While in the car with the kids and Dancer’s youngest we were listening to the radio. It was set to a channel with today’s top music.
The lyrics of one song struck me. It basically was about relationships, advising to “Just go with it,” and “To see where it goes.”
This is popular relationship advice aimed at young women today, but for the most part it’s really bad advice. Just like hookup culture, casual sex, and no strings attached are bad advice.
Women who get involved in undefined or poorly defined sexual relationships hoping they will “maybe” go somewhere or turn into something are setting themselves up for repeated and needless pain.
It opened the door to a teachable moment about valuing oneself. About a really good talk about how girls they knew or saw taking this route were not having success but rather multiple failures.
I encouraged the girls to take the path less travelled. While other girls are dating young and getting all wrapped up in boys, they could instead invest all that energy in themselves, in learning life skills, in preparing themselves for their future forever guy and for a happy, stable life.
Multiple rejections, heartbreaks, and bad experiences do the opposite. One only needs to look around in real life to see many examples of that. Painting it as “normal” teenage rights of passage has lead to a lot of destruction. As has the common, “just go with it” advice.
I hope a seed was planted. I wish someone had told me these things at their age.
What do you think? Please share in the comments!
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
I would also say that just going with it is bad advice. I encourage women towards a strong dating and relationship strategy.
Boundaries and standards are required for getting the relationships you want with men. You shouldn’t have to spend years on guys who are ultimately not worth the time or effort.
The scheduled post for tommorow at Spawny’s deals with topic.
You raise a good point about pop music and what girls pick up on when they hear it. I’ve always been appalled by Rihanna’s “Like the way you lie,” for example. Some might say it was intended to ironic, but the average listener can’t possibly be getting that. More likely they hear that it’s somehow sexy to be in a crappy relationship. And then there’s the genre of song whose lyrics say “I lost her, I did a rotten thing, I’m not sorry and I’m not going to change, but I want her back.” My 22-year-old musician son was just railing about that type of pop music the other day, and it’s one I’ve always disliked, too.
Blundering through life a poor approach it would be
Good that sieze “teachable moments” you do
Worked well with Luke this approach did
The #MeToo fiasco and the Aziz Ansari incident are indicative of the fact that maybe young women are getting wrong / no advice on how to handle their dating and sexuality. It’s indicative of a fundamental problem, that women may not be completely communicating their lack of interest and are going along and regretting it later.
Women are not being programmed to deal with men, anymore than men are being programmed to correctly deal with women. I still insist is that the Crux of the problem is single motherhood, and lack of a father figure to teach virtue and responsibility, healthy parenting, the image of a positive masculine figure (apparently there is no such thing if you ask feminists), etc. But in typical fashion, men are being blamed for simply not “knowing” what a woman wants or doesn’t want.
Condi Rice just mentioned the phenomena of the modern snowflake, and that #MeToo, if taken too far, risks infantilism of women. I think it’s too late, to be honest. Of course, liberal media is criticising her for that comment, even if she is totally right.
Let’s be honest. Women simply aren’t cut out for casual sex in the same way that men are. The witch hunt is indicative of as much. The best thing that you can do for your young ones is steer them away from the popular narrative, or else they’ll just end up alone in the hookup culture like so many others are; Looking for that next dopamine hit when they’ve bonded for a few minutes with the next ONS.
I find it fascinating that the leftist media pretends to be in favor of women’s rights, yet end up to be the most exploitive of them. They preach negative behaviors, people get hurt, and then look for someone else to blame when it’s clearly gone awry. Something to be said about the ways that people used to do things, because we basically are undoing thousands (or more) of years of behaviors that actually kept our loved ones safe. Now, it’s like people go right to sex before even getting to know someone. Not that this can’t work, but more often than not it doesn’t if it’s a relationship you want.
“I encouraged the girls to take the path less travelled. While other girls are dating young and getting all wrapped up in boys, they could instead invest all that energy in themselves, in learning life skills, in preparing themselves for their future forever guy and for a happy, stable life.”
Yes! And getting them to invest in others is important, but I’m sure you know that ❤ My parents had me do a ton of volunteering on top of sports and music and dance, and the volunteering was honestly the most fulfilling and those experiences stayed with me into adulthood (more than the dance, piano or flute or hurdling etc).
Those teenage years should be for keeping girls innocent and developing their character – which can be done toward men as well in teaching them how to respect the men in their lives. And teaching them to admire the good-men qualities that Deti says are not supposed to be arousing.
‘Let’s be honest. Women simply aren’t cut out for casual sex in the same way that men are.’
They’re not. Pointing that out starts to pop their bubble of equality. I don’t think most women even have a clue that’s how they should react and feel when they hook up with a guy they don’t know and aren’t married to.
Sex ed for women is terrible. It’s all about how to prevent pregnancy…it has nothing to do with how it affects them physically, mentally, or emotionally.
“Women simply aren’t cut out for casual sex in the same way that men are.”
Men may be “cut out” for casual sex, but since they must have it with women who aren’t cut out for it, they are doing her no favors. It’s not good for her, but he wants it anyway. All women should be educated about the selfishness of it.
For their own preservation and well-being, women should always refuse casual sex. If this were to happen (I wish!), it wouldn’t matter if he was “cut out” casual sex, he wouldn’t be getting any!
If only women would understand this, how much better things would be.
Let’s be honest. Women simply aren’t cut out for casual sex in the same way that men are.’
I have searched for a good explanation as to why this is, but have come up empty. Any takers?
‘I have searched for a good explanation as to why this is, but have come up empty. Any takers?’
For one virginity in a woman is important. It doesn’t say everything about her, but it says a lot about her. Things like marital stability, risk of divorce, overall health of a marriage consistantly have the best chances out of all of them if the woman is a virgin going in.
‘All women should be educated about the selfishness of it.
For their own preservation and well-being, women should always refuse casual sex. If this were to happen (I wish!), it wouldn’t matter if he was “cut out” casual sex, he wouldn’t be getting any!’
Agreed.
“Men may be “cut out” for casual sex, but since they must have it with women who aren’t cut out for it, they are doing her no favors. It’s not good for her, but he wants it anyway. All women should be educated about the selfishness of it.
For their own preservation and well-being, women should always refuse casual sex. If this were to happen (I wish!), it wouldn’t matter if he was “cut out” casual sex, he wouldn’t be getting any!
If only women would understand this, how much better things would be.”
————-
Not hatin’ on you Sue, but you do always seem to turn it around on the guys. I don’t believe that the majority of men would truly be taking advantage of the situation if they had the option of a good wife at home. Most men prefer the old system that you feminists referred to as a “patriarchy”, because fathers are the real parent that normally wants a stable family. See divorce rate if you disagree. Of course, there will always be cheaters. Casual sex is essentially what’s left after feminist counterculture nuked the family and became the mainstream, and now it’s failed miserably so someone has to pay. The whole “game” concept of RP is that one of taking advantage of a broken system.
But I can tell that you deeply resent men like that, just as these men deeply resent feminism.
Someone recently said that the media isn’t doing women any favors as well, with the recent influx of super strong wymenz movies. Pretend fantasy super heroines that can kick the asses of 100 trained soldiers with her bare hands. Apparently it’s passe to teach the girls to be proper, respectful, and ladylike now.
