partner, then they will likely gradually push away orbiters in the first few months of dating to focus on someone they respect and enjoy anyways. I have had girls literally change their phone numbers and facebook last name to middle name after a few months of dating me since they had so many orbiters, lol.
If a girl farms orbiters (invites them, makes attention grab facebook posts, etc), then she is not even worth being a FB to me. If a girl chooses to keep orbiters “on the sly” in private text or FB msgs or meeting up when I’m away… or insist there is nothing wrong with opposite sex friendships and isolation, they are nothing more than a casual FB option (never monog, OLTR, or MLTR material… but JMO). Some people get it, some don’t (usually younger people don’t get it… again, see the studies on cross-sex friendships).
To fail to understand that we are just highly conscious animals is to fail socially. To underestimate sexuality is to invite coercion and potentially uncomfortable antics down the line (from either or both the orbiter and your primary partner). You must accept who and what simple human creatures you are to achieve the ubermensch. Plain and simple.
Sorry, the link to the study is this one (not Chris Rock, lol):
Basic take home points from cross-sex friends study:
-Male “friends” were more attracted to females than females attracted to male
-Male “friends” OVERestimate female’s attraction while females UNDERestimat male’s
-Both male and female “friends” generally say it hurts their primary relationship and partner doesn’t like it
-Middle aged and older “friends” were more likely and adolescent/college “friends” to report their “friendship” as being damaging to their primary relationship (hence why adolescent/college relationships are often more short-lived and drama-filled than adult ones?)
…and since social science is obviously highly subjective, so also consider this:
How many guys want to rate their attraction level to a female “friend” high on the 1-10 scale??? Even though this study assures them that she will never see his original results, they are embarrassed as hell to be wearing a “friend” mask when they have a crush. But all that aside, results are still results.
Good luck and happy New year to all. Hopefully this can enlighten some people who kid themselves, their “friend,” or their partner by insisting platonic friendships exist after puberty has occured. It’s time to get real 🙂