It’s a controversial topic, submission, but one worth talking about more often because it’s so misunderstood.
When many people hear the word submission today, they often think oppression or abuse. But in reality it’s anything but.
True submission is a CHOICE, not something imposed or forced upon anyone. It’s the choice to follow, not lead.
And it’s not just a female-male thing. Men actually submit to recognizing a hierarchy and following the recognized leader all the time. In the military or at work, for example. Even in casual situations, an AMOG (Alpha man of the group) surfaces and the men all seem to intuitively know where they fit in the order. When they don’t, bad things can happen and AMOG may be established with posturing or even by physical force. Bar fights are an easy example of this.
Women are the ones who seem to struggle with the concept more. Women’s minds seem to function more in a “let’s all be on the same level and all have an equal say” way. This likely comes from a biological place, as in ancient times women most likely lived in villages with the young and the old and other women and things were always a collaboration/negotiation. This approach can be a strength, but not when it comes to recognizing leadership.
I have countless times observed women in a work setting, for example, not getting in step with or openly subverting their team leader or manager rather than recognizing who the leader is and choosing to follow direction. It can cause lots of problems when this happens.
The same can be said in a family. When there is no clear leader, there can be much chaos. The women I know who struggle most or are least happy in their marriages are often also fighting to have equal say or more often to be calling the shots.
If you had asked me in my youth, when I was blue pill, I likely would have argued that marriage should be 50/50 and all should have a say and so on. I believed that in my own marriage and many times actively went against my now ex-husband in decisions on finances or other matters. And you know what? Looking back I can see he was right and had I listened we (and I) would have been ahead had I gone along rather than fought for my own way. There were many cringeworthy moments.
For example, at one job I got 1000 stock options for $1 each. At one point they were worth over $100 each. My husband advised I cash out. I refused, believing it would go higher. Within a week they were at $45 a share. He advised I sell, as it was dropping fast. I refused. I held those darn options right down to $4 a share. To his credit he never rubbed that in my face. But how I wish I had just listened, chosen to follow. It was foolish pride on my part. I would have been far better off to listen. (Eventually after my divorce I sold them for around $12 a share. Later they finally went to up to $45 again. Sigh. But anyway…)
The above is just one example, but I have learned. In my current relationship I refuse to fight for the lead. I choose to follow. I choose someone I knew I could safely follow. He’s a good man and he’s made a lifetime of good choices. I trust his opinion and advice. I am smart but he’s much smarter. I recognize this and see going with it is in my advantage. He’s not forcing me to, in fact he’s always willing to hear me out, and still I am choosing to cede the lead. It’s working out really well. It’s by far the least drama relationship I’ve ever had, and I like it.
In short, choosing to follow can be a good thing and fighting the lead can be costly. It’s a mistake only YOU can choose not to make.
What do you think? Please share in the comments!
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
sounds like a healthy relationship. 50/50 never works.
‘When many people hear the word submission today, they often think oppression or abuse. But in reality it’s anything but.’
It really is the twisting of terms…rebellion (especially rebelling against God) is often the cause of oppression and abuse.
‘Women’s minds seem to function more in a “let’s all be on the same level and all have an equal say” way.’
Let’s all be vice presidents!
I do notice things go better for me if I listen to my father and bosses. Trying to irritate those in authority isn’t something that goes well in the long run.
True Earl. It seems tho we are increasingly living in a society that doesn’t recognize or outright despises authority of any kind. Everyone wants to be the leader! Individualism run amok? I am not sure where it comes from but it’s not good, it’s anarchy.
‘Everyone wants to be the leader! ‘
But they don’t want the responsibilities that come with it. Just blame someone else. That’s the bigger problem.
Yes responsibility is part of being the leader. Submission cedes both leadership and responsibility to a higher authority. It can be very freeing actually.
My former babysitter and the women in her Amish type faith get this. They can’t understand why a woman would want to take on the “burdens” of the mans role, like making the money, paying the bills, slaying the dragons. I think they are smarty to see the “price” of being in charge not just the supposed “perks.”
Oops smart not smarty. Lol.
My relationship goes smoothly when we both understand our strengths and weaknesses and lead / follow accordingly. Sometimes I lead, sometimes he does, depending on the situation.
Absolutely RPG. Who thought it was a brilliant idea for women to pay bills, slay dragons, and cook and clean??? It was a role I never wanted, yet I’m expected to be grateful for it?
Exactly Love, I remember thinking that long before I was red pill, women only ADDED to their load w feminism. Now most are expected to BOTH work and run the home. Or more accurately both people work and nobody is really running the home beyond bare necessity.
@ Ash yes, I am not saying women are incapable or that the man ALWAYS is better managing the finances, etc. Of course it makes sense each person contributes their strengths. That is different than what I am talking about. But the two are often confused.
Yes I must’ve drawn the short stick when feminism was passing out its benefits
@ Love and as more and more guys opt out of marriage altogether in favor of MTGOW or some form of ongoing relationship minus cohabitation or marriage at all, more and more women will find themselves living and doing it all alone.
I think a big reason submission got such a bad rap is that in some cases it really was oppression or abuse. Somehow that became it was ALWAYS bad. But as I have seen from watching my babysitter’s community, it actually can work really beautifully and everyone’s needs get met and she runs the home sphere and he slays the dragons/earns the living, and it works. Of course they have a whole community supporting men being the man and women being the woman, as well as lots of extended family support. I think a couple living that way in the general culture would likely get the opposite — pressured to conform to the “modern” way and treated like oddities. I know many stay at home moms I know face constant pressure to “do something more” with their life by outsiders and feel they have to constantly explain their choices.