Ladies need to stop blaming the guys, because the only people that can keep the whammnens in line is other whammens. If you ladies really believe it’s the wrong way, then you need to do a better job of teaching the rest the right way, because they sure as hell aren’t listening to the men in all of this. At least Condi Rice seems to know what’s up and isn’t afraid to tell the world, yet people seem to hate her for it.
“I have searched for a good explanation as to why this is, but have come up empty. Any takers?”
—————–
Essential biological differences required for childbearing drive the need for real pair bonding, resources and protection for a woman and her children. Throw it all out the window and women try to pretend to be men and screw their hormones up with birth control. Her biology dictates that she needs a mate, even if it’s the wrong one, but the circumstances are way wrong. It’s this way because we need it to be to evolve and keep the species alive, by design of your creator if you believe in that.
Lack of common sense has told everyone that we should discard everything that we know about the sciences behind human / mammalian reproduction and that everything old was just a social construct that men somehow imposed upon women to keep them down. This is a commonly perpetuated lie so people tend to ignore the obvious. And they throw out the Bible even though it basically says that the whole thing was Gods design. I’m not even a Christian and I think it still makes a hella more sense than what’s going on.
It’s should be obvious by now that it’s not working.
And ladies, you shouldn’t be offended by your biology. It’s the same reason that men are considered disposable even today; Sent to war, protect, gain resources. Even if it’s not what men want to do, it’s just been the way that it has always worked.
Farm Boy – Consider that a man could mate with 20 women within a short time, even just a few days, and each has the potential to bear children.
Consider that a human gestation period is approximately 9 months, which means that a woman is limited for approximately a year or more for bringing about a child. The physiological and psychological differences are not an accident. They are a necessity.
“Relationship”…
“Boyfriend”…
“Girlfriend”…
All meaningless words. There is no permanence with any of them, or with casual ‘dating’.
Never forget that “dating”, “relationships”, “boyfriend”, and “girlfriend” were all created so that individuals could engage in sex without getting married first.
I would encourage young people to aim a lot higher than that. It’s a pity that very few remain who want more than just a “boyfriend” or “girlfriend” to screw around with.
Or rather, focus on partnership. Even marriage can be viewed as just a piece of paper.
I think that you mean a prison sentence for men. If it were just a piece of paper, men could walk with no obligation.
Not sure what kind of guy you are dating at 10 years, but he’s clearly got some common sense.
A better way to put it; You are basically a perfect girlfriend for not demanding marriage after 10 years. Though depending upon where you live, you might actually be “married” under common law.
“Not sure what kind of guy you are dating at 10 years, but he’s clearly got some common sense.”
We both have more common sense then most people we’ve ever met. That’s why we’re still together and people come to us for advise. But not many people like to hear what we have to say. That’s their problem.
“We both have more common sense then most people we’ve ever met. That’s why we’re still together and people come to us for advise. But not many people like to hear what we have to say. That’s their problem.”
————————
What is it that they find so hard to hear?
“Not hatin’ on you Sue, but you do always seem to turn it around on the guys. ”
In my church, there are no men getting “casual sex” and it wouldn’t be morally acceptable for them to do so.
I’m not blaming men who believe women can do casual sex, but I don’t think it’s right for a man to believe that it’s harming her but still encourage it for his own pleasure.
Why do you always use your church as a scapegoat in every discussion? Your church needs to step out into the real world then to teach its message to everyone else. It’s like you live on an island in some remote land.
What you don’t get is that the man doesn’t believe that he is harming her, as you imply. You’re pushing the victim narrative again. These women believe that they are sexually liberated and empowered…. Under the right circumstances, of course.
By implying that he is somehow harming her is to admit that she’s somehow incapable of managing her own vagina. But that’s clearly contradictory to the empowering bullshit that many young women are being fed by people outside of your church.
OT
https://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/crown-season-2-offers-startling-message-marriage/
music gives us great teaching opportunities as moms 🙂
about eight years ago my Oldest had a weekend birthday slumber party. we’d recently moved an hour or so away from the friends she’d grown up with, so I drove over, picked up four of her friends, and brought them back for a weekend of fun for her twelth birthday weekend.
on the way back, six tired girls (including Youngest) rode quietly back home listening to the radio when Tequila Makes Her Clothes Fall Off came on. I took that opportunity to freak them out a bit … telling them stories of when I was in high school and girls woke up the next morning in a hotel room with a guy and no memory of the night before cause they were too drunk or high to remember. I told them that if they didn’t want to have pics and video of them running around naked and not knowing why they woke up in bed with a boy, they need to be careful what and how much they drink. I looked back in the rearview mirror at six bug-eyed girls with a dose of ‘i’m really freaked out now’ on their faces 🙂 . idk if any of it sank in for the other girls, but mine have heard it enough to be very cautious in their choices 🙂
this is how my daughters have heard stuff like this over the years: “You will have lots of opportunities to do stuff like drink and do drugs and have sex, and I won’t be there. It will be your choice. Go ahead, drink and get drunk (do drugs, have sex, etc) … and if you do, this is what will happen ____________ … or don’t.”
I’ve always thought knowing their choices was a good thing 🙂
“Why do you always use your church as a scapegoat in every discussion?”
Scapegoat? It’s doing something right, in my opinion.
“Your church needs to step out into the real world then to teach its message to everyone else.”
Many churches teach the same as my church and try very hard to get the message out. We can’t force people to listen or believe.
“What you don’t get is that the man doesn’t believe that he is harming her, as you imply.”
Didn’t I also say that I don’t blame him if he thinks women can do casual sex?
Sadly, too many men and women believe that there’s no harm in casual sex. Is this not so?
“You’re pushing the victim narrative again. These women believe that they are sexually liberated and empowered…. Under the right circumstances, of course.”
I don’t see how it’s morally right when somebody believes an activity is harmful to someone else but encourages them to engage in it anyway.
“By implying that he is somehow harming her is to admit that she’s somehow incapable of managing her own vagina. But that’s clearly contradictory to the empowering bullshit that many young women are being fed by people outside of your church.”
All I’m saying I don’t think it’s morally right. Either it’s bad for her or it isn’t. If casual sex is fine for him, who is he going to have casual sex with? The only option is with someone (a woman), which isn’t good for her. Either this is true or it isn’t.
Oops, that last sentence wasn’t meant to be all italicized!
Ame left me with real LOLs there.
Sue – The point of the whole topic is the “just go with it” concept. It’s largely being taught by women, not men. If men had their choice they’d hide their daughters from the outside world. Too many grown women are simply shitty role models for their girls.
At this point, I’m not even sure that the church can help anyone. The really conservative churches are so isolated, as though they are afraid to come out and face the world. And the more liberal churches are so backwards that the women (who often lead) are sending mixed messages to their girls.
You’ve got women who teach girls these mixed messages, yet men continue get the blame for treating these women as “equals” when it comes to the ability to decide to have sex.
Women can’t have it both ways. Either they need to be able to take ownership of their sexuality or go back to a system where a woman’s sexuality was essentially managed by someone else; chaperones, arranged marriage, zero premarital sex and Biblical
marriage and divorce law. What is it that you ladies want? There clearly is no middle ground here. The mass witch hunt is proof that there are differences here that many women simply cannot handle.
