Tags
casual sex, dating, marriage, marriage material, one night stands, red pill, romance, sexy, sexy housewife
A recent post at another blog got me thinking about how so many young women today who say they want marriage and family may not be putting out the right message with their image. It’s really important to know and target one’s audience.
Girls today are taught to be bold, fearless, sexy, hot, strong, independent, fun, fit, lean, and fierce. Many work hard to meet those goals, and post images of the results of their workouts for the world to see on social media. Sultry bikini model image? Check!
It seems to work, such images get lots of clicks and likes and comments which only reinforces to the girl she’s on the right track. Attention! So she posts more, and it becomes a self-affirming loop.
Except the Internet is forever, and let’s face it potential dates (and later their families) are going to later Google those same images. Nights out drinking with the girls. Sultry sexy barely clad shots. Sad breakup shot after sad breakup shot. Through the marriage lens, the fun time party girl is starting to look like a real train wreck…
A woman seeking marriage would be wiser to put out a completely different image — wholesome, chaste, domestic, nurturing, loves animals and children, does and says the right things, has it together, NOT a train wreck, someone you’d proudly bring home to meet mom (and not worry about what she’s going to wear, do, or say!) These are really the qualities a man is looking for in a wife, even if it seems like times have changed.
(And hopefully it goes w/o saying don’t just look it, do your best to BE and develop all those qualities. Your life will be happier and better, trust me! Pain is overrated.)
It’s ok to be a touch sexy, and every guy wants a gal who is a secret sex kitten behind closed doors, but a gal with an overly sexy image more likely catches the eye and gets approached by caddish guys looking to “hit it and forget it” than by the solid-but-steady type who would make a fine husband but thinks to himself, “Danger! Risk! Not worth it! Look but don’t touch.”
Target your audience ladies! And don’t forget, past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior — make sure your social media isn’t unintentionally sending the wrong signals. Future bar fly is not what men seek in a mate or the mother of their children. So keep it classy!
Put yourself in your audience’s shoes. How others perceive you, especially at first glance, can both work for or against your goals. Consciously make sure it’s working in your favor. Set yourself up to win.
What do you think about all this? Please feel free to share in the comments!
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
I cant believe this even needs to be said.
We joke about men thinking with their little head, but if this is not common sense then we need a really good joke about what women think with/ or don’t think with.
I knew a trainwreck. She got saved and became a Christian, then I met her a few months later. I married the x-trainwreck. And I do mean trainwreck. You can’t even begin to imagine…
She’s been a great wife and mother. She stayed home and raised out kids. 30 years later, she’s still great.
Past behavior isn’t always a predictor of future behavior. At least when they get saved it isn’t.
Just something to think about.
What you propose is virtually impossible. Social networking and attention on Instagram is like crack for most women. They crave the validation to a point where it consumes their personal life and hinders the ability to have normal relationships. Extreme vanity and narcissism take over.
She’s putting on a show that attracts the wrong types of guys. Limited modesty, false sense of independence, exaggerated and false appearance that’s enhanced by clothes and fakeup. Of course she’d attract superficial guys.
Without the Lord, we are all trainwrecks.
There but for the grace of God go I.
Some are more trainwrecks than others. While we all need the grace of God, some people leave behind a trail of dysfunction, death and destroyed lives here on earth.
The consequences here on earth of some actions are much more severe and long lasting than other actions. We ignore that at our own peril.
Yes Joe…discernment is always key.
I’ll always be physically attracted to good looking women…but if you don’t observe what she is saying and doing…it’ll lead to your peril.
Acting prideful about yourself while blaming others for your sins is a HUGE red flag..for both sexes.
@Hyperborean XRP, welcome! And yes, agreed, social media has changed things since I was that age in ways I can’t fully understand. Reinforces some very not good things. And it starts very young. Beyond warning young women, I am not sure what can be done to counter this…
Indeed Earl. I feel heartbroken as well for all the boys and men also trapped in this cycle, being damaged in a different way. Either becoming cads bc that’s what works or involuntary incels because what used to work now doesn’t. There are no innocent victims.Even those who seem to be “winning” really aren’t.
Here’s the general thing about cads and incels…as far as I can tell
Often they come from single mother homes or have a very weak father…and the mother doesn’t give them a great example of femininity (because that’s the most impressionable woman on a young boy). So once they grow up they either take the path of hating women by ruining their innocence (or continuing to ruin it)…or hating women by checking out (while reminding us all the time women are evil incarnate…not things like the devil or sins of the flesh). The common deniominator is how feminism turns women into something men don’t want, breaks up families, and continues this cycle of the wedge between the sexes.
