One thing I have learned from the red pill, is that men and women’s attraction triggers work in very different ways.
As far as I understand, it seems men’s attraction triggers are largely based on her physical appearance, an almost instant judgement of sorts. It’s a yes or a no, end of story.
Women on the other hand seem to have a multi-faceted attraction screen. A guy can be very physically attractive, but still strike out with the ladies for other factors such as personality, status, philosophy, etc. A guy who is physically less attractive can do well with women depending on other factors such as personality, status, likability, and so on.
Now of course there are those situations where women fall for the photo of a felon thug who is in all ways obviously not a good candidate for a long term partner, after all he is in prison!?!?! But that I suppose is an entirely other phenomenon…
From what I can tell, men and women often have different perceptions of what female beauty is or is not. And it is difficult as a woman for me to understand how personality flaws (bitchiness, shallowness, cattiness) could be overlooked, while the gal with the heart of gold who doesn’t have the physical package doesn’t stand much chance. But it does seem, from what the men say, to be the case.
So what is beauty? Is it as defined by Playboy magazine, for example? A very manicured, very unnatural, very high maintenance (although in its own way undeniably attractive) look? Does artifice attract men?
Consider the “Shannon Twins,” onetime girlfriends of Hugh Hefner who arrived at the mansion at the age of 18. Do they look better in their natural state, or after they have surgically altered themselves with nose jobs, breast implants, and butt implants?
Before:
After:
I think they look better before, but again I am not a guy.
And perhaps it’s been said that men have a broader range for attraction than women do, or more diversity so to speak. So while the gals above may flip one guys triggers, they might leave another cold?
The two admit now that they had the surgeries because being surrounded by so many beautiful women all the time fed their insecurities to the point they believed themselves unattractive in comparison in a sea of “10’s.” And at a certain point it seems one would be splitting hairs trying to pick out the “most attractive” woman in a flood of beauties.
What is beauty? Is there an ideal? And if so, what is it? Feel free to discuss your thoughts in the comments, and remember what one person holds as their truth may not be so for another, so please respect everyone’s differing points of view.
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
Kardashians impressive they are not
I have wondered about them too Yoda, I wonder if their fan base is largely female, or male?
I think the original version looks better than post enhancements. But I’m not particularly attracted to either version.
I tried watching the Kardashians once and couldn’t take the shallowness and pretense for 10 minutes before I turned it off. So I guess I don’t get the appeal? Some may be physically beautiful but the minute they started talking I thought, “ug!!!”
What actress or model would you consider your ideal beauty Moi? Or if not a specific one, what is your “type?”
I’m not in to the size 0 models that everyone seems to like. I like a bit more curve on a woman. But even that varies, depending on the woman. I could give you two examples of “the one”, but they are different from each other physically.
Sometimes it is about the entire package.
I get what you are saying Moi. I know gorls who just look “right” a little on the curvy side, or the curves are in the right places and on others added weight can be a real hit to their attractiveness. Basically if a gal is an hourglass that works, but if she gains in the midsection not so much.
It seems a lot of women who get upset at guys being primarily visual in attraction tend to project how women size up attraction onto the male model (he should consider personality, inner beauty, career, etc.) rather than realize the two are totally different.
A nerve hit you did. (is that how this works???)
I had a friend who is what most would consider an easy 8.5, and maybe a bit higher. When we first met I did of course notice that she looked good, but I wasn’t interested in anything. We became very close, and it wasn’t because she was a hot blonde, but because of who she is inside. The real attraction was personality, inner beauty, career, intelligence, caring. That’s who I fell in love with.
Guys do see those traits. When we are younger we may mostly see the physical part, but we fall in love with the person inside. At least I did with her.
As for gains in the midsection not so much, even that can vary depending on the woman. With another young lady, I’ve seen pics when she was closing in on size 0, and it did nothing for me. When I started to fall for her she had a tiny bit of a roll, but the whole presentation was extraordinary. IMHO even the first one couldn’t compare to her physically. Now I know a lot of people probably wouldn’t agree with my evaluation of her, but she pushes every one of my buttons.
I’d show you pics so you could see what I mean, but not in the open.
I think that it was Deti who observed that while men have a very wide scope of what they find attractive, women have a narrow scope. It is nice when those two coincide.
