Even as much as I have learned and grown over the past several years since discovering the red pill, there are still times where I realize the old residual blue pill programming still pops up in my thinking from time to time.
For example, I was following a conversation elsewhere and made the remark that it would be great if our new president took up for men’s rights.
A red piller soon pushed back that no, men did not need the government to give them men’s rights, doing so would be just as much BS as women’s rights. Instead he pointed out the government should stay out of it.
Do rights come from within, or without? Oooommmm. Wow. Mind opening moment. Hard to put into words.
I wholeheartedly agreed, thanked him for the comment, and apologized for the bad phrasing. I admitted I still have blue pill programming here and there.
“That’s OK,” he said. “It will go away with time!” Lol.
Let those who have ears hear.
What do you think? Do you have any residual blue pill beliefs still lurking about?
You have an excellent point. They never go away entirely. You were also correct to limit your apology to “bad phrasing”. Your post made me also realize that the government has granted too much advantage. That is what needs to be addressed.
I just had an example. At my usual stomping grounds, a commenter post a picture of Prince Harry and a man who looks a great deal like him. I didn’t want to believe that about Diana.
“A red piller soon pushed back that no, men did not need the government to give them men’s rights …”
That’s a total deflection away from your point. So it gets disregarded.
Q: How then shall we live together?
A: Any way we want to.
In the free world, we as a people have decided that we want to have certain standards that define how we shall live together. Those standards must be enforced, because everyone has their own idea about how they want to live. We as a people (in the free world) have given our elected officials certain rights to enable them to enforce those generally agree-upon standards.
The government may not create men’s rights or women’s rights. But that is not the issue. “How, then, shall we live together” IS the issue. We have decided we want standards and we have given our elected officials certain rights to enable them to enforce those standard.
The government does not create certain rights.
But it certainly does enforce them (or not).
Creating the rights is not the issue. Enforcing the rights is the issue.
The U.S. Constitution alludes to this by stating that all men are born with certain inalienable rights, and then sets out the standards and mechanisms whereby those rights will be enforced.
The U.S. Constitution (and I suppose the governing documents of other free world countries) were created to protect us against the folks who say they are beholden to no one, least of all the government.
If you wish to live among us, we have agreed that you may not simply behave as you please.
At least, that is how it started out.
“A red piller soon pushed back that no, men did not need the government to give them men’s rights …”
In any group of people, those who are able to do so will soon take over the group and dominate it. That is a fact of life. There will never be a group that exists for long without some form of governance being imposed on it by those who can do the imposing.
“We the people”, in order to form a more perfect union, have created standards of behavior and have given elected officials the authority to enforce those standards, to protect ourselves against the excesses of those who would otherwise take over the group and dominate it.
So no, the government does not create rights.
But without the government’s enforcement of our agreed-upon standards, others may deny us the ability to exercise those rights. That is what my previous post was addressing.
So no, the government does not create rights.
The US Supreme Court creates rights it does.
Very odd this would be
George Liquor American said:
Blue Pill Bullshit:
George Liquor American said:
Red Pill Aftermath:
That is a bit of a contrast. I do believe that I have been there.
True Yoda and RichardP, Ok, maybe I wasn’t so far off base! I understand and agree less govt. in our lives is good, but the govt. still does define rights and also the legal system can tilt things for or against. I really do hope that the idea of men’s rights becomes a given, rather than people freaking out at the name and thinking it means no women’s rights or something.
Well put Richard P, agreed. There’s always one/some who will color outside the box, and bc of that it creates the need for govt. Kind of a catch 22 — those who behave don’t need it, but they do need it bc of the people who can’t.
George Liquor American said:
@ fuzzie; Yuge contrast, yuge!
I thought about linking Anne Murray singing The Teddy Bear’ Picnic and Rolling Stones Paint It Black with war footage to make it more personal. That would be a little much.
haha fuzzie … yeah, man … we all been there. Some contrast indeed.
I want to comment on RPG’s post and probably not the way she intended … and yeah … I do agree that everyone who has made to Blue to Red transition …. will always have fallbacks to being Blue again. Its normal, I think. Frankly, I think some of the blue pill ways are baked in … and you have to learn to over-ride your own genetic predispositions … NOT AN EASY THING TO DO !
