Tags
career, career woman, childbearing, college, fertility, infertility, parenting, pregnancy, red pill
The other day I was talking with a friend who is in her early 60s. She happened to mention, in passing, that her grandmother had been a doctor.
Yes, that’s right, her GRANDMOTHER had been a doctor, specializing in head injuries, no less.
Now considering my friend is a baby boomer, that means her grandmother became a doctor many, many years before feminism supposedly opened up such opportunities to women. How could that be? So naturally I asked more questions.
Interestingly, it turns out her grandmother followed the path currently advised by the red pill, she married young to a good man, had their four children young, raised them while her husband worked his career, and then once their children were grown (her early 40s) she went to college, became a doctor, and started her career. Her grandmother practiced medicine well into her 80s.
It had never occurred to my friend that what her grandmother had accomplished, becoming a female doctor, was perhaps unusual for her time until I pointed it out.
This story is a good example of how today’s thinking that women should put off marriage and children until after she establishes her education and career may not be the optimal path after all. Or that if she marries and has children young, she will “miss” her chance to have a career.
Traditionally women followed their ideal biological life path — having children in their early 20s during their prime childbearing years, then shifting gears toward career as they reached their perimenopausal and menopausal years — when they are unencumbered by children and also will not have to “pause” that career once it is underway, like a woman who aims to establish her career early in life likely will when/if she chooses to have children later in life.
I have known many women of my generation (including myself, I am in my mid-40s and have young children) who put off childbearing until the last possible biological moment because they were mislead that they had all the time in the world to have kids, but not a career.
I was lucky to concieve both times easily and quickly despite my advanced age. Two of three dear friends heartbreakingly never conceived despite expensive ($10,000+) infertility treatments. A third did finally succeed (happily!) after many tens of thousands of dollars and multiple attempts and is now finding just how difficult it is in reality to maintain a demanding career with an infant. Yet she’s afraid to take time off, lose her connections, and then be unable to restart her career later. A fourth friend didn’t start thinking of marriage and kids until she was in her mid 30s. She has yet to find a mate and at 45, children are now unlikely.
Sadly, these women followed the supposedly new and improved life script, only to find out it has some drawbacks they had never been advised of. No path is perfect. All paths involve possible trade offs. And they always have. And they always will.
It’s something young women of today would be wise to ponder. Does the path recommended to women today really make the most sense based on what she wants in life?
Perhaps the path my babysitter has chosen (to get her degree, have kids, then pursue her career with some additional refresher training when her children are older, then pursue her career in earnest for the second half of her life) lines up more naturally with a woman’s seasons of life?
The thing about life paths is there often aren’t do-overs later when one regrets the path chosen or is unhappy with the trade-offs. So best to figure it out early, and be sure you have thought things through. Both paths involve risk and uncertainty, is one path riskier and less certain?
Discuss. Deliberate. Ponder.
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
What may have haelped your friend’s grandmother would have been the timing in pursuing colege. If she attended in the forties, she went when all the young men were at war. Also, the need for doctors then would have been acute.
These timing issues are made much worse by today’s excessive credentialism and especially the belief by many that they must have postgraduate education, as well as a college degree, to be employable. 4 years college often turns into 5, then 2 or 3 years to get that masters degree–maybe a year off in the middle because she just can’t stand it anymore…one can easily be 27 before getting off of the educational conveyor belt…even without pursuing a PhD
reminded me of my first husband’s late grandmother who was close to 100 when she died many years ago. she had a master’s degree, played college women’s sports, and married a teacher. she was a bitchy woman (she and i locked horns a few times). she was the kind of woman who, the more you did for her, the more bitchy she became. i stopped doing things for her, and she started being nice to me.
her husband died the first year we were married after a long illness, so i never knew him, but it was told he was a gentle and kind man.
from all i’ve learned, he was probably definitely a beta … soft, gentle, kind … married an aggressive, feisty, bitchy woman who was never happy with him or anyone or anything else.
knowing what i know now, i’d love to go back and talk to her … ask her questions … how they met, what attracted her to him, how the opportunities were presented to her to get a bachelor’s and then a master’s and to play college sports as a woman in her generation. was she counter-cultural? what did her parents/family think of her decisions? what was the culture in her world telling her to do or not to do as a woman, and how did she respond to that.
did a couple generations or so back of women really know what they were doing?