True Fuzzie women do have a more narrow scope of what they consider “the ideal” male form, but often times the best looking women don’t go for the best looking men but some collection of status, wealth, personality, etc. Many beautiful women barter looks for provision/protection, which seems to be the case in the Hugh Hefner (today anyway w the 60 year age gaps) version… or maybe he truly is that charismatic and good looking yet but I would say he’s far from the female “physical ideal” at this point ? Hard to say…
As described here:
And personally I can’t think of a more nightmare scenario for a gal to deal with than being one of Hugh Hefner’s many girlfriends but maybe that’s because it would require buying into the herd mentality that achieving that is the ultimate? No matter what the drama, angst, personal cost? Holly Madison, his longtime girlfriend, has written a lot about that. Personally I would find that environment soul crushing
IN many ways this poly model is hypergamy unleashed. It’s great when one is the top girl, but when the rotation changes it is a hell of a fall…and in a world filled with new 18 year olds throwing themselves at him all the time, the most physically fit and attractive women in the world, the fall is simply a matter of time…
For example, in this line up, how does one choose “prettiest?”:
http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/photo/6251256.cms
(Holly is first on his right.)
By turning around. None of them are particularly attractive.
I would agree Moi, perhaps it is a certain “look” but doesn’t appeal to all. I personally cannot imagine how much time, energy, and money it must take to maintain that look. One would have to be in the salon for hours every day! Ug. No thanks!
He says he provides the girlfriends with unlimited access to spa treatments and cosmetic surgery, so I suppose that makes it more possible? On their own these girls likely could not even afford what it costs to maintain that look.
Lotta work to look that unattractive.
RPG,
Don’t forget that men think in boxes. All of the women in the pictures you have shared would fit in my ‘bangable box’, if I had one. Not a single one of them would fit in my relationship box, under any condition.
For me I would suggest that looks get you into a noticed box. Personality determines the rest.
Someone I have always thought was perhaps the most beautiful woman of our times is Paulina Porizkova. She has aged well, and has been married (apparently happily by all appearances) for a long time:
Goo point Go Figure, I would think the Kardashin personality would get wearing in short order…
All of them??? I can’t drink that much!
“I think the original version looks better than post enhancements. But I’m not particularly attracted to either version.”
100% agree.
For example, in this line up, how does one choose “prettiest?”
http://photogallery.indiatimes.com/photo/6251256.cms
Each man would have his own way of doing it.
Paulina could have married the most attractive man alive most likely but instead she choose:
He’d almost qualify as a “lone wolf” in manosphere terms, the guy who has a hottie 10+ on his arm snuggling up to him and everyone is wondering, “Huh? How did THAT happen?”
I would think the Kardashin personality would get wearing in short order…
They are not attractive to start with and when you add in the personality…. it not pretty.
Those are the type of women that I would describe as “if she was the last woman alive, i would choose to be celibate”.
From the little i know about Kim Kardashian she became a celeb by piggybacking off her then “friend” Paris Hilton, who treated her like dirt. But she learned how to be a celebrity despite not being one from Paris apparently? In my eyes she is better looking than Paris, not that that says all that much… But Paris would be her “alpha” mare.
That is so true GoFigure, every woman’s looks will fade. If there is no “there there” behind it, well…
This is the best that I have found, a breakdown of what women find attractive in men.
https://donalgraeme.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/going-ape-what-attributes-do-women-find-attractive-in-men-looks-athleticism-money-power-and-status-lamps/
It is good that different men don’t find all the same things attractive in women. Competition is fierce enough as it is.
I don’t like hugh Hefner’s girlfiends either.
If I was single right now talking to a some guy friends this is the women I would crush one: Xania Deli
http://www.thehivemanagement.co.uk/ImageGen.ashx?image=/media/14911/19_THEHIVE_MODELS_XENIA%20DELI_BOOK.jpg&width=797&constrain=true
Not a one of them is really attractive.
She’s kinda cute. But not above an 8.0 to me.
Moi I deleted your comment. Probably better to email stuff like that to my email listed under my contact page than to post in public, then leave a note that you emailed in comments and I will look (I don’t check that email regular otherwise.) I’d hate for your lady friends to get contacted or such…
She’s ok. But I think the chick in the center of this pic is a lot more attractive.