I don’t even have a stake in this game because I’ve already said that I’m not a Christian. I’m also not even dating or having sex right now while I take some time to process the divorce. I just find the whole thing to be appalling and we now live in a world full of lunatics that can’t seem to figure out what it is that they want.
In some respect, I get it why some of the guys in this community are branded as misogynist because they seemed to get it and give up debating it some time ago, because there is no rationalizing with half of the population that is so afflicted with such massive inner turmoil.
hehehe, A Dad 🙂
it goes something like this:
Wanna drink and do drugs? Okay, that’s fine. Here’s what will happen. If I ever get a call that you’re drunk or high, I’ll call the police myself and let you spend the night in jail. Meanwhile, I’ll clean out your room, and you’ll come home to a mattress, a blanket, a pillow, and three changes of clothes. You will loose all your technology. Or, you can choose not to do drink and do drugs. Either way is fine with me. Your choice.
thankfully i’ve never had to back that up 🙂
but i have backed up my word enough that my girls know not to mess with me.
and if you think that’s harsh … here’s the reality. my aspie-girl has had to take lots of different drugs over her lifetime for various body things. she *knows* how brain meds work and don’t work. she *knows* that if she mixes drugs or alcohol with the brain she has, it can really, really screw her up. my Oldest has an anaphylactic allergy to fire ants – she’s out drinking or doing drugs in a field, gets bit by an ant, and no one there will be sober enough to get her help in time. (and in texas we cohabitate with fire ants). add in the neurological disorder my Oldest developed when her dad told her he didn’t want her … mix alcohol or drugs into that mix, and nothin good can come out of it.
my girls have also been taught that there are some things in life where we get a second chance … or third or fourth … and there are other things where you don’t. in our home, for my girls, one ‘chance’ is all they get for drinking and drugs. i’m more than glad to call the cops on them myself – i will not cover for their stupidity. and they’ll come home to find they’ve lost all their stuff and my trust and respect. and they’ll have to work their butt off to earn it back.
i’ve also taught them sex is precious and their purity is valuable. i’ve taught them that they are married to whomever gets their virginity, so choose wisely. i’ve taught them they can only give their first kiss away one time, can only give their virginity away one time. choose wisely.
i’ve also taught them that their friends and their friends’ choices greatly influence their choices. choose wisely.
i’ve also taught them that they can do things the easy way or the hard way … the easy way is how i’ve taught them … the hard way is defiantly doing what they know is wrong. their choice. they’ll giggle and tell you, “DO IT THE EASY WAY! TRUST ME! YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO IT THE HARD WAY!!!” lessons learned … the hard way 😉
Also … addiction and alcoholism run in the family. Best treatment is to never begin.
“The point of the whole topic is the “just go with it” concept. It’s largely being taught by women, not men. If men had their choice they’d hide their daughters from the outside world. Too many grown women are simply shitty role models for their girls.”
I agree with all of this. Believe it or not, we’re on the same side here, at least about the essentials.
“The really conservative churches are so isolated, as though they are afraid to come out and face the world. And the more liberal churches are so backwards that the women (who often lead) are sending mixed messages to their girls.”
I’m not sure if all of the conservative ones are that isolated (locked away like in a cult-like compound or something), but they do keep their young women and men in control. A woman (and man) should be able to expect that if they date within the church, they won’t be pressured into premarital sex, which is a weight off of their mind. Trying to date outside of the church means that they will be laughed at like they are freaks, so they are not as comfortable doing that. I think that’s understandable.
“You’ve got women who teach girls these mixed messages, yet men continue get the blame for treating these women as “equals” when it comes to the ability to decide to have sex.”
Our whole society is corrupt and both men and women are teaching this message. Women are saying it’s okay to “go with it” and men are enjoying the free, easy sex and don’t want to give it up.
“Women can’t have it both ways.”
True, and neither can men. She can’t have free and easy sex without it taking a toll on her. He can’t have free and easy sex without it taking a toll on her. If she “shouldn’t” have free and easy sex, then he should not have anyone to have free and easy sex with. It all boils down to the same thing: Free and easy sex is not a good thing.
“Either they need to be able to take ownership of their sexuality or go back to a system where a woman’s sexuality was essentially managed by someone else; chaperones, arranged marriage, zero premarital sex and Biblical
marriage and divorce law. What is it that you ladies want?”
I think churches like mine mostly have it right. (Probably churches like the one Bloom refers to do it much better.) Women and men are held to the same high moral standard when it comes to sexuality. Marriages are encouraged within the church so that both husband and wife are on the same page. Divorce is a scandal and only acceptable if there is infidelity or some sort of obvious abuse (and even then it can still be scandalous).
Religious faith can be more successful in controlling sexual impulses if people love God and want to be obedient. Without that religious framework, I don’t know how well we can control it.
‘Women can’t have it both ways. Either they need to be able to take ownership of their sexuality or go back to a system where a woman’s sexuality was essentially managed by someone else; chaperones, arranged marriage, zero premarital sex and Biblical
marriage and divorce law. What is it that you ladies want? ‘
I think these times have proven that most women can’t take ownership of their sexuality. The harm of causal sex is always worse for women (and yet they are being fooled into thinking it empowers them). Things worked better in the second option you’ve presented. There were still some women who decided on the carousel…but the numbers were nothing like what is going on now.
What Sue is saying is correct…if women weren’t giving out causal sex so easily, men wouldn’t be having causal sex so easily.
Sue… these women know what they’re doing.
When I was in high school and also then in college, it was SO uncool to not be having sex. It was not that the girls were the victims… if anything I saw the guys more as victims in various ways.
This is a GREAT Walsh article (he’s on a roll recently!) talking about how they only feel like a victim AFTER the fact… but they want it first.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/25928/walsh-you-feel-violated-after-casual-sex-because-matt-walsh#
Women who get involved in undefined or poorly defined sexual relationships hoping they will “maybe” go somewhere or turn into something are setting themselves up for repeated and needless pain.
agree with this. But I’ve never understood this mindset women say they have, that “if I have sex with him, he will love me and he will marry me. I want to be a wife and a mother, and the way I can get this hot guy is to have sex with him right now.”
I don’t think that’s the mindset at all. I don’t think women are being honest about this.
I think what’s really going on is
“woman with no restraints and no reason to constrain herself wants to have hot fun sexy sex with hot fun sexy men, with no strings and no commitments so if it doesn’t work out we can move on and because I don’t want to be tied down or held accountable to anyone.”
It’d actually be much more palatable to most men, I think, if women would just not lie about this. If women would simply admit that that’s what they want (because that’s what their actions reveal they want), we’d all be clearer about what’s going on.
Every woman I have ever talked to about her sexual past (and there have been a lot) admits to having at least one one night stand, where she just threw caution to the wind and went ahead and had sex with that hot guy. Most of the time she says at least for her the sex was “meh” at best. And yet they keep doing this, over and over and over again.
So folks will have to forgive me for calling bullshit on this “I just want to be a wife and a mommy and that’s why I let 15 guys plow me in the hopes that one of them would fall to his knees with a ring.” I don’t buy it.
It’s sad to see those people’s lives play out, too, who thought it was ok and the women who plowed through a bunch of guys back then.