A new post at Spawny’s there is
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/09/30/she-has-to-have-it/
Relevant to this thread this would be
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2015/06/03/career-first-baby-later/
It’s definitely something women should ponder. In my early 20s, my ambitions were about modeling and beauty pageants. It might sound silly to some of you and you might be giggling right now (that’s ok, I am too), but it’s who I was at the time. My body had to be in good shape for modeling and there are rules in pageants about not being married or ever have had a baby. That was fine for me because marriage and babies were the last thing on my mind at the time. But it IS something I took time to ponder, and I am glad for that. It’s important to really be aware and at least try to think about the timeline of how you want your life to be. I am happy about the choices I made in my path in life.
A woman does have to make a living until she finds the right man. This means development of a path we’re you can afford to maintain a feminine lifestyle.. Hair, nails, clothing, cosmetics, tanning, medical care, etc. A 10 an hour job isn’t going to covet that plus rent and everything else.
It’s a catch 22.
So many men just are not ready to marry, think about kids or provide in their 20s. Or early 30s. The equation is ideal but it just doesn’t balance in real life unless the stars align. Good luck with that.
Everyone has to take care of themselves and they can’t do that in hopes of an ideal life. They just have to survive being the best they can be.
My grandmother was a nationally respected dog trainer and breeder way back when women wore iron shackles to keep them in the kitchen. She successfully introduced two breeds into the usa, worked on creating a new breed and trained fogs for high level three letter agencies
whoa, Ton, that’s impressive!
She also raised 5 boys and a girl while my grandpaw fought in Europe, Korea and Vietnam; sent two sons to Vietnam, the other three to other various vacation spots, and her 1st 2 grandsons as well. At no point did she say she was a victim of war or bitch about how army wife/ grandma was the hardest job in the military
i cannot even begin to fathom such a legacy. alcoholism, physical abuse, and abandonment encompass my gmothers.
My paternal grandma was a good woman because my grandpaw had a strong pimp hand
My maternal grandmother was all those sorts of things because my maternal grandfather was a SNG of the era
“my grandpaw had a strong pimp hand”
“my maternal grandfather was a SNG of the era”
ummm … showing my naivete … but … would you mind interpreting?
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=keeping%20your%20pimp%20hand%20strong
It sounds like it means slapping her around a bit.
What is unclear?
SNG. or SNAG, stands for Sensitive New Age Guy.
I have to question Cyn who defined a feminine lifestyle as having hair and nails done, tans, cosmetics and so on.
Assuming you are American: I understand American women engage in a kind of competitive grooming, but that seems to me a superficial idea of femininity. In most of the world, these things are considered superfluous luxuries for rich girls. Even in Western Europe just bleeching teeth is something moviestars do – not even all public figures at that. It’s perfectly normal to see a politician on tv or a model in a magazine with natural teeth. It’s slooooowly becoming more popular, but far from necessary to be considered well-groomed (and many still consider it unnatural and even a little creepy). So I disagree that you need to make a lot of money to retain feminity. To me, it’s more in your demeanor and a kind of gentleness.
Where I live, it has relatively recently (I think since the 90s) become taboo to admit going to college to find a good man. The change might have something to do with the prices of education having sharply increased. Education for women was mostly considered a mark of good breeding, rather than a way to be financially independent. The more ambitious women picked up work again when the youngest kids were all in school.