Cads don’t win by having lots of sex and making a woman’s life hell…and sluts don’t win by having lots of male attention and making a man’s life hell….there’s a hurt in there somewhere they are trying to fill.
So true Earl!
Further, when I first encountered the manosphere, someone linked to a Roosh V post. I forget the topic, but while the comment was supposed to point to how RV was “winning” and “getting it” and “enjoying the fall.” Yet, when I read his post, I sensed a huge emptiness, despair, and I could see nearly a year before he came to the same conclusion that “banging” random chicks wasn’t a fulfilling life goal, or did it make him the MAN he wanted to be, even if he was writing books and had a large following and was literally making a living writing about it. From what I have read he doesn’t come from a broken home, but the lifestyle broke him in a way just the same, just as it breaks the gals engaging in it in another way. He’s admitted more recently that he thinks he has lost the ability to truly love or bond. He seems to long for a “good girl” and have a family but like gals addicted to cads, he questions if he could make it work after his own experiences. His post reminded me of reading the book of Lamentations, sometimes having everything one thinks they want doesn’t lead to happiness after all. If those things are ultimately empty, it leads to boredom, emptiness, and deep dissatisfaction.
Broken home is usually a big reason why it happens…but it’s not the complete reason.
It could have been a secular, worldly, materialistic upbringing. Most trust fund rich kids often have intact homes…but there wasn’t much love in the upbringing.
I think they are trying to find God…and sex was something given to us by God to be fruitful and multiply with our spouse so they get a very dim aspect of it. They just aren’t aware of the narrow path to find God yet.
For those who believe the Bible:
1. In the beginning, just God and Adam. The ultimate bromance.
2. God saw that Adam was lonely – in spite of their bromance.
3. God created Eve as a help – meet (old english for proper and fitting) for Adam.
4. God knew before he created Eve that she would force Adam to choose between her and God. God created her anyway.
5. See Points 2 and 4; from those points we can infer that Adam was expected to choose Eve over God.
6. God told Eve that Adam would rule over her.
7. God could have created the “perfect” woman for Adam. He didn’t. Why? (rhetorical)
———————————-
From this link: The Importance of Fathers … Bottom of Page 16
“On average, fathers who live in a married household with their children are better able to create a family environment that is more conducive to the safety and necessary care of their children. Consequently, children who live with their biological father in a married household are significantly less likely to be physically abused,”
“One cannot equate a household headed by a married mother and father with a household headed by parents who are cohabitating. There is something
about the legal and social commitments of marriage that strengthens the positive impacts of fathering.”
The study details the different way the children may be abused if the father is not present (and married to the mother).
The evidence that children are abused in the absence of the father, and protected by his presence, speaks to the concept that outcomes are better when women are ruled over by their husband. This truth could be offered as support for Point 6 above. And we know that Point 6 was God’s intention. He could have created something different, and did not.
—————————————-
8. Adam’s Father procured for him a wife that needed to be ruled over. This implies that she was an imperfect woman, whose outcomes would be sub-optimal without her husband ruling over her. The evidence discussed in the link I gave (plus many other links that are available to those willing to search for them) supports this conclusion.
9. Given Point 8 … I am constantly baffled by those in the manosphere who claim to fear God, yet keep expect to find a wife better than the one Adam’s Father procured for him. It is not going to happen. By design. For the wife to be useful (to husband and children), she will need to be ruled over. Even when she makes choices that blow up the family (such as getting herself kicked out of the Garden). By design.
10. What have we wrought in this present age when we have given Eve the ability to deny Adam the opportunity to rule over her? (not implying physical violence in any of this.)
11. Consider Joe’s comment above, in light of all that has been said here. I believe his comment presents proof of concept.
@Richard….
The only issue I have is that Eve was created ‘imperfect’. She was created without sin like Adam…and then was imperfect when she was disobedient to God and her husband. That’s how I would define ‘imperfect’.
But what we can take from it is…Adam was always meant to rule over Eve, whether she was without sin or with sin. And a lot of it was for her benefit (along with his).
“Joe’s comment above” should be “Joe’s first comment above”.
@earl: The only important point in what I said is that God could have created something different, and did not. He had to have a reason for that. Whether Eve was created perfect and then became imperfect is beside the point. God could have created something different, yet did not. That is the point.