I only saw Home and About. No Contact page.
Yoda;
Darth-Kardashian proper name it is. May the Farts be with you
Another example of the female perception of female beauty vs. the male one would be Sarah Jessica Parker who is consistently rated as “attractive” by women but not by men:
Oh I think it is at the bottom of the about page, sorry!
I think most men find the Kardashian hot, but are turned off because they are shallow and also they don’t like how they take full advantage of their hotness and basically use it for personal and financial gain.
I think the photo of the girls look better in the before photo as well. In the second photo, they have too much makeup going on which ages women. Also, unflattering bleached hair.
Physically speaking, I think men go for body before face. A woman can have an average face and a good body, and he’ll still consider her hot. Women seem to go more for a nice looking face in men. At least in my opinion, he can have a nice body, but if his face is busted, he won’t turn my head. This sucks for men, because they don’t really do a whole lot about their facial features outside of surgery. But if he has a positive attitude and otherwise pleasant personality, he could be redeemed in termed of overall attractiveness.
Moi it is nice to see a guy say so about a gal I would say is more representative of reality than fantasy. Yes she is very attractive, but also “real” if that makes sense?
I’m not so sure on the body before face thing. Maybe for a ONS, but not necessarily anything beyond that.
An exception I can think of right away, is with some of the women I saw in Iceland. Even the heavier women had really beautiful faces, and we’re just hot overall. Again it might be more because of what they presented as a total package.
SJP is not at all attractive. Yeah her body is in good shape, but I just don’t see anything appealing about her.
YMMV
Best looking by decade
70’s Lindsay Wagner
80’s Dana Delany
90’s Charlize Theron
Interresting Ash, yes I do think it is still taboo in our culture for a woman to too openly work her assets. Mostly other women will gang up, not men. But sometimes men also feel uncomfortable with a woman who is aware of and openly working her “assets” in a way that all women probably manipulate but not as obviously as the Kardashians. It’s somewhat a game of denial…
I agree re they look better before. Sad to me how much they altered themselves to only become in many ways less attractive…
I have seen the “buttaface” phenomenon with men too, but I have also seen the reverse where in a long term relationship a “6” will win over a “9” because she has a better personality is is lower maintenance, etc.
Interesting picks Yoda, they seem very different! But each beautiful in her own way and right.
Which maybe even goes to show that the same guy can consider many “types” as beautiful….
Yes it makes a lot of sense. And SY doesn’t have to take almost everything off to look attractive, which I don’t think can be said as readily about PP.
Want to know how to figure out if a girl is really attractive, and it’s not just because she’s wearing almost nothing?
Put her in a nice set of jeans, and a white tee shirt or tank top. If she makes you want to cuddle her in the bed of your pickup truck and watch the sunset, she’s hot.
In the before picture, yes they were very hot. In the after picture, they look like whores the Joker or other clowns would pump and dump.
I would agree George liquor American. The more they did the less unique they became. I didn’t post the new kid pics but they in their natural state were pretty darn impressive!
Those who are curious can google or search “girls next door season 5 episode 10”
Not all guys find the Kardashian hot. What some may be attracted to is the ‘message’ of being DTF, even if it is an inaccurate message.
So not hot, but bangable.
Interesting Ash, yes I do think it is still taboo in our culture for a woman to too openly work her assets. Mostly other women will gang up, not men. But sometimes men also feel uncomfortable with a woman who is aware of and openly working her “assets” in a way that all women probably manipulate but not as obviously as the Kardashians.
Women compete with other women for attention, so they are very much aware of how much they can get away with in a given situation and will ‘gang up’ if they are being disadvantaged. I think women work their assets for other women. They might catch a man along the way, but I don’t hear men talk positively about women working their assets.
With all the time you have spent around red pill sites, I can not believe you don’t know how men think about this.
Which maybe even goes to show that the same guy can consider many “types” as beautiful….
Yes, absolutely!
I would find the Kardashian experience impossible to … Uh … execute.
Once you’ve dated or married a model or Hollywood femme the mystique evaporates.
My experience is that women get way more worked up about comparing and contrasting women, and projecting their brainwashed ideals of female beauty onto ‘superficial’ men.