Nowadays educated women often do little jobs here and there – maybe write for a website, something artsy, little projects, to keep up the appearance of being employed (with real jobs being hard to find), or when they have a solid job, they do it 2 days a week or so, often making use of grandmothers for babysitting. It’s still standard for women to do the traditional gender role tasks, but a part-time job ensures social acceptability and is doable because of washing machines and other such conveniences. In the cities, men often help out with the cooking and cleaning, in the country they don’t usually.
I think ideally, women should wait until 22/23 at least, because the common sense to choose a proper partner is often lacking in the very young. They can use the time up until then by educating themselves and nurturing their communities, helping out family, etc. And when the kids are in highschool, they can get a job or pick up education again, if they get bored or finances are a real problem. But I see no reason why you would get bored – plenty of opportunity to be creative and useful. I meet a lot of older people who have to rely on government, because their adult children are too busy to be of help. Personally I don’t like this – I mistrust government and believe in doing what is good for the family. My husband jokes that I would have made a good mobsters wife xD
I think my view is mostly based on: jobs are a means to an end – that end always being the good of the family. And personal fulfillment and happiness is something that comes naturally when all is well with the family. It all begins and ends there (even for people from dysfunctional families, you start again when you have a family of your own).
(Bonus comment: why have children? Because life is awesome, it’s the best gift you can give someone, especially when that life starts out in a loving family – I always forget to mention this to people who balk at diapers and midnight feedings, who think baby cuteness is not a convincing enough argument)
What’s the point in educated women racking up college debt to do little jobs here and there ? The whole thing is stupid
yep. incredibly.
my girls know they can go to college all they want if they pay-as-they-go. they are forbidden to take on any debt to go to school.
Thankfully there is an enormous amount of education freely available online, so one need not pay to learn.
The little jobs I mentioned earlier are mainly due to the fact that women feel they ought to work, but jobs in the soft sciences are very rare. Being told to ‘study what you love’ rather than to invest in your earning potential… There is a place for hobbys, but it is not the workplace.
Also, in my country, college quite swiftly went from being effectively free (government paid off your student loans if you finished in time) to being super expensive. It takes time for people to adjust their assumed course in life, now that the stakes have changed.
I just read an article on a womens website here where they have taboo confession stories. Up between “I am keeping the secret that my son in law has an affair” and “my politician husband and I are swingers” there was “I want to be a housewife if I can find a rich enough traditional man that I love”. Wow.
God bless this woman for being honest with her biological limitations and prioritizing her times accordingly. While some things are redeemable, our time and gametes’ viabilities are not.
There is a new post at Spawny’s
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/10/01/womens-choices/
Well it can be a way of filtering out those women who aren’t so intelligent
For a long time now I have been calling college and unintelligent test.
You’re smart enough to go on a scholarship or dumb enough to rack up debt.
After taking a glance at the post again, it is hard to believe that any thinking woman would buy into the feminist life script. Go to college, pursue a carer, have fuhn dating, and put off marriage until the last possible moment. There is a lot of peril there. It mostly falls apart at putting off marriage until the last moment. There may no be any men by that time, no that the beta bucks strategy is out in the open. These guys are going to line up to be divorced seven years later.
There is another drawback that feminists overlook. What is a woman going to do after dumping hubby and the alimony/child support runs out? A woman returning to the workplace at that age is not going tobe too welcome.
As for all the men that are her contemporary, they have found a way to make do and have lost all faith in women.
Feminism’s life script is a bad plan.
Hi guys, thanks for all the great comments. To clarify, I am not trying to say women MUST do this or that, but rather to point out that women are currently being sold two “truths” that may not be so: 1.) That if they don’t put education and career first before marriage and children they will “miss” the opportunity forever and 2.) The misconception that whenever a woman decided to have a baby, even at 35+, it will happen easily. Sometimes it does not. Women who do put off having children in their 20s should at least understand that getting pregnant may be more difficult with age and realize they are making a conscious choice. Women who think, “well I can just freeze some eggs and have them implanted later” should know IVF has an amazingly LOW success rate. The women I know who struggled with infertility after 35 said they had not been fully informed, and that they felt stories of celebrities having kids at 40+ meant that was now easier than in the past, when in reality it is not.