A full examination of the logic of what I am presenting would cover in detail the verses that say God created the plan of salvation (Jesus as the final sacrifice) before he created Adam and Eve. When you come to fully comprehend the implications of that, my Points 1-10 above make more sense.
@earl – It is useful to contemplate this question as well: when did Eve decide that there were benefits to be had from disobeying God? When did Eve actually bite into the forbidden fruit, purposefully and intentionally? After the fall, when supposedly the sinful nature kicked in? Or before the fall, which implies the sinful nature was already present? (Rhetorical questions, meant to stimulate thinking; let’s not turn this thread into a debate over this.)
Of course, “past behavior isn’t always a predictor of future behavior”, but it would be stupid to ignore it as irrelevant. It’s also worth considering that the differences between today and thirty years ago may make it much harder to improve the future behavior.
God created them male and female. That was stated even before Adam and Eve. (Genesis 1:26-27) That was stated before Adam was alone on the earth.
So to me that seems like that was always the blueprint. God creating something different would be some odd third sex (and closed circuit to the LGBwhatevers out there…there’s only two sexes)
Indeed Richard P, much to ponder there. Bc of my misguided tho king in my own youth, although I married young and we were believers, I foolishly fought the lead of my now ex husband. At the time I did not understand his wisdom, looking back I can see now much of what he was doing was trying to protect us (including me from myself) and to set us up for a solid, stable future. He was frugal and risk adverse, did not believe in debt, etc. Even with our issues (looking back I believe he was depressed, using alcohol excessively to cope w past unresolved stuff, I misread that as him not loving me and added to the problems rather than eased them) life worked better for his leadership, even if imperfect. He held so much together I did not even recognize at the time. And yes, our daughter is worse off being between two homes, even as much as we both love and want the best for her. After the divorce I met another and we had a child, intending to marry but before that happened he decided to leave, likely overwhelmed from going from being a lifelong bachelor to a spouse and father, again I could have done more to help there. My oldest took it very hard, and I did all I could to convince him we should stick it out bc of our child but he didn’t see then what I could. It would never be “over” for her or us. IMy ex remarried about that same time to a gal who is great and oddly I like very much, we’d be friends if that wasn’t odd. She’s better at listening than I was. She has two kids that live w them full time so our daughter struggles w feeling like odd man out. It’s been tough. This weekend my younger daughter’s father will marry a gal wo kids, she seems nice, I hope that goes well. But it is more change for the kids, if they have children that will be more change yet. I have met a wonderful man and am doing my best not to repeat my foolish mistake of trying to be “equal.” I recognize he is the leader and I know I need his help and guidance. My kids really like him too, he has no children but is so good to the girls. Our relationship is long distance yet oddly the most in tune I have ever had. We plan to be together full time and forever but circumstances prevent that for a bit. All this is the long way to say you are so right, I hope others can avoid learning that the hard way. From this.
Long story short I am so imperfect! I fully admit I am and need God and a man in the flesh too to help me. That may sound weird but I so see that. Women NEED men, everyone needs God. Without Grace, we’d all be in trouble. Hopefully this cracked pot has some use yet! I am so humbled by my own foolishness, I NEED a leader and THE Leader!
Richard, before the fall but after listening to the Deciever, who is always beckoning us down the path to our fall. Obeying God is the only way to avoid it. Too bad we can’t seem to just do that, but not one could hence Grace!
BTW even despite deeply wishing I could be perfect, I still fall short. Daily. Despite salvation I still am a cracked pot, even when trying hard not to be. Not that I am up to huge big bad things or wanting to or trying to but even so. I fall short. I don’t think I am alone in this. I wish it wasn’t so but I’d be lying if I said I know it all or am perfect. I pray for Grace and guidance and all the rest daily, continually!
It’s a mystery why God would create such imperfect beings. Or let them make choices. Everything would work just fine so humans mucking it up, when you think about it.
Someday I intend to ask why. For now I don’t get it but I accept it. Maybe we have to be imperfect to experience unconditional love? If we deserved it, it wouldn’t be unconditional!
Some could say it’s a set up? A cosmic paradox? But why??? It escapes me! But I trust there’s a plan and reason and it’s perfect. 🙂
I am sitting in the dr. Office btw, waiting. Hopefully he gets here soon before I tell you guys my whole life story! Lol.
My guy tells me all the time I say too much. So I will now remember er his advice and be still! Lol. See?!