In short women are more supported NOT to submit and live a traditional life than to do so, in our culture at large. Starting at a very young age. Many have never seen anything but.
Not 100% sure. I have two feelings on this:
(1) women still want a guy that can submit them, but by making themselves stronger, they make it such that only a truly strong man can submit them, or their profession/travels/empowerment exposes them to more elite men.
(2) women never subvert a worthy man. Men will follow an unworthy man, out of respect for the system, but women can’t bring themselves to respect a weak guy.
@ ohiostater, welcome! Yes I can see what you are saying. And that’s another issue, many men are taught from a young age NOT to be strong/masculine/etc. Both are sold the equality thing, and are urged to move to the middle rather than specialize roles. And we have lots of Alpha women and meek men rather than the opposite.
Let’s all be vice presidents!
Yes, all follow the Pence Rule they should
Should “The OhioStater” it not be?
‘And we have lots of Alpha women and meek men rather than the opposite.’
That’s a woman’s idea of ‘equality’.
‘women never subvert a worthy man.’
Who was more worthy than Adam or God? Yet that still happened.
A funny thing happens when being led by tingles get involved…things like ‘worthiness’ suddenly get forgotten.
That is a good point, Earl…
Also, just some questions aimed at nobody in particular, just riffing on this in general… what is a worthy man? Is that based on a woman’s feelings in the moment? A measurable and known standard? Can that change over time and if so what then? Who and what determines worthiness? What if the man becomes sick or is unable to work? Is once worthy always worthy, or is it day by day and situational? What are the requirements of the woman to deserve a worthy man? What makes a woman worthy? Etc.
Some of these questions may not have answers, or answers vary by person. Then?
No fault divorce and other shifting social norms have created a much less known situation vs. the old: you make your pick and you stick it out till death do you part, for better or worse, richer or poorer, etc. Saying, “I do” meant they found each other worthy and except in cases where a judge ruled there was just cause, including proof, for divorce, that was it.
And whoops, sorry for the moniker typo if so.
what is a worthy man?
One who makes the vagina tingle
Is that based on a woman’s feelings in the moment?
Ya damn skippy!
A measurable and known standard?
Vagina tingles
Can that change over time and if so what then?
Yes, when she gets bored, then moves on to the next guy who makes Vagina Tingle.
Who and what determines worthiness?
Vagina Tingle
What if the man becomes sick or is unable to work?
Vagina Tingle
Is once worthy always worthy, or is it day by day and situational?
As long as vagina tingles
What are the requirements of the woman to deserve a worthy man?
Look good, Cook good, clean good, fuck good and then some.
What makes a woman worthy? Etc.
redundant, question is redundant.
Vagina Tingle sounds like a James Bond love interest.
Now that you mention it, yeah it does.
oookay, RPG…I would like to hear what you think a “worthy woman” is..You asked the questions, yes? And just not generalities, be specific, k? Are YOU a worthy woman?
Good boobs a woman should have
@ Larry G I am sure I have done posts on that topic, and it’s totally fair IMHO to put the same “worthy” requirement to women. I will see what I can find as its a lot to put in a comment. GLA’s list is a good one, as is Deti’s be pleasant, be attractive, be available (I am paraphrasing as I don’t think those are his exact words) and I would add be loyal and don’t be drama and I could go on and on. I am sure I have multiple posts on this…
Am *I* worthy? Well I would say at times I probably was not, as there was a lot I didn’t get for a long time. I have made my errors. The RP has helped me learn a lot, and to remember it’s as much (or more as its all I can control) about being my best as it is expecting it from my mate. I suspect only my guy could truly answer, but he has not led me to believe he finds me unworthy so that’s a good thing! Even all I know I have my moments, awalt and all that, and so I suppose all I can say is I am trying and aware, more than ever before, so hopefully it counts in the plus column.
I think in any relationship a measure of Grace and a short memory for grudges is a big plus.
Am
Sadly GLA that is the measure many women today use. Kind of a fickle and precarious thing to base life choices on, I’d say. Tingles alone have led many a woman to her doom…
At least in the Christian community, this entire conversation can be avoided if we simply ask: whose vision or agenda is supposed to be supported? That of the help? Or that of the helped? Who did God create to be the help? Who did God create to be the helped? How can one be the help if they are insisting that it is their vision that should be persued? How can anyone be a help if they don’t first accept the requests of the helped and give them what they ask for on the journey to realizing their vision / agenda? And how can one be a useful and proper help if they don’t know anything, if they can’t do anything?
Speaking in terms of help and helped allows us to understand the reality that, for a help to be of any use, they must possess a certain level of knowledge and skills. Acknowledging that gets rid of the doormat issue as well.
@rpg: ” Of course they have a whole community supporting men being the man and women being the woman, as well as lots of extended family support.”
It doesn’t really work very well outside of this context.
“Kind of a fickle and precarious thing to base life choices on, I’d say”
Biology is what it is. Most women aren’t all that spiritual/introspective even though they claim to be.
Most women don’t become red pill in their lives until they have lived a significant amount of life or have been through some shit. And if they have the option to double down on blue pill, more often than not, they do. So Bloom, it’s safe to say you weren’t red pill back in your teens and twenties?