Anyway, I have recently had thoughts along the same lines … restoring men’s rights … and hoping that Trump will do it. It would take him doing 1 of 2 things. #1 He can declare “men” a protected class as far as the department of labor is concerned. More on that in a second. The other thing he could do … get just get rid of most of the labor laws regarding discrimination. There are no “protected classes” because EVERYONE is a protected class … that is, you cannot discriminate against anyone.
So a little background. Several years ago I contacted the “Civil Rights Commission” which is funded by the state I live in (in the US) to inquire about filing a claim of discrimination. AND WAS SHOCKED BY WHAT I FOUND. Here is what I found. The “Civil Rights Commission” was no such thing … it was the “BLACK Civil Rights Commission”. I spoke with several people on the phone. Escalated the convo up the chain eventually speaking with someone in authority. And also exchanged emails. EVERY SINGLE PERSON AT THE OFFICE WAS BLACK. Now … I live in a state that is > 90% white … so that was odd. But was odder still was the attitude. The staff was rude, disrespectful and clearly understood that they owned the place. My taxpayer dollars at work. I was mocked, laughed at and generally disrespected … I maintained my composure and worked my way up that ladder … to eventually speak to a black male who was probably in charge or at least pretty high up the ladder. He kindly explained to me that the entire reason his organization existed and was funded by taxpayer dollars WAS TO FUCK MEN LIKE ME OUT OF A JOB. He carefully explained that employers can’t discriminate based on race (unless you are white). Or gender. Or religion. Or, or, or, or, or. These are categories of people who are “protected” by the law and you cannot discriminate against them. There is ONLY ONE CATEGORY THAT CAN BE LEGALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST: WHITE MALES.
The gentleman kindly explained to me that I could hire a lawyer and file a suit if I wished but there was NO WAY IN HELL THAT I WOULD WIN and no JUDGE would ever hear the case. In fact, he said even if I had the money to PAY A LAWYER … I probably wouldn’t even be able to find one who would take the case because every lawyer in the state knew there wasn’t a chance in hell that it would ever be heard and it would impact his reputation … because he was so stupid to file it in the first place … he’d look like a moron who didn’t know shit about the law. So it would be decision for the lawyer … take my case (money) knowing it would go nowhere AND BEING LAUGHED OUT OF THE COURTROOM.
Yeah. Right. That there is dose of Red Pill reality. So, yeah, RPG … give men their rights back would be a good start …
A new post at Spawny’s there would be
Another thing the President could do is stop funding anti male institutions. While Congress can choose how the money gets spent, someone in the Executive branch has to put a stamp on the envelope. Hmmmm…
Yes Mega, I think the protected class thing has affected many white men that way. I know it’s a “sacred cow” but at some point has that run its course and people need to compete on merit. Either the program worked and isn’t needed or it will never work but it can’t just go on and on. Agreed.
Sensible response, Ms Bloom. I think a lot of us are of the same mindset … with Trump shaking things up … its time for a reset. Some of the crap that has gone down for the last 30-40 years is no longer getting a free pass.
Interesting thought. I agree that the government should stay out of it. Same for women’s rights. For example, I recently moved to a new state and currently without insurance, so I started paying out of pocket for my birth control again. I really don’t mind and actually prefer it that way as long as it’s affordable. However, it’s not always affordable for everyone, unfortunately. If it were affordable across the board, everyone could pay out of pocket and taxpayers wouldn’t have a say since they aren’t involved.
Not having sex is free of charge these days!
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Blue Pill Programming is pretty much anything that puts women on a pedestal and inflates their SMV while putting down men.
Housewifey, you’re right. And call me crazy, but I like sex. That and my fiance can’t keep his paws off me, so that’s not really much of an option for us at this time.
Besides, being on the pill makes my period much lighter, shorter, no cramps., and reduces cancer risks. I can’t complain about that.
I think the small exchange between Happyhousewifey and Ash points to a huge gulf between single women and married women raising kids. While single women are looking for government handouts, mothers would like to see their husbands pay less in taxes so they can buy more groceries. Kids eat a lot. They like food.
Just because someone likes sex doesn’t mean others should pay to conveniently spare them of consequences. I like chocolate, yet it is not subsidized and neither is the exercise I need from eating too much. And I always understood the pill increased cancer risk, not reduced it, and causes our pee to bring more hormones into the environment to the detriment of us all and can permanently damage your libido as well as temporarily chance your taste in men.