Playboy eliminated nudity because guys just shrug these days at another tableaux of boobies. That is, they’re naked, but that doesn’t make them beautiful.
I told the story before. I was at a Hollywood party. An actress who’s won an Oscar walked up to my girlfriend and said, “Everyone says you’re so beautiful. But I don’t see it.”. Men don’t think in these terms about beauty.
I think men care about the face more than the body.
I can’t tell you how many times I have heard men talk about a super hot girl they were watching at a concert or ball game etc. and then they get a chance to see her face and all interest disappeared.
Can a rocking body over come a bland face, sure. But the man knows exactly the trade off he is making.
@ gofigure that’s an excellent example of how even when a woman “wants”to get it, we are still mostly speaking different languages…
To be sentimental for a moment, beauty for me is (after the first few months have elapsed) simply seeing ones girl across the table at dinner, or picking her up at the airport, and realizing, ‘Yep. This is all I want.’. Its a melange of looks, fitness, style, kindness, brains and sensuousness (in my case). To each his own.
We see in this thread some female opinions that there is a uniform male idea of female attractiveness. I think that’s a dead end.
An entirely new angle to this discussion is to note how radically a woman’s face changes when she’s happy, in love and carefree. In a flash a 7 is a 9. And, woe, things can work in the other direction, too.
Shakespeare in his love poems didn’t bother with a set of measureables, did he.
The Shannon twins look like Las Vegas escorts, to me. Heck they probably are now.
^^^ THIS ^^^
They really don’t understand how we see them. What we think makes them beautiful to us. And how it can be so different from one woman to the next.
There was one woman at my last job who was model hot. Almost every guy was sniffing at it trying to hook up. She was even in a bunch of those NPC competitions, that’s how much in shape she was. I wasn’t interested at all.
The one I was interested would have never been allowed to enter in to the competition, let alone make it to the top 10. But she is a hard 8.7…
On the Richter Scale to me. I could go on and on about why I thought she was so attractive. But I’ll just refer you back to the tee shirt and the back of the pickup truck comment I posted previously.
RPG said this about the Kardashians
I have wondered about them too Yoda, I wonder if their fan base is largely female, or male?
Its female, when was the last time you heard a man talking about them as anything but a circus side show? How many men watch their show? I bet the number is low. Women love them because women think; there is an average looking women that goes all out for sex appeal and flaunts everything. If she can be cool and sexy then I can too. Go giiiiirrrrrllll power!
@RPG: Can’t find an email addy.
@ BuenaVista: Vegas Escorts? Seriously bro, they are trashy ghetto whores with all that caked on fake-up and bleached blonde hair. I wouldn’t be surprised if they shaved their heads and are wearing wigs.
on second thought, maybe we’re saying the same thing in a round about way.
I think the defining factor (or one) is effort. Does she take care of herself, try to look good and in doing so make a man proud to have her by his side? A girl who is bumming it may be more approachable but a refined woman a guy knows his game has to be on. I know that if I Don’t want attention from men, dress to the 9’s. Very few men have the balls to approach. But if I dress down, good lord, anyone thinks they can talk to me. It’s an oxymoron but it’s true.
BTW, my divorce got finalized yesterday and thanks for the good advice. I have not jumped on the cock carousel and have been abstinent and working on me for many long months now. I’m glad I found this site.
this topic always fascinates me … mens vs womens view of beauty … what goes into that, what doesn’t.
women compete with women for everything. women manipulate other women with competition. and women are often just flat-out mean to each other. want to know the flaws on a woman? ask another woman – she can pick them out blindfolded. sad. we should be encouraging one another rather than competing with one another.
my husband has said over and over and over that i’m beautiful … then he’ll add that my heart is beautiful, too – it’s like it’s good and necessary that he finds me physically attractive, but the outside is made or broken by the inside, the ‘who’ of who i am, the ‘essence’ of who i am. one of my fav things to do is to show up unexpectedly at his place of work on a day when i feel and look great – i get to show off me for him, and he loves that 🙂
interesting, though … we were watching something the other night, and he pointed to this woman and said he thought she was attractive. i’ve been married to the man for seven years and wouldn’t have picked this woman as one he’d find attractive. i found that very intriguing.
i like what BV said, “simply seeing ones girl across the table at dinner, or picking her up at the airport, and realizing, ‘Yep. This is all I want.’.”
when my husband walks in the door from work, and i turn around and smile at him and welcome him home … that’s the look he has on his face: “Yep. This is all I want.” i love providing that for him.
and it works both ways 🙂
i think there’s something to be said for the, “It” Factor. if “It” could be more clearly defined across the board, it probably wouldn’t simply be called, “It.”