*double down on blue pill without immediate consequences.
@ gla, true. And that is the rp in a nutshell right there. It explains. Both why many social conventions and restrictions were created (to protect women from their own doom) and why women want to throw them aside (I do what I want!)
“What if the man becomes sick or is unable to work?”
If vagina is not tingling, she leaves for greener pastures or the illusion of such elsewhere much similar to a War Bride if not part of the same thing.
Gla no I was not. I wish I had been. If I knew then what I know now I would have done entirely different.
Gla I could write posts to the end of time based on your last few comments.you are so right. And I just realized we are so doomed! Oh dear…. the kraken has been unleashed.
gla truly that is terrifying on so many levels.
(hyperventilating in a paper sack)
‘If vagina is not tingling, she leaves for greener pastures or the illusion of such elsewhere much similar to a War Bride if not part of the same thing.’
It’s always an illusion. I think women have a harder time distinguishing between illusions and reality. Hence why they need a man to lead them.
“women never subvert a worthy man. Men will follow an unworthy man, out of respect for the system, but women can’t bring themselves to respect a weak guy.”
Yup.
Had several different lieutenants and captains. Some were good, some newbs, some meh. But they had the order of battle and objectives. “Because he’s the LT thats why.”
HOW we followed orders did vary. We often looked to the first sargent to see how they reacted to the officers orders. We wouldn’t do anything blatanty stupid or we would be selective in our patrols. Sariavo was a hotbed of snipers.
But we always followed the spirit of the orders if not the letter. Because the only way the system works is if everyone was on the same page.
The firsts would minimize the risks to bring you home, the officers would make sure the mission was worth the risks. Period.
And you respected the specialties of your buddies.
I was a heavy gunner, the pack mule. Others were pointmen cause they could smell a trap, medics had this pavlovian deathwish response to dive into the fire if they heard a buddy scream. Some could move fast and quiet to flank.
I could do neither. I was big and slow.
But I could carry a huge ammo load and sure as hell rip up a treeline keeping the bad guys heads down while they did their jobs. Respect the strength of each.
“I define manhood simply
Men should be tough, fair and courageous, never petty, never looking for a fight but never backing down from one either”
John Wayne.
Period.
George. Is right…externally… Tingles.
Internally…John Wayne as above.
And who cares what anyone else thinks about you but you.
They can’t live your life for you.
To You….are You a good man? Thats good enough.
Red pill (and the underpining of mgtow) is living Your life as You see fit in a realistic view of an unfair, chaiotic world.
“I am told they don’t like me….tell them I really don’t care what they think.”
“What if the man becomes sick or is unable to work?”
Also see Brifallt’s Law
* Briffalt’s Law
I value more what God’s worth of me than what a woman’s is or even what I think my worth is. That’s something which never changes.
‘But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him!’ Romans 5:8-9
IF you have multiple ship captains trying to wrestle control of the steering wheel, it is very likely you will either crash or not get where you were trying to go.
People seem to forget that social contracts (like submitting to someone taking the leadership role) developed to HELP us get where we are trying to go. Emphasis on the word “help”.
@earl I know the odds are long but I hope you find the most amazing wife and raise lots of amazing kids and teach them up in the ways of the Lord. 🙂 Goodness knows we need some more folks of that sort!
Indeed Copperfox.
George writes like a toned down version of Great Books For Men. llzozzoollzoozlz. But without the Bernankification or butthexting.
Bloom, it’s:
–Be nice.
–Be pretty.
–Don’t get fat.
–Be available.
All women are Red Pill when it comes to understanding male and female nature, how sexual attraction works, what they like in men, and how to get it.
Most women come to a much fuller Red Pill understanding of intersexual relationships with men when an Event happens. That event could be one of many things, usually the failure of a significant pre-marriage relationship or a divorce, or husband having an affair.
Thanks rpg!
‘George writes like a toned down version of Great Books For Men. llzozzoollzoozlz. But without the Bernankification or butthexting.’
Man I miss those posts about the effects of lotsa cocka. He had the insight to point out the ‘Bernankification’ of promiscuity. Turns the marital act into economics.
I’d put availability to the top of that list. That’s one of my biggest pet peeves with most women I’ve come in contact with.
“I’d put availability to the top of that list. That’s one of my biggest pet peeves with most women I’ve come in contact with.”
Earl, you sound like you’re talking about flakiness, right? I kind of thought Deti was talking about sexual availability (but I could be totally wrong…)?
“Be available” means
–be open to the possibilities around you
— say “yes” to men’s approaches and signs of interest (if you yourself are interested)
–don’t cockblock yourself
–don’t be so busy with all other things that you don’t have time to date (this is a big mistake a lot of girls make. They think it’s “just going to happen” instead of doing things to make it happen and being in places where things happen)
–actively work to put yourself out there in places where you’ll have the chance to meet attractive, suitable men
‘Earl, you sound like you’re talking about flakiness, right?’
Yes
Earl
That’s also a good one. “Be available” includes “don’t flake”, or at least “don’t flake for no good reason”.
Or to say it another way, RPG, freedom is a thing that derives from boundaries, from principles:
“If you would enjoy real freedom, you must be the slave of philosophy.” – Seneca
man cold;
@ deti; people have thought me to be him before. Like GBFM, I am autistic as well, but not as much to the degree as the great lozozozozozlzzzzzer himself.