But they wanted and chose that. Just like some men who didn’t value saving sex for marriage, married sluts and then paid the price of that. People make choices and then they have to live with them for decades afterward.
“It’d actually be much more palatable to most men, I think, if women would just not lie about this. If women would simply admit that that’s what they want (because that’s what their actions reveal they want), we’d all be clearer about what’s going on.”
Women can’t admit it that way because then they’d be admitting that they’re slutty and whorish. Maybe some men would still want to marry them (which is always their “End Goal” of the game of life for women), but MOST good men will avoid them like the plague if they knew that women actually WANTED to be that slutty.
I don’t know… what I was told growing up (constantly… like so many times it was ingrained!!!) was that :
“If you dress like that you’ll scare the good men away…”
“If you act/talk like that you’ll scare the good men away…”
“You want a GOOD man that will love you, not someone who will use you for sex… ”
I think if you raise a girl hearing those thigns ALL the time, it really does impact how she sees herself, her actions, and understands that certain things will make it less likely for “good” men to want her, or more so.
Most of the time she says at least for her the sex was “meh” at best. And yet they keep doing this, over and over and over again.
i’ve heard this, too, and wonder why they keep doing it. never made sense to me.
@ Dad:
It’s indicative of a fundamental problem, that women may not be completely communicating their lack of interest and are going along and regretting it later. ….men are being blamed for simply not “knowing” what a woman wants or doesn’t want
Agree with this.
young women are getting wrong / no advice on how to handle their dating and sexuality. …. Women are not being programmed to deal with men, anymore than men are being programmed to correctly deal with women..
I am not sure I agree with this. Women are getting lots of advice on how to handle dating and sexuality. They understand men very well, what men want, what men like, and what men are attracted to. They understand attraction, how it works, and what they like and don’t like in men. They also understand very well what men are alpha f*cks and that very different men are beta bucks. Women are being programmed very well how to deal with men.
What’s going on is that women are passing off their accountability and responsibility. This is the hallmark of the immature female. If something goes wrong, it is always someone else’s fault. If she had bad sex, it’s the man’s fault. If he didn’t know what I wanted, it’s his fault for not reading my mind. If there was a misunderstanding about what I wanted sexually, it’s his fault for not asking me. If I was sexually uncomfortable, it’s his fault for not stopping and for not “checking in” with me and for not asking permission.
I think women very well understand what’s going on. They’re consciously shirking accountability and responsibility. This is one reason why women are putting off marriage for as long as they possibly can. When you get into a one-on-one relationship, you’re accountable to that other person for what you say and do. You’re responsible for that other person to pull your own weight. It’s not that women aren’t being taught or trained how to do that. It’s not that women don’t know how to do that. It’s that they don’t want to do that.
And it’s also that the men in the relationships with them are legally restrained from holding them accountable and making them responsible.
It’s also that no one can hold them accountable or responsible, and no one wants to expend the effort to do so.
Maybe some men would still want to marry them (which is always their “End Goal” of the game of life for women), but MOST good men will avoid them like the plague if they knew that women actually WANTED to be that slutty.
It’s the base nature of women to want to be sluts. All legal, cultural and moral restraints have been removed so there’s nothing stopping any woman from having sex whenever she wants with whomever she wants, other than her own self-imposed restraints.
You’ve revealed what’s been happening. Women have assiduously concealed this part of their nature from most men, with the complicity of all of the rest of society. If any man says publicly any of what I’ve said in the comboxes here, he’s publicly eviscerated and excoriated, fired from his job, kicked out of his church, etc.
If marriage is the end goal for women, for many it’s considered only as an afterthought, something to get done only after she’s sampled as many men as she can.
So folks will have to forgive me for calling bullshit on this “I just want to be a wife and a mommy and that’s why I let 15 guys plow me in the hopes that one of them would fall to his knees with a ring.” I don’t buy it.
There is probably a bit of truth to this, it is not totally the hamster speaking. It is kind of like buying a lottery ticket, but with “fun” attached
“It’s the base nature of women to want to be sluts.”
I think you’re right in a way, but they want it with safety and assurance that it’s going to work out well for them in the end. Like FarmBoy’s “amusement park” post.
Steph:
Yes, they want to have lots of hot fun sexy sex. And they want men to make it safe for them to do so. She wants to have it both ways. And she doesn’t get to.
All the fun, none of the responsibility or accountability. She gets to go to the party on his dime.
The “amusement park” metaphor was Dalrock with Farm Boy using it and repeating it. Im not surprised he did, because it’s one of the best illustrations I’ve seen of how women approach life.
Oh ok… Dalrock then.
It’s like this….
Here it is again for those interested
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2016/02/12/the-amusement-park-lament/
You know…..
Until it ends this way
Steph – it’s like a drug they can’t kick … and these videos make it so enticing to young girls 😦
it’s an enticing, addictive tragedy.
A Dad,
I believe Sue is indicating women need to take responsibility and understand cause and effect. She is also saying the men need to do the same.
At least that is my take.
Sue:
Women are saying it’s okay to “go with it” and men are enjoying the free, easy sex and don’t want to give it up.
No. SOME men are enjoying free easy sex. MOST men are not getting free easy sex, or any sex at all. Women are the ones who are getting free easy sex (and other bennies) and it is women, not men, who don’t want to give it up. It is women, not men, who are driving the sexual marketplace right now.
She can’t have free and easy sex without it taking a toll on her. He can’t have free and easy sex without it taking a toll on her. If she “shouldn’t” have free and easy sex, then he should not have anyone to have free and easy sex with. It all boils down to the same thing: Free and easy sex is not a good thing.
No. Men are not responsible for any harm that casual sex inflicts on women. A woman who engages in casual sex is responsible for any harm resulting to her from it. This is little more than an attempt to absolve women of accountability for their own actions and to hold men accountable for them.
It is not men’s fault that women are getting harmed by casual sex. It is not men’s responsibility to shield women from harm caused by casual sex. It is not men’s responsibility to make sure women are getting what they want from sex, casual or otherwise.
‘All women should be Most of the time she says at least for her the sex was “meh” at best. And yet they keep doing this, over and over and over again. ‘
Ron White did a bit where a woman shouted out how bad the men were at that. You’d think after the 100th time you’d say….maybe it’s me.
Women know exactly how to deal with men, and all of the changes to the legal, criminal, administrative and social realms accomplished since 2nd Wave Feminism reveal this: the environment now codifies the notion that women will do what they want, when they want, for any reason whatsoever, and others (men) will pay for it.
That’s why we’re now in the endgame: where women like the bimbo in the Ansari case can destroy someone whimsically, because he didn’t realize by going home with him, stripping, and blowing him actually meant, “Leave me alone.” There’s really very little left to gain other than for women to unilaterally write the rules and change them at will. Rollo’s Two Sets of Books trope will become Obviously, Two Sets of Books.
On one cheering twitter feed about Ansari, I read one comment: “Little men, don’t worry that you don’t understand consent. Just wait until we tell you what to do.”
That’s the end state being sought, and #metoo is turn 4 and they’re in the homestretch.
Sue: women who unilaterally choose restaurants for dinner, where the food is alleged to be bad, hurt themselves.