Fuzzy is right. I also don’t want affirmative action to cost him job opportunities. Or for him to lose a job over a silly joke.
If birth control were kept affordable and accessible, others wouldn’t have to worry about it. Like I said, I pay out of pocket now.
Where I live we have free health care (you pay at income tax time based on your income) I can go to the doctor or hospital anytime I want or need to and not pay a cent. But we must pay for our own prescriptions including birth control. There is an exception and that would be people on welfare they get their meds free.
I often hear people complain about the cost of meds and have done so myself but I have never heard anyone complain about having to pay for birth control or even that they are expensive.
Some employers offer extra coverage through private insurance and they will pay for prescriptions. Now whether that includes birth control or not I do not know.
What is so special about birth control that it an issue? They could always use a diaphram then they would have reason to whine.
Question – is it red pill or blue pill to believe that birth control is up to the individual/couple? Both in the sense of cost and of using it at all.
Feminists have made an issue of birth control in wanting someone else to pay for it. There is enough here for a whole post, if not a series. It does come down to the married woman teaming up with her husband knowing that she will be financially dependent on him. In the case of the single woman, she maintains the fiction of independence while being dependent on the government to transfer wealth from men .
Birth control is different because sex is a choice (unlike allergies). Many people also take issue with paying for health costs of smokers and drinkers (I do not, some relatives live off treating their self-inflicted problems, so for me it’s a win, but I get that people resent it). I always despised borderliners and their suicide attempts keeping family working over the holidays… That’s not red pill I suppose, but going off topic keeps the conversations going 🙂 🙂 🙂
That’s a good question, Lenny. I think the red pill in general urges self responsibility and self reliance, so I would say the cost should be personal. That said, I personally would rather people who can’t even afford birth control not have babies, so I could see the argument too that in that case it is for the greater good of all it is paid for? I do wonder though if affording birth control is a choice for many? I know several women on food stamps who have a newer phone than myself, never miss a manicure/pedicure, and smoke cigarettes (@ $8-10 a pack!) so….. (p.s. I could have gotten food stamps but didn’t bc I personally prefer not to get trapped in a welfare mentality. And we eat well, have never missed a meal! But I live frugally otherwise, don’t spend on phones, nails, cigarettes, etc.)
I am behind on comments her so more when I catch up but everyone please, debate freely. Good discussion is good! Everybody please remember to respect other’s right to their opinions at the same time, ok? 🙂
I could not use *the Pill*. So when first married we used old fashioned types of birth control and then decided we might as well just start having our babies. In between babies I used an IUD which I thought was the best thing since sliced bread. No memory or action required.
We decided after three children that we had reached our limit. I chose to do the permanent thing because I did not want to have anymore babies myself. My ex was glad of my decision, he thought it would make him less of a man to do it himself – whatever – he never did father anymore children.
At no time did either he nor me expect anyone else to foot the bill for our decisions regarding birth control options. We considered it personal and private. And health care back then was different here than it is today.
Overall I agree, the government shouldn’t be in the business of “giving” rights. But there’s one right that is discussed occasionally here–women having the “right” to vote. Some red pill guys think that this “right” should be taken away from women, and only men should be allowed to vote. I like having a say in how I am governed, so I want to still be able to vote and I’m glad that I’m able to do so.
Birth control has some pretty permanent mental effects and rather nasty aftereffects upon the environment, so its a pity that its as commonly used as it is. But I’m convinced that with the generally short time preference that humans engage in, nothing will prevent it from being so widely used so might as well view the consequences with calm.
@Sue I have my doubts about the entire system of voting. It creates perverse incentives where ultimately, 51% of the population will always vote for their interest against the 49% of the population. This is rational, but combined with short-termism, results in the spiraling debt that is symbolic of all “true democracies.”
Allowing women to vote has empirically increased the welfare state and bureaucracy, but I’m not sure it alone had made such a difference, as much as accelerated a trend that would already occur.
So I’m pretty agonistic to it; I consider myself redpill and strongly traditional, but I don’t think that most of the ills of the modern world can be traced directly to feminism, but rather to treat feminism as one of the symptoms of imbalance, not the cause.
Linny, same where I live, but we pay a few money for expensive meds, The State takes care of it. And that is not against private property of free enterprise.