My list is a little different than Deti’s, but it’s seems to have worked well for me.
1. Be a true friend
2. Be attractive enough
“Ash yes, I am not saying women are incapable or that the man ALWAYS is better managing the finances, etc. Of course it makes sense each person contributes their strengths. That is different than what I am talking about. But the two are often confused.”
I agree with this. I don’t mind following someone else that I know is capable. I prefer it. It’s less stressful. If they listen to my opinion and are trying to do the best for everyone, why fight it?
The only thing that would bother me is if I undeniably was more knowledgeable about a particular thing but they ignored or dismissed my knowledge and refused to take heed to it, because “they’re the boss.” That’s not good leadership.
From a comment in a local paper flipping the pence rule ….boss is female and underling is male.
”
Moreso, if I get called into my VPs office to have a meeting and I ask to leave the door open after she expressedly asked me to close it behind me due to the noise……….
How do you see that going? Think she’ll have a good opinion of me?
Its likely that many women will see that as many women see the calm and mild spoken men on these forms… As horrible bigoted sexist monsters because we are making a point of controlling the situation and unintentionally pushing the shame to them.
Because basically, me asking to leave the door open is me saying I dont trust you to not screw me over in the future.”
Thoughts?
@horseman your explanation above about your time in the service was very apt. I have never been a situation anywhere near that so it helps me understand. I meant to say that earlier.
As for the male employee wanting to leave the door open, I would hope a female boss would get that it’s not about her personally but about recent current events. And it protects her too. But I could see a female boss misread it personally. Maybe see it as
Insubordination or even as a sexist
Of course you have to be a man who is worthy of leading. Be honest, objective, strong, brave and honorable. Be loyal, but not foolish. Get that stuff down and you can delegate or negotiate the other responsibilities. Being born with the right chromosomes doesn’t automatically mean you’re up to the task … but you can choose to be.
For many years I put on a one week long seminar type program. All year the organization was run by two or three VERY female ladies. Lots of emotion, rationalizing, and an utterly flat hierarchy (or lack of it). The women wanted to feel that they were all equal … even though one of them was the ‘owner’ of the organization. Everything moved on consensus, and if there was no consensus there was stagnation, though they didn’t seem to realize it.
I came in about two weeks before we had to put the ‘show’ before its audience. I converted that feminine flat structure to a masculine hierarchy that was capable of dealing with multiple simultaneous challenges; this was the biggest problem with the feminine structure, though any immediate demand had the potential to shut them down.
I never had any trouble from any of them, even though I was taking over their thing at the last minute. The thing they had the biggest problem with was taking responsibility, being willing to be Bad (as I was saying in the previous thread), forceful, or what they considered to be mean; telling people “no,” making the hard decisions that had the potential to hurt. I didn’t have these problems. I’m not the most Alpha guy, unless I have a clear mission … which I did in this instance. Give me a mission and I get it done … half of our problem as men is having a CLEAR mission, which is not as common as we’d like it to be in this day and age.
Anyway, I made it a point to be forcefully honest, objective, strong, brave and honorable. To everyone. Also useful was a sense of humor and the willingness to listen to problems … with the requirement that they keep it focused and constructive. It wasn’t hard because I could make the mission clear … that hasn’t always been true of other sorts of projects. For a couple of weeks each of those women who had little or no discipline for the bulk of the year treated me like a wife accepting her husband’s frame completely … to the point where our celebrity guests would even approach me as if I was the “man” of each of those ladies families. Totally weird, but it shows there is something powerfully unconscious in this Red Pill stuff.
The women had their specialties, in fact I tended to lay out what they were going to be in charge of quite clearly. I didn’t have to know more than they did to be in charge, I just had to make decisions when they described their problems. Oddly, probably because we all accepted the clear mission, I never got the slightest “don’t solve my problems I just want to vent” … not ever. They needed someone to step in and take the burden of potential blame off their shoulders even when “blame” wouldn’t mean much of anything.
They got a lot of prep work done with their sewing circle style, cooperation, teamwork, and flat structure. But then the $h*t hit the fan and when we had to execute the event they needed an Executive. It takes a certain approach but they always seemed to feel relief, not rebellion when I showed up.
Regardless, and the thing I learned by writing this, it seems the pressure of what were doing caused a lot of their response. Survival used to create this sort of pressure and the need for an Executive to keep the decks clear and make the hard decisions. Choosing to have a clear mission and being honestly dedicated to it above anything personal focused their respect. You’ve got to be above the BS. Be someone who is worthy of being a leader.
“They got a lot of prep work done with their sewing circle style, cooperation, teamwork, and flat structure. But then the $h*t hit the fan and when we had to execute the event they needed an Executive. It takes a certain approach but they always seemed to feel relief, not rebellion when I showed up.”
I think this may have been because women have a very hard time respecting other women enough to follow and abide by their leadership. Even older women as you can see (at least the Christian ones I’ve seen) deal with harassment and mocking from women younger than them when they try to lead or speak out truths from the Bible.
I think it’s rare to find a woman who actual respects another woman in leadership who is older than her (or younger sometimes) and has respect for any kind of hierarchy system in regard to that female leader. Even rarer I think to find women who defend another woman being harassed. I think it takes a male ultimately in charge of the system, to ensure women don’t only be loyal to 0.0000000001 % of the population of Christians and employ the Crab Basket effect to all others.