‘It’s a mystery why Hod would create such imperfect beings. Everything would work just fine so humans mucking it up, when you think about it.’
The reason why we are imperfect is because we mucked it up. We were disobedient.
God didn’t create us imperfect in the beginning…He created us in His image. That’s probably a big reason why He loves us so much. He further proved it by sending his Son to die on the cross for us.
It’s about how you represent yourself, both online and off. No woman has to be fake or pretend to be Miss Perfect, but be wise about how you are presenting yourself. Know what you want and know how to get what you want.
“Your beauty should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight.” I Peter 3:4 “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” Proverbs 4:23
we can “do the best we can with what we’ve got” when it comes to our outer self, but our inner self is sacred, and from our heart flows everything. 1 peter 3:4 is the first verse i taught my daughters, and daily they amaze me with their beautiful hearts … which flows through their eyes and everything they do.
we picked up the little girl we keep from school today. she’s in 4th grade and my Oldest’s mini-me. when she got in the car she was sad and began telling us the story of her day. my Oldest reached around to the backseat and held her hand – an awkward angle for her, but she didn’t complain or let go. when they got home my Oldest sat with her for a good 45+ minutes even though she was really hungry after a hard work-out today and needed to eat … because Little Girl needed to be held and nurtured and cared for and listened to. i sat in the other room and listened with joy swelling my heart.
how i wish i could teach these truths to all women when they’re little girls! but, alas, even then … some will not choose to hear and believe. for those who are willing, may they hear, and learn, and adapt.
BTW even despite deeply wishing I could be perfect, I still fall short. Daily. Despite salvation I still am a cracked pot, even when trying hard not to be. Not that I am up to huge big bad things or wanting to or trying to but even so. I fall short. I don’t think I am alone in this. I wish it wasn’t so but I’d be lying if I said I know it all or am perfect. I pray for Grace and guidance and all the rest daily, continually!
me, too 😉
goFigure – you’re assuming women *think* 😉
awesome, beautiful story!
this is true for those who really and truly give their hearts and souls to Jesus. there are many, though, who hold onto what they want and do not give it all to Him. are they still ‘saved?’ idk. there are those who believe my first (ex) husband and late father of my daughters was not a christian b/c of the things he did (fruit). idk. i hate to think he’s not in heaven even though he believed he was going there. as i’ve told my girls when it came up … we’ll just believe he’s there because we won’t know for sure till we get there anyway.
Social networking and attention on Instagram is like crack for most women. They crave the validation to a point where it consumes their personal life and hinders the ability to have normal relationships.
as a mother of daughters, this has always been a concern – well, not the social networking when they were little b/c it wasn’t around yet (they’re 20 and 18), but the need to be validated and valued for who they are and what they look like … but also to be realistic.
somehow, i’ve done a good job. neither of my girls use social media, and neither are out there searching for validation hits. however, i do give them a ton of validation and compliments and praise at home – but i do so accurately and balance with direction and discipline and truth and admonishment.
Some are more trainwrecks than others. While we all need the grace of God, some people leave behind a trail of dysfunction, death and destroyed lives here on earth.
The consequences here on earth of some actions are much more severe and long lasting than other actions. We ignore that at our own peril.
yes. this. yes.
i’ve tried to teach my girls this world is not all about them … that everything they do affects others. they’ve had an up-close and personal view of that thru their dad (unfortunately). but they’ve also learned to forgive, and how to work through hard stuff, and how to come out on the other side.
i have a family member who has lived a very destructive life and recently (in the last approx five years) has seemingly turned her life around. now she wants everyone to forgive her as God has forgiven her. she flippantly says, “God has forgiven my sins and forgotten them as far as the east is from the west.” but she left behind a trail of destruction. i don’t say anything b/c she doesn’t have ears to hear. i figure it’s between her and God.
😦
hard truth, Bloom.
😦
Bloom – just acknowledging all this goes a long way with your daughters. when i was in therapy all those years ago i remember a session where i expressed concerns of ‘what-if’s’ possibly happening to my girls someday, and he said that they’d already be ahead of the game b/c they’d have someone who believed them and believed in them.
just believing our kids is huge. let them tell you how it hurts, share their anger, etc. just listen and validate them. that is more powerful than you can know. it will be painful for you … things my girls have said to me over the years have been so painful, but it wasn’t about me; it was about them. so i let them share and validated them. it was some of the best advice he gave me.