Marriage vows. Said as an act of commitment to the other and to God.
Think about it. Why the need for vows and commitment?
For me, and I’m sure for others, there isn’t just one “look” or one “type”. Rather, there is a range. I’m a sucker for a certain range of body-type looks. I’m also a sucker for kindness and the tender touch. Those triggers don’t always come in the same package.
My “awakening” re. commitment came in my twenties when I worked in downtown Washington, D.C. The city then, and probably still now, was a magnet for good-looking, bright young women. Over the months of walking up and down K Street and others, something began to dawn on me: I would no sooner see a girl that majorly caught my attention, than a block later I would see someone else who would make me forget about the earlier girl.
During that period of my life, reality taught me why we commit to each other in marriage vows. Because it is necessary. Physical beauty (facial or body type) can attract our attention for the moment (which is why we commit to our other to not chase every distraction that crosses our path). But life is a marathon, and a proper partner needs to be the right combination of attributes that we need to help us not just live, but thrive. Others above have laid these attributes out in detail. It is a combination of all of them. Fortunate is the man who finds the combination he needs in one woman.
Even tho they may catch my attention at times (and Hefner’s stuff doesn’t), women who need to show off in public have never gotten close to being anyone I would consider as partner material for the long haul. Maybe because I grew up around farmer’s daughters rather than city slickers. Doing farm chores in the morning before heading out to school tends to create kind, grounded girls. But you won’t find most of them (if any) but watching reality television or looking through girlie magazines. Probably won’t find many of them in bars either.
RichardP –
wisdom.
“An actress who’s won an Oscar walked up to my girlfriend and said, “Everyone says you’re so beautiful. But I don’t see it.”
Wow! That’s so mean 😦
GLA, yeah, we were.
I did go to a Halloween party once where my date dressed as a hooker. Only about half the people got it, which was weird.
Care Blanchett. She plays meanies on screen too, so I guess it comes naturally.
***
I think its healthy, in an LTR, for a woman to ask her man if he finds this or that strange woman attractive. A) she’ll learn something useful. B) he’s thinking it whether she does or not. There was a good story in the WSJ last week about admitting the existence of fantasy (both men and women) and bringing it into the monogamous LTR.
FYI, men and women diverge in a very RP way in their fantasizing, with women far morely likely to revisit prior lovers (alpha widow trope).
I’ve only known one woman secure enough to ask me about such things, though she was thrilled by my answer (I compared her figure to that of a certain young adult star), whom she now refers to as her ‘avatar.’
Aside from projecting their preferences onto men (SJP IS JUST THE PERFECT WOMAN!), or misrepresenting the male gaze and what it values (again, a projection of female preference, see comments above ), feminism has now mainstreamed the notion that women can just tell men what they should find attractive. A great example is the new Ghostbusters. Just the poster turned my stomach, much less the infamous trailers.
Its not very complicated, but for some reason no one can internalize Deti’s maxim:
Be nice
Be available
Don’t get fat
If you’re a woman and you reject Deti’s maxim, fine. But the next words out of your mouth should not be ‘where have all the good men gone?’. They’ve gone where you ain’t.
Ame…”women compete with women for everything. women manipulate other women with competition. and women are often just flat-out mean to each other”
Yet how many men have ever thought to themselves, ‘Yeah, that girl is really hot and seems nice, but those other girls don’t like her, so I guess I won’t ask her out’
DavidFoster – i wouldn’t begin to know what a man thinks 🙂
Two of the most important attractiveness triggers, imo, are a guy’s smile and scent. I usually go more for the males with a dad-bod, but have met skinny men who just smell really good and have a beautiful, genuine smile.
Skin color, hair length/color, height, shoulder width, etc are all tertiary factors. And I don’t consider things related to finances (house, car, wallet thickness, whatever) to be a part of the attraction process since you can’t tell that about a person simply by looking at them or even within first meeting them.