In other words, you’re lucky those women seemed to like each other and work so well together. But I wonder what would have happened if one had tried to become the “leader” and take charge in a positive way? Would you have seen loyalty problems and backstabbing issues, gossip and the crab basket effect? Probably.
Stephanie: “I wonder what would have happened if one had tried to become the “leader”
That did happen. One was the “owner” of the organization and though they would all work with her and for her, as things got more intense around event time, they got bitchier and bitchier. Luckily, that’s when I tended to come in and calm them all down. They knew I would be tough but fair and would stay on mission no mater the emotions. I never thought about it at the time but for that brief time I was the patriarch.
There was one younger woman (late 20s early 30s) who was very formidable, very smart, fairly good looking, and a corporate executive of some minor sort. She used to get involved in the cycle around the time I did. They tended to stay out of her way and follow her lead BUT she was always careful to take on a specialty and stick with it or to play a supporting role to others … a fairly masculine approach.
When I would set up the hierarchy and the core group of ladies who ran things had to take their places in it they always went through a “they’re not the boss of me” resentful period toward the other women. Every year I had to carefully explain that being higher in the hierarchy meant that it was the higher persons job to take on the lower person’s work oriented problems and to make them go away so the lower person could continue their work uninterrupted. Yes, it gave that person some additional authority but it was also like the “higher up” performed a subservient role of making problems, usually ugly responsibilities, vanish from the lower person’s radar.
After some brief tears they usually got it … but the pace of operations was high enough so that it was fairly clear that without a good structure things would quickly collapse. It was interesting that they needed to learn this lesson Every Single Year. It was also interesting that they never had any resentment of me or the one other “man” who came in to run things. I put man in quotes because there were a number of boys, younger men who were automatically subservient to the women. By men I’m meaning guys who stepped up and committed to saying, “I will take total responsibility. I’m in charge and if you don’t like it, I’m the guy who did it to you. I empathize but I’m busy doing the thing we are all hear to do, so stay out of my way.”
In the midst of one especially intense year, when we were drastically behind schedule and chaos was everywhere, a new woman said to me, “None of this could happen without you!” I laughed. I said to her: “I have absolutely no idea what all these women are doing, I just make sure they can calmly keep doing it.” Then I said a thing she probably didn’t get and that really only has meaning here on this forum: “All I do is be the man.”
Under the right circumstances I don’t know if “the man” has to be male. I have a close friend, sort of an ex girlfriend, who was a Colonel in a certain branch of the military. She brilliant, committed, quite athletic but a tiny feminine woman. Years after 20 + years of service she ended up, like many officers, a top corporate executive.
At first she was not in a position that used her specialized knowledge, when I asked her what she brought to the job she said, “Command presence.” Just the way she said it caused the hair on the back of my neck to stand up. It sort of made me want to jump to my feet salute. She had it, but could turn it on and off at will. I never saw it outside of specific aspects of work. She was very wise about how to use it.
Alan
“After some brief tears they usually got it … but the pace of operations was high enough so that it was fairly clear that without a good structure things would quickly collapse.”
Pace can make a huge difference. So much done today has no hard deadline so the crab basket can “well we should….no we should…how about” spin.
Why I loved logistics and health care.
“Ok people we have a launch window of ten minutes 30 minutes from now with that cold front moving in….do we spend ten de-icing or not?”
“We have one bed coming available for tonight, here are the 18 requests for it. Pick one, arrange the transfer and notify the whole list of the decision…before lunch.”
Someone has to step up. Right. This. Instant.
Men, real men as Alan says step forward and just want to take responsibility.
Women and weak men…..look at their shoes.
Listen to his anology of “being in charge.”
P.s. the herd leader at the barn I work at is named Arthur.
Horse is spooky, watch the ears and head raising at the noises. The she looks at him, he is unconcerned so she stays calm. “Presence” as Alan says.
Warick again using “presence” or hooking on in horse terms to lead her.
Notice he doesn’t walk beside but in front. Tells her “you could charge thru me but I’m in charge so you will follow me.” That puts confidence in the horse.
All about just assuming authority and presence. The “he just gets it” thing.
Horseman: “Pace can make a huge difference. So much done today has no hard deadline so the crab basket can “well we should….no we should…how about” spin.”
I just wonder if “pace” which can also be defined as “survival” or “a clear mission” isn’t the problem for many young men these days. So few things are survival situations. The passive childhoods lived today, unlike the more active childhoods people our age may have had (what do five 8 year old boys do about the rattlesnake that has invaded their fort), teach very little and actually do harm by keeping kids super safe.
Businesses make taking responsibility dangerous rather than something rewarded. At a company I work with no one can speak clear facts just because they are inconvenient yet at my mechanic’s 9a shop full of Gulf War vets) when a car nearly fell off a lift everyone came running to help and five guys put their shoulders under a ton of steel to solve the problem.
We live in a world where threats have become more and more complicated. If your wife is sick and you defend your house against a strangely behaving, but not necessarily criminal stranger, you might go to jail or be sued and no longer be able to support her. That’s not the best example in the world but the point is that being the Man is not as clear or easy as it once was and you can over do it as quickly as under doing it. We are also taught that there is nothing good in dying (or taking some other form of ultimate responsibility) for something stupid and men used to give their lives all the time over mistaken issues … yet they were at least treated as normal and were sometimes heroes. Today, too often, they are considered fools. Having a clear mission, being sure you find a clear mission or that you clarify the mission hiding in the morass of crap you are handed can make life a vastly better place and is the first, and possibly the most important step, to being the Man. Having a clear mission is essentially masculine.