Said that, what is paradoxical in the Red Pill is that -at the end of the day- is a leftist movement.
MGTOW and Alt Right both are the main Red Pill movements, which are originally American movements but…
The final station of MGTOW is Antinatalism. Antinatalism as philosophy which is rooted in Europe and is very old: the Kión philosophers in Greece, the Christian monks, Schopenhauer, Mainlander, Sartre-Beauvior (both communists)
The Alt Right´s main source is the French New Right.
OK, let´s go further: the French New Right is a neopagan movement, trying to revival pre-Christian Europe. In Europe there is a let´s say “Folk Left” which has been always vindicating neopaganism: Wicca, Odinism, etc.
The typical Right wing was not into neopaganism. At least in Spain, where is a strong Wicca movement in the Atlantic Coast. The Right never supported neopaganism considering it kinda “hippy”.
Besides, there is a lot of proto-feminism in Wicca and Odinism.
So, is the Right becoming hippy?
I remember back in the 90s a lot of leftist people in Europe complaining about the Catholic Church being “too conservative”. Today, rightist people complaining about the Catholic Church being “too progressive”.
In the 90s a lot of leftist people in the US complaining about Evangelical Churches about being “too redneck”. Today a lot of rightist American people complaining about Evangelical Churches being “too Zionist”.
Anti-Zionism has always been a tradition in the European Left. Now, the Right (the identitarian Right not the typical Right) is anti Zionist.
It was the European Left which was pro pornography, pro legal prostitution and anti marriage. In the 70s.
Today, the Left is anti pornography, anti legal prostitution and pro marriage (a bachelor in his 40s is shamed by leftists as “weirdo”, “loser” for to be a “complete man” you have to be “accepted” by a woman.
The identitarian Right in France (Le Pen) is agreeing with the Agrarian Left (Bové)
The identitarian Right in Greece is in alliance with Syriza (the far Left).
And so on…
My statement is that we are drowning in paradoxes. We people who are old enough know it, or should know it. That is why I take anything which has to do with the Red Pill very carefully. History is a spiral, not a line.
That is my residual Blue Pill.
Wachosky Bros. invented the Red Pill/Blue Pill concept back in 1999. But Wachosky Bros made “V from Vendetta” too. About a fascist totalitarian regime.
What is coming soon, for sure, is Le Pen´s victory in France and then… the rising of a new paradigm, here at this side of the Atlantic.
About the right of women to vote, for most of life, I felt that opening the franchise would be a good thing. A few years ago, I was exposed to arguments that demonstrated how women would vote in a bloc for socialism at men’s expense and I was beginning to be persuaded. With the last election, women voting fifty three percent for Trump, did a lot to restore my faith in women.
@Iberian the Alt-Right is nowhere as near united as to have a common point of thought, but I can say that it is definitely not a largely neopagan movement despite having a significant quantity of them. Its mostly a pushback, I would say, its united mostly by the rejection of the Enlightenment ideology of “equality” which works only to a certain extent, but has been taken to its natural extreme extent, and has resulted in a large number of different self-interested factions fighting for a shrinking slice of the pie.
But yes, history is indeed a spiral and its interesting to see how many causes have switched positions. And hypocrisy, I think, is as fundamentally human as anything else.
I too live in Canada with free healthcare. And I pay 200 a month for my heart pills
So I Dont Die!!
But I dont ask for the government to pay.
So subsidized birth control ( or viagra or pimple medication)?
Its The WHITE HOUSE.
He asked men to wear suits and women to be presentable.
Seriously? Its a place of business.
And not the twitter picture atached to the article.
I wouldnt let my staff dress like that in my long term care
Let alone The WHITE HOUSE.
Or am I just old?
You are only old in the sense that you can detect bullshit.
These women are declaring political war on the President of the United States. At some point, they may want a favor, and I don’t think that he will give it to them. Let them all go to the beach and pond sand in union suits and pussy hats.
There is more. These women are in rebellion to the natural order. They presume themselves to be superior to men to the point where they will not tolerate criticism. That Donald Trump is the President and wants female staff to dress “like women” in the White House exceeds his authority in their estimate. This is insanity.
Trump has the right to create a dress code for his female staff, but those women have the right to refuse to work for him if they so wish.
That we are discussing this means that something has gone terribly wrong. The train is off the rails.