But this is also the restaurants’ fault. They should have known that the women who chose to buy their food need to be protected from their own decisions, and refused service.
BV:
Law, culture and society have changed to accommodate and codify how women naturally deal with men. Women do know exactly how to deal with men, and they have demanded – quite successfully – that law, culture and society change so that how they naturally deal with men is permitted and encouraged.
And how women deal with men is “I do what I want, when and where I want, with whom I want. And I am not responsible for it, and I am accountable to no one for it. Men are responsible to make it all safe for me to do those things. Men are responsible for me. Men are accountable to me. And men have to pay the costs for it. When I want sex, he must give me sex. When I want money, he must give it to me. When I want a relationship or marriage, he must give them to me.”
ANother thought:
Women know how to “deal with” men. Women know how to “handle” men.
But women do not know how to have relationships with men, how to compromise with men, how to do a give-and-take with men, or how to like men and get to know them. Women do not seem to understand, nor even care, what men need in their relationships. Women do not seem to understand men’s nature or what they are like.
“No. SOME men are enjoying free easy sex. MOST men are not getting free easy sex, or any sex at all.”
True, many men would have more casual sex if they could. Some want any sex but aren’t getting it. But the ones who are getting the free and easy sex aren’t going to want to give it up, are they? Am I mistaken when I frequently read about men who won’t date a woman if she doesn’t put out on the third date? That’s not a thing?
That’s a major reason why members of my church shouldn’t date outside the church. They don’t want to be faced with the assumption that they must be willing to give it up so soon (or at all, before marriage). Men and women are subject to this pressure. (Men who want to avoid premarital sex have it much worse and are thought of as freaks by the world. Tim Tebow is constantly mocked for his conviction to wait for marriage, last I heard.) They are much better off dating other people who share their faith and convictions.
“No. Men are not responsible for any harm that casual sex inflicts on women.”
If that’s the case, let’s all “use” each other with no blame or repercussions.
It’s nothing to me either way because I don’t intend to be “used” or to “use” anyone else.
I don’t blame men who think that women are okay with casual sex and can handle it. Most men AND women think that way these days. It’s sad how our society has been brainwashed.
I don’t think it’s morally right when women “use” men (string the men along when they know they aren’t going to get into a relationship), nor do I think it’s morally right when men “use” women (knowing it’s hurting them but doing it anyway because they like the casual sex).
The best way for women to avoid this is to not engage in ANY casual sex at all. It’s our best defense against heartbreak, and it would stop this feeling of entitlement that some men have. (That she must put out by the third date.) What a load of baloney that is!
“Little men, don’t worry that you don’t understand consent. Just wait until we tell you what to do.”
And then change our minds after the fact because the all powerful tingle wasnt there.
Ladies…if you consent to ruin your dignity…and going to a guy’s apartment after a first date, strip, and do sex acts three times is a slam dunk under that…that’s on you, not the guy who couldn’t bring about the tingle.
An example of Obviously, Two Sets of Books:
“The course is ultimately presented as a study in “feminist masculinity” that seeks to explain how ideas about masculinity “simultaneously harm yet privilege” men, the syllabus states.”
Book #1: men are damaged, delusional victims
Book #2: This gives them undue privilege as abusers, and we women must end this.
Victim, shitlord, victim, shitlord: get with the program people.
This is a real course at Ohio State.
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/40991/
Sue:
All you’re doing here is blaming men.
The reason casual sex is a thing is because women want it with attractive men.
If women didn’t want casual sex, there would be no casual sex. Casual sex would stop TOMORROW if women en masse stopped having it. Men can’t make women have casual sex. Men can’t make women have sex with them short of rape, and that happens very rarely.
“No. Men are not responsible for any harm that casual sex inflicts on women.”
If that’s the case, let’s all “use” each other with no blame or repercussions.
Your statement doesn’t follow. The fact of the matter is that if there is any harm to women because of casual sex, that is on the women having it, not on the men having it. It’s hard for you to hear, but…. I am not my sister’s keeper. She’s a big girl, and if she decides to give it up, any harm that results is on her, not on the men she decides to give it up to.
It doesn’t matter whether men think women can handle casual sex or not. All that matters is whether women make that decision, and many of them do, and when it goes south that is not men’s fault.
feeling of entitlement that some men have.
Strawman.
But, if a woman has had casual sex with a man before, she doesn’t get to come to a beta bux guy and make him wait. The purpose of the three date rule is to gauge her sexual attraction to you. If she’s holding out, she’s not sexually attracted to you, and you need to move on. That’s a rule that has resulted not from male “entitlement”, but from women’s en masse decision to have premarital sex.
You don’t get to give it up to Studly McAlpha, and then make Ernie Engineer wait. You don’t get to make Ernie pay full price while giving it away to Studly for free.
The reason casual sex is a thing is because women want it with attractive men.
Say “no” women always can
The law backs them on this it does
Still, somehow men still exploit them they do
No. Men are not responsible for any harm that casual sex inflicts on women.”
If that’s the case, let’s all “use” each other with no blame or repercussions.
Makes as much sense as a screen door in a Star Destroyer airlock this does
I believe Sue is indicating women need to take responsibility
Clouded this thought is
Instead of examining Sue’s latest demonstration of female projection, I decided to simply count the number of strawmen, red herrings, and non sequitors. However, I realized she probably doesn’t know what those words mean. (Otherwise, why the super-awesome demonstration of each?)
I mentioned C.S. Lewis and Hell the other day. Turns out Hell is not just other people, as Sartre articulated in “Huis Clos”. Hell is also social media. I think I will have wine with lunch.
“We must picture hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives with the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment.”
–C.S. Lewis
Yoda, pointing this out is challenging — about as challenging as (to quote Jacques Barzun) ‘fighting one’s way through an open door with both fists.’ We must not be bitter, damaged clingers and learn to listen better.
feeling of entitlement that some men have.
The concept of “entitlement prince” I have encountered not.
OTOH, the concept of “entitlement princess” a thing it is
“All you’re doing here is blaming men.”
If I am, then all you’re doing is blaming women. It takes two to tango.
“The reason casual sex is a thing is because women want it with attractive men.”
Agree and disagree. Yes, many women are extremely foolish and have lost their moral compass. Disagree because there’s a lot of pressure put on women (by other women AND by men) to give it up too soon.
“Men can’t make women have sex with them short of rape, and that happens very rarely.”
Of course, that’s why I say that women should stop having casual sex because that means casual sex would stop. That would be the best thing for everyone. Men who have enjoyed casual sex would stop getting it. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.
“Your statement doesn’t follow. The fact of the matter is that if there is any harm to women because of casual sex, that is on the women having it, not on the men having it. It’s hard for you to hear, but…. I am not my sister’s keeper.”
Then I’m not my brother’s keeper, and if I want to string him along, no one is forcing him to stick around, are they? No harm, no foul. No. It’s not right to do that to someone else.
“It doesn’t matter whether men think women can handle casual sex or not. All that matters is whether women make that decision, and many of them do, and when it goes south that is not men’s fault.”
So then, it doesn’t matter if the woman knows the man is hoping for a relationship, as long as she strings him along and he sticks around, she’s not doing anything wrong.
I wouldn’t do that to a man on purpose. It’s not honorable.
“Strawman.”