My “being the man” for the above mentioned organization was pitifully easy. I might loose a celebrity guest over some critical issue but the ladies were all fine with that as long as they didn’t have to be the one who did it. All I had to do was step up. The clearer I was and the more calm, honest, honorable and objective I was the more people accepted it when I had to get in their face. Telling some millionaire, “I hate to say it but this might not be the organization for you,” in the right tone could turn an angry $10,000 a year donor into an apologetic and respectful $15,000 donor.
Young men (and women) have to start with just stepping up in general and then moving up to more critical missions.
There have been plenty of times in my life when taking responsibility was a multitude of times more risky. But many of them were when I couldn’t figure out the clear mission or when the mission turned out to have unavoidably corrupt elements.
On further thought I think that the message in being a Man is saying to your coworkers, your subordinates, or your women: “I may not be the most gentle person but I will not leave you out there alone.” Just saying that puts you half way in charge of whatever it is. Then you have to live up to it.
‘Thoughts?’
Pence rule is a good rule. We can’t give women the benefit of the doubt anymore given what happens sometimes when they get us behind closed doors.
I think a lot of recent college graduates (especially those with graduate degrees) prefer to go into “staff” positions in which they analyze & advise rather than “line” positions in which their scope may theoretically be smaller but they have actual decision-making authority and responsibility. They’d rather write “long-term strategic plans” for American Gerbilator Corp than run the San Diego sales office or manage a department in the Omaha plant. If they go into government, they’d rather do studies of “transportation options in 2050” than manage the Atlanta Tower for the FAA.
I’m pretty sure it was previously understood that no one should ever be taken from a pure “staff” role into an extremely important “line” role without first being tested in a smaller-scale line job. Too often, this is not the case anymore. (Barack Obama being an ultimate case in point)
So true about childhood today. My knees and elbows were always scraped from crashing on the bike or roller skates. I learned to brush it off. Today my kids have maybe had three such incidents between them in total. It has become too safe, no chance to practice resilience or overcoming adversity. Now it seems young people today demand “safe spaces” and such, putting the burden of safety on an outside source rather than taking ownership. It’s not good in so many ways…
I don’t know how a parent could live through losing a kid in the way me or my friends might have died any number of times. I had really good parents, and yet it’s like they never thought of it. But now boys grow up to be girls and girls grow up to be useless if they are not allowed to take a few risks and survive a few adventures on their own.
Safety begets safety and the safer things are the less people are willing to risk anything at all … you’d think it might be the other way around because they’d figure that the odds were on their side.
I don’t want to get carried away complaining, all you have to do is watch you tube and some of the things kids do with their skateboards or the waves they surf (though few of those are all that young) to realize that there are SOME real bad asses out there. But vast numbers of run of the mill kids aren’t being challenged in run of the mill ways so much anymore. It doesn’t bode well. On the other hand there’s a whole generation that is going to have to learn to become adults in their 30s, and they may have a bit more maturity than I did before they try. We don’t know they will hide in their parent’s basements, many won’t be able to and they could do just fine, just a bit later in life.
Parents need to take the time to take their kids on real adventures where they are along to protect yet there are real challenges. The main thing is that parents need to take the time.
Alan
“Parents need to take the time to take their kids on real adventures where they are along to protect yet there are real challenges. The main thing is that parents need to take the time.”
Close but no cigar.
Not take them…Let them make their Own adventures.
Go outside and play, comeback when the streetlights turn on and stay inside the county.
That meant riding our bikes 5 miles to the next town for the cheap ice cream, cooling off in the river, check on the new construction site for scraps for the fort, and play some baseball (oops forgot the ball, eh just use a rock.)
Every kid had a pocket knife and lighter to pry off the lamprey, salt for the swamp leeches and crazy glue to close the bad cuts.
Going to my room on a summer day was punishment!!
Then again we obeyed any grownup cause they all watched out for all the kids.
“Little Horseman!! Cant you see the lights are on!! Go home or I’ll whip you for your ma!”
“Yes Mrs Polinski!
Knock knock.
” Hey Mrs. Smith, can we have a couple of glasses of water? Thanks! Oh and Kenny (smith) last we seen him was down in the creek with the jefferson twins.”
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/07/16/537075018/dirt-is-good-why-kids-need-exposure-to-germs
@ horseman I did many of the things you describe as a kid too. Thing is today even if parents WANT to let their kids roam or have unsupervised time, other people who think themselves “protectors” will call the police to report these “neglected, abandoned” kids. I know a local mom who left her three kids ages 6,9,11 in the car for FIVE minutes to run into a store and in the meantime someone called and the police showed up. No charges were filed and I am not sure this is the best example but parents in my area risk law enforcement involvement for letting kids “be kids.”
Also just the other day I told my oldest and Dancers girl they could go to the local park if I took little sister to play while they “met friends.” Dancer,s daughter had been talking to a boy at school, so I figured that was who they were going to meet. So they refused if I went so I refused to take them.
Then again if we were home by 5:00 we could watch….