As Takimag’s wonderful Kathy Shaidle shares with us:
“Women don’t want their grievances fixed, you silly boys.
They want them heard.”
Complaining is pretty fun, you have to admit. Its very cathartic.
About neopaganism… when I was young I was very much into neopaganism, but I never was anti-Catholic. The Catholic thing was truly fascinating but not enough exciting. Now I am going back to the Catholic Church (carefully). And when Evangelicals bitch about the Catholic Church being “pagan” then I like more and more the Church of Rome. Yes, the Whore of Babylonia sounds great to me.
I don´t get it. Today women dressing like whores all over the place and when they tell them to still dressing like whores in the White House, they complain. Then they want to go there dressing like prudes.
Fuzzie, it is funny how something like this has suddenly become a relevant hot topic since Trump has come into the picture. Next week, it will be something else women are doing, I’m sure.
It is the underlying attitude. They presume, as women, they have authority greater than that of the President of the United States. Vanity on that level can’t be appeased.
Iberian, I love your take on all this! Can’t find a ‘like’ button here 🙂
Thank you, Housewifey 🙂
so gonna threadjack again, sorry RPG … so the new GF is coming over to watch the Super Bowl in a few yours. Was going to hit her up with a test. I’ve been gradually bringing up Red Pill topics to “test the waters” … going ok so far. She has a vagina so is a Feminist when there isn’t a man around (me, lol). Anyhow … here is the test … we evaluate each new commercial and rank them.
We get 1 point for any commercial that is pro male and get 5 points for anything that is pro white-male.
We get -1 point for anything that is anti-male and -5 points for anything that is anti-white male.
We get -1 point for anything that is PRO FEMALE … which by its nature would be ANTI-MALE. If its PRO FEMALE AND PRO MINORITY (like black) then its -5.
We get 1 point for anything that encourages conservative values and -1 point for anything that encourages progressive values. Encouraging going to church is a +1, encouraging gambling or drug/alcohol use is a -1.
We get -1 point for anything that PUSHES THE PROGRESSIVE AGENDA. Music like black Rap or Hip/Hop that encourages anti-police behavior. Anything that encourages violence. This is an add-on bonus to previous ones. So if a commercial is pro female, anti male, anti white, pushes the progressive agenda, encourages hate … we get -8.
Now, I am a believer that Hollyweird and the Ad agencies are EVIL and in pushing the progressive agenda … really don’t know understand that some people can identify the EVIL they push. So any commercial that pushes Evil … Satanic, Violence, etc gets a – 3. And this includes how they push the Evil agenda by tricking people. Like push movies that brainwash people into believing in Magic, Special Powers, etc. So, lets say they advertise an upcoming movie about Batman, followed by the latest Spiderman, followed by the latest X-Men movie, followed by Ironman. That would be a negative 12 points; 4 movie ecouraging people to believe in special powers … x -3. Now I would say the opposite is true … +3 points for good movies … but I am not alone in thinking there hasn’t been a “good” movie produced in Hollyweird in over a decade. Dalrock … regularly posts about “Christian” movies and how they are really just a facade … lies trying to trick Christians into false beliefs. In other words … even so-called Christian movies are Evil. So no positive points here. If it comes from Hollyweird … negative all around.
As for politics … its an even trade. +5 points for anything that promotes conservative values or praises Republicans or Libertarians. A PRO-TRUMP Ad gets 5 points. Negative 5 points for anything that bashes Republicans or Libertarian values. Or is blatantly PRO-DEMOCRAT.
Anything that promotes domestics terrorism like BLM is -25 points.
If the halftime show is nothing but an exercise in anti-Trump, pro criminal illegal aliens, women rule, men suck, the election was stolen, white men are evil and have privilege, women are underpaid, men should pay for women’s abortion so they can murder their own born children for free, BEING A SLUT IS OK !!! Are their sluts on display … dancing practically naked …
Yeah … I get -50 if the halftime show is manifesto of progressive values and man hate.
So the bet would be … how far negative will it go ? -10 ? -20 ? -50 ? -100 ? I’d think somewhere around -90 or so. Maybe + 5 points and negative 100.
Yeah. Just trying to make a point. Actually … kinda planning on having sex again during halftime, lol (hidden agenda). She’s coming over early so we go at it then. By halftime … I’ll be ready to go again and don’t want to watch Gaga and her manifesto of man hate … so good excuse to go at it again.