No strawman. That’s how it is.
“But, if a woman has had casual sex with a man before, she doesn’t get to come to a beta bux guy and make him wait.”
Sure she can, and she should. Every woman should stop putting out too soon right now. It doesn’t matter if she gave it up all the time before, she should still stop doing it. She should consistently refuse to have sex with any man.
Otherwise, you’re saying that once she has made the foolish, stupid mistake of putting out too soon, that she is forever locked into doing that and “owes” it to men to keep putting out.
That is a load of baloney.
As long as she refuses any man (not cherry picks which men to refuse) then she is perfectly justified in thinking it’s baloney. Because it is total baloney.
“The purpose of the three date rule is to gauge her sexual attraction to you.”
And this is why women of my church should never date a man outside of the church.
“You don’t get to give it up to Studly McAlpha, and then make Ernie Engineer wait. You don’t get to make Ernie pay full price while giving it away to Studly for free.”
If that were the case, no virginal girl would be pressured to have sex. That’s why women in conservative churches should never date men who do not share their beliefs. There will be men who feel pressure her incessantly to have sex, tell her she’s abnormal (other women will also pressure her and tell her she’s a freak). This isn’t a thing that happens? It happens all the time.
Bitter I am not.
Amused I am
Apparently responsible for one’s decisions one is not.
The three-date rule is already an anachronism. The female support for the star-fucking bimbo in Ansarigate reveals that women think it is completely normal to get down on date #1 if the guy is a “catch” or, whatever, you’re horny.
I’d say the algorithm now is binary. X=1 /or X=whenever, but you’re buying dinner.
Because she tingled not,
Guilty Ansari is
Ooops. I was projecting my damaged, bitter self on you, Yoda! Apologies.
(Also I didn’t hit the /sarcasm key. Typing has become an adventure and I have trouble controlling my left hand. But it’s been so much fun to read another woman explain red pill as a form of childish compensation for my male immaturity.)
Sue:
I’m not “blaming” women. I am placing accountability and responsibility where it should be. Women are responsible for having casual sex. They are responsible for all the consequences that flow from that decision.
Men pressure women for sex. It has always been this way and it will always be this way. Women make the final decision. If women are as “strong and independent” as people say, they should have no problem bearing up under that pressure. Any woman worth her salt knows how to decline, firmly and finally, sex she doesn’t want.
If a woman is unable or unwilling to say “no” to sex she doesn’t want to have, then she is not mature enough to be in public alone, or with a man alone. She is not mature enough to date. She needs to grow up.
You’re correct that you’re not your brother’s keeper. It’s not right for a woman to string a guy along and use him for resources, but in today’s day and age, if a woman is doing that to him, that’s on him. He’s a big boy and he needs to own his shit. Just like women need to.
Otherwise, you’re saying that once she has made the foolish, stupid mistake of putting out too soon, that she is forever locked into doing that and “owes” it to men to keep putting out.
No, what I’m saying is that she has set her value by putting out too soon. She can have sex, or not, with any man she wants. And men are free to reject her for not putting out. And they should. Ernie shouldn’t wait and pay for what Studly got right away and for free. And she doesn’t get to change lanes and start declaring herself high value when she isn’t.
Perhaps she should have thought about the consequences of casual sex BEFORE she made the decisions to have it. She doesn’t get to go back and act like it never happened. She must bear the consequnces for it. ALL The consequences.
Sue useful in showing how many women think she is.
Thank her for this we should
Yeah, Yoda, he’s a scrawny little soyboy, a realization that occurred to her, perhaps, when she dropped her clothing to the floor. So she gave him a couple of blowjobs. Cognitive dissonance — actively hallucinating — must have presented a very interesting face to observe.
You mean “… do not think she is.”
Ladies:
You know why men pressure women for sex? Because for most of us, if we didn’t apply pressure, we’d never get any.
For us men, no one gives us anything. No one just comes by and drops food, money, booze, jobs, or pussy in our laps. If we want something, we have to work for it. We have to go get it. We have to ask for it or take it.
So it is with women. We see one we want, we approach, we ask, we offer, we express interest, we escalate, we take. We HAVE to do it this way. If I sat back and just waited around, I’d never have gotten any. And I bang my head against a wall when I think about how much more I could have gotten had I done more asking, work, escalation and taking. How many green lights I was given while I just sat at the intersection. How many green lights I missed. How many open windows I wouldn’t step through.
“I am placing accountability and responsibility where it should be. Women are responsible for having casual sex. They are responsible for all the consequences that flow from that decision.”
It takes two to tango. I agree that women should be responsible for their decisions. They shouldn’t be foolish. Many are.
But it takes two to have casual sex. An unattractive woman can’t make any man have casual sex with her. He has to make that decision too. It takes two to tango.
I believe casual sex is morally wrong, and both people who are doing something wrong when they engage in it.
Do you think casual sex is wrong, or only wrong when women do it? In other words, when two engage in casual sex, she’s doing something wrong but he isn’t? Is she the only one doing something “sinful” (if we judge using Christian moral values)?
“Men pressure women for sex. It has always been this way and it will always be this way.”
This is doubletalk. First, you’re saying that men have the three date rule because women are giving it up to Mr. McStudly but refusing Joe Beta, and when I point out that men will have pressure virgins to have sex, obviously there’s no Studly the girl was sleeping with before. But she’ll still get bumped after the third date if she doesn’t put out.
Which is his right. But don’t say it’s only because she’s been banging Studly, and is cherry-picking which guys to bang, because if he’s going to do this to any woman (including virgins) then clearly he just feels entitled to get laid after the third date.
What this pressure and expectation on women means is that women who won’t put out will rarely date or won’t date at all. Which is a price that I think the women should be willing to pay, rather than date men who would have such an expectation. (Better yet, they should never date outside of their church, ever. These men who pressure them even knowing they are virgins clearly do not care about them.)
“If a woman is unable or unwilling to say “no” to sex she doesn’t want to have, then she is not mature enough to be in public alone, or with a man alone. She is not mature enough to date. She needs to grow up.”
She should never fold to pressure, but in today’s climate, she will rarely or never date. Which is fine; she shouldn’t lower her standards for men who don’t value her.
“You’re correct that you’re not your brother’s keeper. It’s not right for a woman to string a guy along and use him for resources, but in today’s day and age, if a woman is doing that to him, that’s on him.”
No, it’s on her too. It’s not a right thing to do. I think less of a woman who does that. Just as I think less of a man who pressures girls to have sex when they are reluctant to do so.
“He’s a big boy and he needs to own his shit. Just like women need to.”
True, he needs to walk away from a woman who is stringing him along. But that doesn’t mean that she’s not doing something wrong. Just like it doesn’t mean the man isn’t doing something wrong when he pressures women and uses them for sex.
“And she doesn’t get to change lanes and start declaring herself high value when she isn’t.”
If she reforms and decides that she’s ‘worth more than that’ then she CAN change lanes at any time. She is worth more than that. Anyone is. Everyone is. Anyone can reform, repent of their old ways and turn over a new leaf. What she needs to do is be consistent in refusing and know that she is worth more and stick to her guns. She may not date very much because men will still feel entitled and will still pressure her, but she should refuse for her own sake, for her own self-worth.