In 24 years I never meet a good female solider
@Alan K
“Stephanie: “I wonder what would have happened if one had tried to become the “leader”
That did happen. One was the “owner” of the organization and though they would all work with her and for her, as things got more intense around event time, they got bitchier and bitchier. Luckily, that’s when I tended to come in and calm them all down. They knew I would be tough but fair and would stay on mission no mater the emotions. I never thought about it at the time but for that brief time I was the patriarch.”
^Great job!!! And yes, you were the acting Patriarch in that system. How awesome that you handled things like that.
….
.
“There was one younger woman (late 20s early 30s) who was very formidable, very smart, fairly good looking, and a corporate executive of some minor sort. She used to get involved in the cycle around the time I did. They tended to stay out of her way and follow her lead BUT she was always careful to take on a specialty and stick with it or to play a supporting role to others … a fairly masculine approach.”
^Yeah… I’ve found it’s drama free when you stick to your own thing (that they seem to think you’re really good at LOL) and kind of stay non-competitive and non-threatening. There’s no reason to compete in things like that (these women should join sports if they’re craving competition!!), it only creates problems when they compare and compete with each other in group or work settings. They should all be on the SAME TEAM supporting each other and being LOYAL to each other. Thankfully the groups I’m in currently don’t have any of that drama, and it’s sooo refreshing! Maybe it’s because being police wives, we’ve got enough real life stuff to worry about, but the support is like a family.
….
“When I would set up the hierarchy and the core group of ladies who ran things had to take their places in it they always went through a “they’re not the boss of me” resentful period toward the other women. Every year I had to carefully explain that being higher in the hierarchy meant that it was the higher persons job to take on the lower person’s work oriented problems and to make them go away so the lower person could continue their work uninterrupted.”
That’s just so dumb lol. I’ve seen that too, where the explaining needed to happen (sometimes I’ve done the explaining) to assure them that it was a good decision and that they have to submit to the other woman’s authority. You can’t do that though if you don’t have the correct authority or if you have a weak leader who is too soft.
But wow, you had to do that **every year**?? To me that’s just too much drama. I’d change jobs or something, or transfer to another unit… something to get away from that.
…
“It was interesting that they needed to learn this lesson Every Single Year. It was also interesting that they never had any resentment of me or the one other “man” who came in to run things.”
Again.. every year would be ridiculous!
About the way they treated you and other men? Women don’t hold men to the same standard as they hold other women (they see as competition against themselves). The women aren’t competing with y’all… as a rule, women kind of want to please men and make them happy – maybe feminists act differently I don’t know, but I know that female-male behavior is ingrained biologically. I know I always wanted to do my best and please the men I worked for (came from my dad and then my husband). But I’ve never had envy issues, and I don’t see other women as competition (there’s enough to go around for everyone in my book). But women who do act like that and view other women as their competition (even after getting a husband which is weird to me!), have a hard time not judging and criticizing and constantly negging (which is just emotional manipulation with backhanded compliments or insults, etc). They’re either really insecure or just bitchy I don’t know. But they aren’t loyal or good to other women supposedly on their same team.
Not sure if y’all have heard of a man enjoying being “the only REAL man in the room,” it’s where a man wants to cut the legs out from all the other men around him so that he can appear like the only one who is alpha enough. It’s AMOGing and Pastors tend to do it when they go on shaming men rants. They become literally “the only real man in the room.”
Well women do that, too. The ones who get all insecure about their husbands (with no need), the ones who view other women as default competitors, the ones who have envy issues, they want to be the only “real woman” in the room and at a very deep level, they don’t want other women in their vicinity to succeed or be prettier or sexier or better at what she’s doing than them.
I’ve literally seen a woman like this, blog openly that she feels like she’s being attacked by dogs when she’s around a prettier or sexier woman and her husband is there. Psychologically, in her mind, she has a need to perceive herself as the only “real woman” (aka prettiest woman… sexiest woman… ) or she feels INTENSE threat levels that make her feel like dogs are attacking her very life! It’s irrational or a character disorder, but how on earth can you relate (as another woman) to someone like that? lol They judge you before they even know you.
@ Stephanie did you have sisters? I only ask bc I didn’t and have noticed others w/o sisters did not feed as much into the “girls against each other for the title” thing. Or maybe it’s girls w sisters who get pitted against each other? Like you I was always like, “whatever, that’s silly” when women acted such. But I think it’s more commonly thst than it not being so. We may be oddities! 🙂 I mean that in a good way.
@stephanie yes I know and have experienced women who feel sick. It comes from a very deep space and is rarely about any other woman in particular. I find it sad really. It must suck to feel like that. Not that it makes being the target of that any easier, either. Water off a ducks back. Don’t let anyone take your happy.
* such not sick.
Stephanie: “you had to do that **every year**?? To me that’s just too much drama. I’d change jobs or something, or transfer to another unit… something to get away from that.”
LOL. It was a charity and I was donating my time. That was part of the magic because I could always say; “screw it, y’all solve your own problems,” to both the staff and the guests. They knew I had a perfectly fine career and only did it because I cared.
It was fun in many ways; LOTS of women treating me like an Alpha created a sort of Super Alpha effect to the point where the older women (my age!) were actively pushing me on the younger ones. I never had to go home alone … although we were working so hard that usually had to wait ’til afterward. Seriously, it was for a good cause and it was also the Girlfriend Machine.