Just wanting to make a point here and use this as an example of how biased the media really is and how most weak people are to the brainwashing that is going on. Pretty sure the propaganda is going to be on display … big time. All you need … is to look for it.
Have fun everyone and enjoy the game !
I think that she likes you. Have fun!
Well that was fun, lol. GF came over we fooled around and then got a pizza just in time for the game to start. And … didn’t bring up my scoring system for ads, lol. After sex we were talking about the game and she got all excited about the new commercials being rolled out. A common thing … people who don’t even like football like to see the new commericals … and didn’t want to burst her bubble.
And glad I didn’t … the Ads didn’t seem nearly as sexist as those over the last few years. But damn there were a bunch of Ads about the upcoming movies all pushing special powers, magic, super heros, etc. And she likes movies like that … so glad I didn’t say anything.
Didn’t want to watch lady gaga and her push her anti trump and man hate so retired to the bedroom … didn’t take much convincing, lol. We were proceeded to hang out there for the next couple of hours … behind 21-3 at half and Atlanta playing some darn good ball … figured the game was over … most super bowls aren’t very good games anyway.
So we went down to get her purse as she was preparing to leave … only to find the game was still on … tied up and in overtime … HOLY CRAP !!! We missed all of it !!! But man, halftime must have lasted a long time … we thought the game was probably long over. Did get to watch most of OT and see the Pats win !
I just got online and watched some of the highlights and holy cow … we did indeed miss the greatest comeback in super bowl history. Oh and heard that gaga didn’t issue and anti drump, anti male message either. So was wrong about that. Maybe Trump and all the crap going on is making a positive difference. Given all the chaos going on around the country … I wouldn’t think so … but that gives me a little hope anyway.
Oh and I had to watch the highlights would have been a little awkward tomorrow at work … the guys … Awesome comeback !!! Best game in history !!! ME: sorry, I missed it. My GF came over and we spent the entire time in bed …. hahah … naw, wouldn’t have said that but … woulda been kinda of hard to explain …
A good time had by all. That is good to hear.
Just saw Madame Le Pen last video.
Today the real feminists are the neo fascists. And the so called “feminists” are just submissive to Islamic invasion.
That may be one aspect of it. It may come down to a division between women who don’t want to see men come to harm and those that do.
Is it between *come to harm* or is *do them harm*?
I belong to a forum that is over 5000 members of which only 3 or 4 are men. Many of the posts are vents about their male partners. Most of those are so silly I just laugh.
But the minute divorce is mentioned the advice given is so nasty in reference to the men that I am shocked by it. The women are immediately assumed to be 100% innocent and are told to do everything in their power to make sure the men involved are punished to the maximum.
Sometimes I decide to get mouthy and give my opinion or ask questions no one wants to have voiced. Instant pile on.
Needless to say I don’t post there very often anymore. Maybe I should get a bigger stick so I can stir more shite.
I have given the birth control question some more thought and now find my thoughts between a rock and a hard place.
I believe everyone should be responsible for the cost of their own birth control. But at the same time I would rather fund it than see abortion used to replace it.
I really hope they come up with a male birth control pill soon.The cost of getting a girl accidently pregnant should ensure that no man ever misses a pill. It would also reduce the welfare programs since there would be fewer young women getting pregnant just to be able to leave home without having to get a job.
Not sure how the condom manufacturers will feel about it but easy come, easy go.
While fifty percent of marriages end in divorce, women initiate seventy to eighty percent of them. That little tidbit probably won’t go down too well on your old forum. Given what you said, we are in a gender war and things are dwindling to two options for men. Go full on alpha cad and have a lot of fun or go MGTOW and drop out. There are so few wo,men who will live cooperatively with men that it is getting hopeless. They did pile on you, didn’t they?
As for birth control, you attitude mirrors mine, but we may never see male birth control over feminist objection.
There will still be a sound reason for using condoms. While they are marginally good at birth control, they are the best defense against contracting STDs that we have.
Yes, think of the biggest mountain and I was buried under it.
But today for the first time I mentioned mgtow. That should give them something new to think about.
You are right about condoms, they should be used for disease prevention. But I know many who do not use them and I happen to know that some really should be unbeknown to them.