Long story short I am so imperfect! I fully admit I am and need God and a man in the flesh too to help me. That may sound weird but I so see that. Women NEED men, everyone needs God. Without Grace, we’d all be in trouble. Hopefully this cracked pot has some use yet! I am so humbled by my own foolishness, I NEED a leader and THE Leader!
yes yes yes!!! me, too!!!
my thoughts get tangled up with these things, too, and i finally just have to let it go and believe, and believe that my finite, human mind may very well never be able to understand 🙂
I am sitting in the dr. Office
hope everything is okay.
@earl: God creating something different would be some odd third sex (and closed circuit to the LGBwhatevers out there…there’s only two sexes)
Earl, if that comment was directed at me, my appologies for being vague. I was not talking about God creating a different sex. “God could have created something different, but he didn’t.” That comment is addressing this truth: God knew that Eve would force Adam to choose between her and God. God could have created Eve without that ability. God could have created Adam to not be lonely in their bromance, so he wouldn’t have had to create Eve. God could have created either Adam or Eve or both so that their choices would have led to different outcomes, or so that they had no choice at all. But he didn’t. He created what we currently have – on purpose. So there must be some reason for it being this way.
God could have created anything he wanted, and he created this. So I assume this is what he wanted and I’m content to leave it at that – since I wouldn’t likely understand the reasons why even if he explained them to me. And I’m content to accept that, when God said that it was “good”, that meant everything turned out just the way he intended it to turn out.
It’s his game. He gets to set the rules. Or – he is the potter; we are only the clay. Does the pot get to say to the potter “do you know what you are doing” and all that. Isaiah 45:9
‘God could have created Eve without that ability.’
‘ God could have created either Adam or Eve or both so that their choices would have led to different outcomes, or so that they had no choice at all. ‘
If He did…then she wouldn’t of had free will.
@ Ame check up on the shoulder injury from this fall. Good news, physical therapy is working, surgery won’t be needed! Yay. 🙂
Thank you for asking! 🙂
One thing I hope to teach my girls that I learned late was don’t let your feelz drive you. Develop emotional control. Lots of unneeded relationship strife and many relationship endings are due to feelz.
Thinking feelz = fact for example is a very destructive thing. This can lead to lots of stinking thinking. The hamster driving is not good! Women talk themselves into all sorts of not good decisions. Like Eve! Hence needing a leader. Listening to reason.
I wrote the “I’m content to leave it at that – ” part without having read through the rest of the thread after earl’s comment. Amazing how much my statement dovetails with what both Bloom and Ame said, without knowing that they said it. Probably someone who reads this thread now or later needs to hear what has been said. All of us have been left to craft a life as best we can with the mess that is reality outside the Garden. These kinds of stories help folks in that struggle.
The point of life is not just to survive, but to flourish. We cannot flourish without being cherished and “seen”. Ame described that well. The link I provided about the importance of fathers also makes the same point.
Probably one of the most important truths about being redeemed that does not get emphasized much is this: forgiveness does not mean no punishment. Too many go around with the attitude that “God has forgiven me, so that means I get off scott free”. Bad theology. The death of David and Bathsheeba’s first-born is a case in point. There are other examples.
————-
It is not a specific sin which will keep us from hearing “well done; enter into the joy of the Lord” at the Judgement.
It is refusing the Holy Spirit’s call to repentance that will keep us from hearing that.
It is important to understand that distinction. Paul says he does what he knows he’s not supposed to do, and doesn’t do what he knows he should. Yet he looked forward to completing the race and winning it. What gives with that?
Two different outcomes for sinning:
God’s wrath is reserved for the non-redeemed who sin. Colossians 3:5-7 and Ephesians 5:6
When the redeemed sin, they have a different outcome: 1 John:1-2
Ame, only God knows the heart of your children’s father before he passed. But the two different outcomes for sinning that I just presented should give us pause. Two people, both look equally bad on the outside. But there are two different destinations if one is relying on the advocate to speak on his behalf. But we won’t know that from just looking on the outside. I understand this conflicts somewhat with the “fruits” issue, but this is not the place to get too deeply into this. Just understand that God makes this distinction in the Bible. It is not the sin that makes the difference. It is whether one responds to the Holy Spirits call to repentence that makes the difference.
Two men on crosses. Both looked like social outcasts to the crowd below. One relied on the Advocate. The other did not. And that is what made the difference.
Sorry your comment got held up Richard, more than two links automatically does that to prevent potential spam I think! It should show up now…
Indeed indeed, such mysteries these things are, but each has free will and at some point chooses or even chooses not to choose. I choose team God. 🙂 Team deception suck a$$. Every time!