RPG: “@ Stephanie did you have sisters? I only ask bc I didn’t and have noticed others w/o sisters did not feed as much into the “girls against each other for the title” thing.”
The worst I’ve seen are three sister families. Total cat fight. The best women I’ve known had one older and one younger brother. Sister looks up to older brother and dates his friends. She takes care of younger brother. She has to deal with two boys being boy-like from a young age. She learns to hold her own. Very healthy if the family is a good one. I also know of a horror show but that was a sick, sick, family and a real outlier.
@Bloom, no sisters just one brother 🙂 but lots of older female cousins (some really gorgeous ones, too!)… I’m at the bottom of the female totem pole in our family LOL, which has some advantages to being the baby. There is a team-like feel between us, not competition (but maybe it’s the age difference).
“It was fun in many ways; LOTS of women treating me like an Alpha created a sort of Super Alpha effect to the point where the older women (my age!) were actively pushing me on the younger ones. I never had to go home alone … although we were working so hard that usually had to wait ’til afterward. Seriously, it was for a good cause and it was also the Girlfriend Machine.”
Women are always wanting a man who can step in like you did and create a better (more fair) environment, and yes, you become the “Go-To” Alpha and they respect you and adore you in many ways (it’s your frame). It’s not even a sexual thing (hence the older women pushing the younger women on you – because they’re looking out for you not competing to get your sexual attention). Women want to be around men like that, and I think it’s kind of good for everyone involved since it makes them behave lol.
All women here, all, need to read this from one of your sisters.
She to a small degree gets it then blew it with a list of demands of us but no action that women should take to bridge the gap.
Starts strong…
“Defence of men by men is guaranteed to incite fury among more radical feminists. Sometimes this anger is appropriate, but being told that their opinions aren’t valid because of their gender makes many men feel justifiably defensive. They feel alienated and vilified by modern feminism, despite agreeing that sexual misconduct is repugnant and women should be able to live free of unwanted sexual advances and violence. The sad result is that many men end up frustrated and isolated with little, if any, respect for feminist movements.
That is not a dialogue. That is women taking advantage of the fact that society is finally allowing us to monologue, and we are clinging to that advantage for dear life. If we want equality, which is what feminism is, we cannot exclude men. We need to ask ourselves why decent men feel they are not welcome on our side of the discussion. Vilifying men will only perpetuate gender conflict, not develop the mutual respect that feminists are striving for.”
But then blows it with the list for men to follow but no recognition of what they should do for men
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/first-person/as-women-protest-for-equality-not-all-men-is-not-thepoint/article37820803/
But in response to her list that All men should follow…a list all women should follow.
(Just as you can’t tell which “not all men” are abusers, we can’t tell which women are false accusers)
1 Dont freak at the Pence rule, if we want the door open its not that wee don’t trust you, we just don’t trust all women.
2. We won’t street harass you, or even compliment you, as you requested, so don’t get all pouty when we stop paying anything but unemotional polite attention to you.
3. We will respect you as a person, a self reliant, equal, capable person….so you can never ever again bat your eyes or use your looks to get favours, drinks, anything ever.
The HUGE one
(Just to show tbe hypocracy you dont realize you do)
“Sexist humour, rape jokes, “boys will be boys” attitudes and street harassment all perpetuate rape culture. You don’t see the harm because it’s only talk, but it normalizes sexualized violence.”
Our version
The hubby slamming, the marriage bitching, “i am so married to a duffus” attitudes all perpetuate frivorce culture. You don’t see the harm because its onlky talk, but it normalizes family disintigration.
E.g. a bar. The guys in the corner talking smack…about sports, cars, politics and yes occassionally the chest of the waitress.
The girls in the corner talking smack…about how their husbands dont make enough money, their dates wont commit, and the ass on the bartender.
Funny but most guy talk is about women Maaaaaayybe 5% of the time.
You ladies, honestly…how long can you go without talking about guys?.
Soon it will be forever. Cause we will soon stop talking to women we don’t know.
Oh and Guess stock dropped 15% today because Kate Upton Tweeted
“It’s disappointing that such an iconic women’s brand @GUESS is still empowering Paul Marciano as their creative director #metoo.”
Soon after, she posted a screencap of her tweet on Instagram accompanied by another caption.
“He shouldn’t be allowed to use his power in the industry to sexually and emotionally harass women #metoo,” she wrote.”
Thats it. Nothing else. And a major company drops 15%.
Later she said in an interview
“… I can’t wait to tell my whole story,” the 25-year-old model told TMZ Wednesday upon arriving at LAX in California.
While the former GUESS Girl wouldn’t reveal whether she was a victim of sexual harassment or looking to come forward on behalf of other models, she told the gossip site her personal account will come in due time.”
So when influential women pull this crap….
How is the average guy supposed to protect himself
And FUCKING TRUST Any Of You????
There is a new post at Spawny’s
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2018/02/02/losing-it/
I am not defending Marciano.
Had to google who he was.
Hell he maybe the next true Weinstien…
But We Don’t Know!!
Cause she didn’t say Anything.
But in this environment the shareholders freaked…based on less than nothing!!
Any wonder we are paranoid about this power you have??
‘But We Don’t Know!!
Cause she didn’t say Anything.’
That’s my biggest pet peeve with her cryptic statements…what’s the point in dragging it out if in fact she was the recipient of his sexual harassment? To lengthen the attention bestowed upon her or to be part of the #metoo herd?