“Perhaps she should have thought about the consequences of casual sex BEFORE she made the decisions to have it.”
Everyone makes mistakes and can be redeemed. Sure, she will bear the consequences of that, often from men who feel entitled (and some who may have had plenty of casual sex themselves). The sooner she starts refusing casual sex and keeps away from such men who don’t care about her, the better off she is.
The hamster strong in this one it is
“You know why men pressure women for sex? Because for most of us, if we didn’t apply pressure, we’d never get any.”
How much would you pressure a reluctant virgin who stated she was saving herself for marriage? Serious question.
@deti
She did say this earlier…this is the part I agreed with.
‘Of course, that’s why I say that women should stop having casual sex because that means casual sex would stop. That would be the best thing for everyone. Men who have enjoyed casual sex would stop getting it. That’s what I’ve been saying all along.’
Sounds to me like she’s placing the accountablity and responsibility of causal sex on women.
What I get sick and tired of is women having the predictable reaction to a casual sex encounter they often initated either through non verbal cues or flat out saying they want it and think it’s the man’s fault these feelings (they were uncomfortable, they felt regret, they felt used) happened. Anything less than euphoria should mean the man gets punished. No, that’s what happens to a woman when she engages in a casual sexual encounter with a man she doesn’t know…women have no clue their emotional reaction to casual sex. Grace’s reaction IS the norm…even if it is consensual.
Save that encounter for only your husband and say no to any guy who doesn’t propose that and go through with it if he’s pushing for sex…and you won’t have the predictable reaction of guilt, shame, regret, etc…because you are married to him.
But it takes two to have casual sex. An unattractive woman can’t make any man have casual sex with her. He has to make that decision too.
The final decision rests with her. The woman ALWAYS decides whether sex happens. It’s on HER. There would never be any casual sex, ever, if women decided not to have it. Casual sex is a thing because women want it.
This is doubletalk.
This and everything in the paragraphs that follow is nonsense. None of this follows from the biological fact that men pressure women to have sex. The more you persist in denying this fact, the less you will understand how it all works, and the less you understand reality. We cannot change the fact that men pressure women for sex. This is actually a good thing because it propagates the species. If we didn’t have women for sex, we probably wouldn’t bother with them.
Do you think casual sex is wrong, or only wrong when women do it?
Whether casual sex is morally wrong is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. It very well might be morally wrong, and it is morally wrong if we’re looking at it from a Christian perspective. The fact remains though that Christians are humans, and have human nature.
No, it’s on her too. It’s not a right thing to do.
If he’s getting strung along and exploited, that’s on him. Today he has no excuse for not knowing because we have the internet and the manosphere now. Whether it’s right or not is irrelevant because most of the world doesn’t share our morality. If you don’t recognize that fact, you too will be exploited. The world will do to you what it will and if you don’t take steps to protect yourself by understanding it, then whatever happens, happens. The world doesn’t care about our morality.
If she reforms and decides that she’s ‘worth more than that’ then she CAN change lanes at any time. She is worth more than that.
In terms of marriage value, she’s worth whatever man will have her. Men decide what her marriage value is. Your marriage market value is whatever the highest value person of the opposite sex willing to commit to you decides it is. Other types of value aren’t relevant to this discussion.
There is no such thing as “male entitlement” to sex. Men aren’t entitled to sex. Women arent’ entitled to commitment. And women don’t get to decide what their value is on the sexual or marriage markets.
I’m going to end the discussion here, because you’re just repeating yourself and making the same points repeatedly, and we’re not going to change each other’s minds. suffice it to say we’ve sussed out each other’s points fully.
earl:
“Sounds to me like she’s placing the accountablity and responsibility of causal sex on women.”
Yes, I realize that it takes two to tango and if SHE refuses, it isn’t happening. I think that all women should start refusing now. Even if she was promiscuous before, she should still refuse and continue to refuse. (Do I think this is going to happen anytime soon? No, but it should happen. It would stop a whole lot of nonsense straight in its tracks.)
I also think that it takes two to tango and that casual sex isn’t a good thing.
Would he be unable to refuse casual sex if the woman offering it was his buddy’s wife? Probably he’d manage to say no. I doubt his buddy would only blame the wife if he found out that the guy consented to the sex. Both parties are responsible for the encounter.
“What I get sick and tired of is women having the predictable reaction to a casual sex encounter they often initated either through non verbal cues or flat out saying they want it and think it’s the man’s fault these feelings (they were uncomfortable, they felt regret, they felt used) happened. Anything less than euphoria should mean the man gets punished..”
Very true. She doesn’t get to regret it later and then blame him for the decision she made.
If I were you, Deti and A Dad, I would just ignore Sue. Tradcon women simply don’t get it. Never have, never will. Just engage Stephanie and the others because they clearly understand the way of things. Right now you’re just wasting time and effort.
“This and everything in the paragraphs that follow is nonsense. None of this follows from the biological fact that men pressure women to have sex.”
Then don’t try to defend the “three date rule” by saying it came about because women were banging the studs but refusing the betas.
Would a good man pressure a virginal girl into sex after she was reluctant? The men I know would not. They would realize that they’d have to marry her first.
“Whether casual sex is morally wrong is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.”
So you’re refusing to answer. I expected that.
“If he’s getting strung along and exploited, that’s on him.”
It still doesn’t make her a good person for doing it. Nor does it make a man a good person if he pressures a reluctant woman into sex. She is ultimately responsible for her answer, but it doesn’t make him a good person for doing that. (Especially if there are–as many of you claim–plenty of women willing to give it away without any pressure!)
“The world will do to you what it will and if you don’t take steps to protect yourself by understanding it, then whatever happens, happens.”
Yes, you have to protect yourself and realize that other people out there don’t care about you and will use you. This is very true for everybody.
“In terms of marriage value, she’s worth whatever man will have her. Men decide what her marriage value is. Your marriage market value is whatever the highest value person of the opposite sex willing to commit to you decides it is.”
I won’t argue with that.
“Other types of value aren’t relevant to this discussion.”
Who says? She has value (as everyone does) and she should refuse casual sex because she is worth more than that, as a person. She may not have the marriage value that she had before, and maybe those are the consequences of her choices. But she should still refuse casual sex and continue to refuse because it’s the right thing for her to do. This whole narrative about where you guys say that she “can’t” refuse because she used to bang the studs? Of course she can refuse and she should consistently refuse any casual encounter.
“And women don’t get to decide what their value is on the sexual or marriage markets.”
I never said they did. I just said that all women (all people) are worth more than casual, meaningless sex and all should refuse to have these encounters, even if they used to consent to them.
“we’re not going to change each other’s minds.”
That’s for sure! Thanks for the discussion! It was interesting.
How much would you pressure a reluctant virgin who stated she was saving herself for marriage? Serious question.
What I would or would not do is not relevant. What is relevant is how resolute the reluctant virgin is in saving herself for marriage. Because it is a fact of life that men who are interested in her, or whom she is interested in, are going to pressure her for sex. And she needs to be prepared to stand against it. Or not date.
The solution is to train women who don’t want to have casual sex, not to have casual sex. You don’t solve the problem by telling men not to pressure women for sex. You might as well tell water not to flow downhill.