I can only guess at feminism’s agenda but, they definitely do have one and I don’t believe that it is compatible with what most women want. Why else would they promote complete lies as truth?
Fuzzie, good question! How did all these ideas get started, and why?
How did all these ideas get started, and why?
There is a post at Spawny’s
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/mens-choices-or-lack-thereof/
What’s missing in this red pill woman propoganda that women should marry young is that men generally don’t want to marry young. So even if you could convince women it’s in their best interest to forgo college and life experiences to get hitched in their late teens and early 20s, you also need to:
– convince men in their late teens and early 20s they should want to get married early
– figure out how to make today’s young men financially and emotionally stable and independent enough for marriage
– figure out how to help them stay married as marriages between people in their 20s have a far higher divorce rate
Unless you think young women should be marrying older men who are stable and ready for marriage. Eww…
@ Sass, true. That’s why women are often advised to not look at the men in their own age bracket (who aren’t ready to marry in their 20s) and look at guys about 5-10 years older, who are ready for marriage and who are just entering their peak years.
The path your babysitter has chosen is the best one. You need to get your education young enough so that you have the credentials. As a mother of children at this point in my life (I have young children as well as you and I’m forty), I can tell you that when you don’t have all your credentials, people won’t look at you regardless of your previous experience. I don’t have my bachelor’s degree; I only have an associate’s. Now, that worked for private schools where they aren’t required to have completely credentialed people, but it won’t fly for public schools or most charter schools. I had to fight to get my A.A. degree because my family was opposed to college for girls. I now find it UNBELIEVEABLY difficult to get work. No four-year degree — they don’t want you. One online tutoring job after another gone because I lack credentials. The fact that I’ve homeschooled forever doesn’t make any difference.
I have told my daughter she’s going to college — no ifs, ands or buts. I don’t want her getting into the same mess I am finding myself in. Contrary to popular belief among the uber-traditionalists, a college education does not necessarily mean a mound of debt — you start at community college and transfer those credits to four-year university BEFORE you get your Associates, you will have access to the scholarships. I was told this by an admissions officer on a recent tour of a university — if you transfer AFTER your A.A. degree has posted, you are then considered a transfer student instead of an incoming freshman. You’re considered incoming freshman as long as you don’t have the two year degree and it is the best choice financially. (You can petition for graduation from the community college and get the A.A. degree if you want it after you are admitted to the four year institution, but it has to happen after you are accepted and your scholarships are in order.) Something you might want to keep in mind if you have up and coming college students.
Also, the first-wave feminists who fought for the right to vote often included professional women. It was in the 1950’s when that first wave began to die out and the professional housewives who didn’t have enough to do came onto the scene. When Betty Friedan wrote “The Feminine Mystique” she wasn’t completely off her rocker — half of that book contains some very hard truths and realities that a lot of us who were raised in the uber-traditional realm were brainwashed into believing didn’t exist. She was not entirely wrong. An objective reading of that book will uncover some very uncomfortable realities that a lot of us would do well to think long and hard about.
The truth is, the line “I’m nothing without a man” is just not true. You most certainly ARE something, and there are many ways to make a contribution to the world and to your fellow man. For most of us, that includes marriage and children. The point is that when you think about what you should do in life, you need to think in terms of how will I best be able to utilize my talents in order to firstly serve God and secondly to contribute to the well-being and betterment of society.
After I literally “lost” myself in thinking I had to serve, serve and serve to the point I ruined my health, I finally thought it might be worth it to see if any of the “evil feminists” had something reasonable to say — and they definitely had valid points. I have a more balanced view now, which is why I’m the traditional feminist.
What’s missing in this red pill woman propoganda that women should marry young is that men generally don’t want to marry young
Actually many would they would