Sexual attraction is determined within a few minutes. Personality attraction is determined over a much longer time span.
Also, everyone has *something* beautiful about them.
Love the comments in this thread! I was just thinking that I don’t get it either… what men truly think is beautiful. My husband surprises me with letting me know sometimes that he thinks I’m most beautiful dressed down and without any makeup on… to which I’m coyly like “Would you prefer I don’t wear makeup?” He says he likes me wearing makeup, but obviously he appreciates when I don’t. ?? lol ❤
Two of the most important attractiveness triggers, imo, are a guy’s smile and scent
So probably not into a guy’s INT Death Stare you are
I think the defining factor (or one) is effort. Does she take care of herself, try to look good and in doing so make a man proud to have her by his side? A girl who is bumming it may be more approachable but a refined woman a guy knows his game has to be on. I know that if I Don’t want attention from men, dress to the 9’s. Very few men have the balls to approach. But if I dress down, good lord, anyone thinks they can talk to me. It’s an oxymoron but it’s true.
I disagree with almost all of this, but I will just comment on the if I Don’t want attention from men, dress to the 9’s. Very few men have the balls to approach. It has nothing to do with not having balls to approach. A women dressed to the 9’s is signalling ‘high maintenance’, ‘attention whore’ and if she is not with a man then she is likely a ‘physical whore’ as well.
If you dress down you become someone that might be worth approaching.
I guess you understand the results but you have no idea why you are getting those results.
Yoda,
Death stares are okay, so long as they’re not permanent etched onto the person’s face, lol. As an INTJ myself, I also have a good death stare. I am just aware of it and make sure to make it go away by consciously half-smiling in public.
Yoda,
Death stares are okay, so long as they’re not permanent etched onto the person’s face, lol. As an INTJ myself, I also have a good death stare. I am just aware of it and make sure to make it go away by consciously half-smiling in public.
I have a good idea of what Seamus finds attractive in a woman, so when we’re at a restaurant or walking through the mall, I’ll discreetly point them out.
“Hot red head in a miniskirt at your 3 o’clock.”
“Threesome candidate behind your left shoulder.” So on, so forth. It’s kinda fun.
I think that if you look hard and long enough, you’ll find something wrong with just about any woman upon whom you are gazing.
It’s all about what you like to “look at” and your state of mind when you’re looking.
But one thing you CAN’T do, lest you be completely deceived, is to use ANY celebrity as a fulcrum for launching your campaign for beauty. It’s all illusory.
And, it must be said, that while relative, even relative beauty fades quickly after a certain age. I mean…the manospheric trope about “hitting the wall” at a certain age is absofuckinglutely true.
I remember when I first saw Grace Kelly in a movie (even as a young African of unknown ancestry who had not yet – or EVER – been conditioned to believe that the eurocentric concept of beauty was the standard in the world) – I was in a daze. I had never – EVER – on TV, or in person, seen a white lady so damned pretty. And I was, and still am, a lusty fucker. If you don’t find yourself losing time looking at that woman’s face, something ain’t right about you.
When Pierre Salinger interviewed her for the last time (at 52 years old) she was still very lovely, even though she was styled like stodgy old aristocrat. Plain. Had she been as vain as many of the women that age are now, she’d have been dolled up and guys would have been talking about how “hot” she was. She was a cutie pie from the beginning till the end.
http://dosesofgrace.tumblr.com/image/115853394107
Just like Ruby Dee, cute from beginning to end..
An as an aside, that’s Ruby dolled up..she does have more than a few photos of her where she is a hot mess…whereas you’d be hard pressed to find any of Grace Kelly that wasn’t just pure loveliness all day long.
She’s one to talk. Not much attractive about her.
But “it” can’t be clearly defined. Yes one can make generalizations about liking certain physical characteristics, but it’s not set in stone. The recipe really can vary from woman to woman to get to “it”.
Gotta love Captain Capitalism. No bullshit.
This just about sums it up. Forget the rationalizations.
Thank goodness every man isnt like this…but much truth there. It’s a sad reality. We can thank the media and popular culture. Great post! Please check out my blog, i would love your feedback!