I was propositioned by a woman I was dating at that time…I said no and left. Broke it off shortly after. The biggest reason was I saw what happened to a lot of my friends and how their gf turned into tyrants with them after they started doing premaritals. If it wasn’t for the sex I doubt they would of put up with it for so long. The woman I was dating was slowly turning into that and when she did that, it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
I’m just one guy…but it is possible for men to say ‘no’ to a woman who is wanting it. And given how they react and how society and often the courts side with the woman…it’s becoming a good idea to do so.
This whole narrative about where you guys say that she “can’t” refuse because she used to bang the studs?
Strawman. Men dont’ say that. What is said is that she cannot complain she’s viewed as a slut because she used to bang the studs, and she doesn’t get to claim entitlement to the commitment of a good man simply because she makes that good man pay for what she gave the studs for free.
What is also said is, “I’ll have what the studs got to have. If I can’t have that, then good luck to you. I’m not forking over the commitment without getting the goods and I’m not paying full price for bargain bin, discount, damaged goods.”
deti:
“What I would or would not do is not relevant.”
I expected that answer. 😉
“What is relevant is how resolute the reluctant virgin is in saving herself for marriage. Because it is a fact of life that men who are interested in her, or whom she is interested in, are going to pressure her for sex. And she needs to be prepared to stand against it. Or not date.”
You’re right. She needs to be very strong and stick to her guns.
I wouldn’t characterize the men who would pressure a virgin into sex in such neutral terms, however. I question the morals of a man who would continue to pressure a woman who he knows wants to save herself for marriage. He should move out of her life and go find a woman who is more willing. If he continues to pressure her even after he knows how she feels, how she was raised? How smart is that? She will have a lot of baggage and guilt if she gives in.
It would be like pressuring someone to drink alcohol when they have vowed to never drink. Why pressure someone like that? They will feel guilty if they give in (even though it is, of course, their decision to succumb to temptation). Why be a part of that kind of melodrama? Just go find someone who likes to drink and drink with them.
“The solution is to train women who don’t want to have casual sex, not to have casual sex.”
I don’t disagree with this.
“You don’t solve the problem by telling men not to pressure women for sex. You might as well tell water not to flow downhill.”
Some men can be very stupid and selfish in whom they pressure to have sex, for the reasons I’ve just outlined.
earl thomas:
“I was propositioned by a woman I was dating at that time…I said no and left. Broke it off shortly after. The biggest reason was I saw what happened to a lot of my friends and how their gf turned into tyrants with them after they started doing premaritals. If it wasn’t for the sex I doubt they would of put up with it for so long. The woman I was dating was slowly turning into that and when she did that, it was the straw that broke the camel’s back.”
It sounds like you kept your ear to the ground and saw what was coming ahead. It sounds like you were very smart to refuse.
“I’m just one guy…but it is possible for men to say ‘no’ to a woman who is wanting it. And given how they react and how society and often the courts side with the woman…it’s becoming a good idea to do so.”
It sounds like there is much less melodrama all around when you avoid these situations.
Again: Sue, you’re wrong, but we’ll agree to disagree. You aren’t going to change men and cause them to not pressure women for sex. What you need to do is train women not to have casual sex, and to accept the consequences for it when they do.
‘It sounds like there is much less melodrama all around when you avoid these situations.’
There is.
I’m not a fan of drama. I’ve seen plenty of how much drama erupts between non married couples after sex happens…and there would be times it would happen after they broke up.
Everytime a relationship I had broke off…I didn’t have any residual drama. I don’t care if women think they need it to feel like their lives somehow are more exciting…I don’t like it and I don’t think it makes life more exciting. I think it makes it more difficult.
“You aren’t going to change men and cause them to not pressure women for sex.”
Do you mean that men will pressure any woman for sex, regardless of the circumstances? Have they no control over that? I doubt that.
Many men will refuse to pressure an attractive woman to have sex if she’s married or otherwise attached, on moral grounds. I believe men can be capable of backing off and refusing to continue to pressure a woman if they feel it’s the wrong thing to do or if they foresee drama ahead (as in Earl’s example).
Earl: You sound like you make wise decisions and can see ahead and avoid a lot of problems and drama that way.
“Sue… these women know what they’re doing.
When I was in high school and also then in college, it was SO uncool to not be having sex. It was not that the girls were the victims… if anything I saw the guys more as victims in various ways.
This is a GREAT Walsh article (he’s on a roll recently!) talking about how they only feel like a victim AFTER the fact… but they want it first.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/25928/walsh-you-feel-violated-after-casual-sex-because-matt-walsh#”
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Seems like after the Condi Rice comment, all sorts of news outlets actually started writing similar articles / videos to the Walsh one. Most seem to be taking sides with Aziz Ansari now but many of the extreme feminists still are trying to blame him for taking advantage of her even if it was clearly a case of bad date sex that she regretted later.
It appears that maybe #MeToo is starting to run out of steam because people are getting sick of it.
“Do you mean that men will pressure any woman for sex, regardless of the circumstances? Have they no control over that? I doubt that.”
Even I understood what Deti is saying… as a teen virgin. Men, even the good ones, if they’re in a romantic relationship, their sex drives will be extremely strong and yes, they will eventually (if the relationship is long enough) start to push further and further because it feels good (to both partners no matter how pure the girl is).
That’s why Deti is right. GIRLS have to be taught that they are the ultimate gate keepers, no matter how good the man is. He’s going to have a super strong drive to want to push things sexually even if he doesn’t want to.
“I am not sure I agree with this. Women are getting lots of advice on how to handle dating and sexuality. They understand men very well, what men want, what men like, and what men are attracted to. They understand attraction, how it works, and what they like and don’t like in men. They also understand very well what men are alpha f*cks and that very different men are beta bucks. Women are being programmed very well how to deal with men.”
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Fair enough, deti, but I meant it mostly in the respect of stable relationships.
‘It appears that maybe #MeToo is starting to run out of steam because people are getting sick of it.’
I’m getting sick of the regret after bad sex stories being lumped in with legit cases like molesting 10-13 year old girls or what actual rape is. They are substantially different scenerios.
Regret after bad sex is not molestation or rape.
Not saying he can’t control himself (great job Earl!! I hope my sons are like you), but it’s supposed to be a given that their sex drives are A LOT stronger and that they think about sex so much … it’s just easier for a girl to be the gate keeper, as well as put structures in place so that she’s not super tempted (chaperones, curfews, etc.).
Stephanie:
“Even I understood what Deti is saying… as a teen virgin. Men, even the good ones, if they’re in a romantic relationship, their sex drives will be extremely strong and yes, they will eventually (if the relationship is long enough) start to push further and further because it feels good (to both partners no matter how pure the girl is).”
I can understand your explanation and can agree with it, if that’s the situation. As the relationship progresses, they both will get impatient and hormones take over.
There’s a big difference between that and a sexually experienced man dating a virgin, knowing that she wants to save herself for marriage, and pressuring her and pressuring her. He needs to find a girl more compatible with him, not try to “change” a girl who has already stated her intentions to wait until marriage.
I don’t fault a man for stop dating a virginal girl if he wants to have a premarital relationship and he knows she isn’t interested in that. He should stop dating her, the sooner the better. To stick around with the intention of working on her until she gives in? That’s not right.