Looks good, sounds good… but no… do not be deceived.
How did you get engaged in six days and stay married for thirty years.
Because
We both knew what we wanted and didnt want in a partner
We both knew exactly what each other was as a partner and as a person
These things were compatible.
Done.
And even so Horseman, there have been times, no? It is never easy, but it is worth the doing.I am glad you two weathered the storms. 🙂
And horseman, please do not take that personally. I only mean to call into question the thinking that it’s about “choosing right.” Rather than “doing right.” Choosing well helps for sure, but really in six days you knew exactly who each other were? And would ever be? No. Not possible. You CHOOSE to weather the storms. And it was a wise choice!
I am btw, obviously, a big sucker for a good exestential/theological discussion. Please anyone who might be, take no offense. Each must seek and find at their own pace and time.
In other words, I never liked religon pushed upon me and I would never want anyone to feel I pushed it upon them.:)
you are wise and teachable, Bloom. that goes such a long way as a parent. none of us do parenting perfectly, and often things work well when i didn’t even plan it!
you’ve reminded me of some things i did. with my aspie girl i had to break things down in different ways to penetrate her thinking. one of the things i began teaching her early on was to take control of her brain. her brain would get tangled up and go crazy and lead to, among other things, autistic meltdowns. no fun. so i would teach her to take control of her brain. somehow, that way of thinking helps her process her emotions.
Parenting perfectly? That’s also a no for me. Not that I ever wanted to do anything but. And yet I have. I think my kids do know my heart. I hope they will listen to what I have learned the hard way, hopefully avoid that path. . Even tonight as I drove my oldest to her dad’s, we had such a discussion. About a friend I had at her age, who was up to no good, and who was not a good friend after all. AFter I realized this, I found a really GOOD friend. ANd life wqas better. People making bad choices and who don;t even care, never really a good person to be around. IMHO. Especially at 13, (or any age) when they are trying to get you to do the same!
those are the priceless moments, Bloom. the ones they’ll remember and treasure. you’re doing good, Momma!
for those who have to share their kids every other weekend:
hormones. pms.
thought i’d share this place for anyone needing encouragement:
https://unshakablehope.wordpress.com/
So true!!!
@Bloom: “more than two links automatically …” That’s cool. I understood that.
“How did you get engaged in six days and stay married for thirty years.”
Here’s a cliche that I always thought was naive / uninformed / stupid: A guy doesn’t get married until he is ready to. But when he is ready to, he looks around to see who is available at that moment, and picks who he thinks is the best fit.
No long searching process. No long vetting process. Because he doesn’t get married until he is ready to. And part of “being ready to” is having decided in his mind what is most important to him in the partner he is looking for.
Thought the cliche was stupid – until I realized that that is basically what I did. The first time I saw her, heard her speak, saw how she carried herself, saw how she interacted with others (all this happened the first time I saw her) I knew that I would like to marry her. I just knew that, but didn’t put any more thought to it. With a nod to what Stephanie recently said about herself and the older guy here or at Spawney’s, she was 15 and going out with a guy who was 21. Dad built houses and 21-year-old was building one for himself, so they were a good fit. Guess that overrode whether a 15-year-old and a 21-year-old were also a good fit. At any rate, I liked her but she was otherwise occupied.
Met her at 15. Knew I wanted to marry her. Married her when she was 20. Nothing changed in my mind and feelings between 15 and 20 other than she had to finish high school and I was drafted. We were better suited to build a life together five years after I met her. But had she been my age, and if the draft wasn’t an issue, we could have gotten married immediately after I met her and nothing would have been (much) different than getting married after knowing each other for five years.
The older I got, the more stories I heard that mimicked mine: “the first time I saw her I knew I wanted to make her my wife”. As a guy, generally, when you are ready (which means you sort of know what you want), and an acceptable prospect comes into view, there’s not much to be gained by waiting.
The boxer Muhammad Ali said “A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” (#16 in the list). That is, the norm is to change over time. That is a feature not a bug. Men and women are different. They are likely to change in different directions. Also a feature, not a bug. Because of these two truths, plus others, any marriage is going to take work, regardless of how quickly the two decide they want to marry. Any partnership, business or otherwise, takes work if it is to survive – because partnerships require the cooperation of humans. Bloom and others have acknowledged that fact here and elsewhere.
A business partnership survives, not because the partners are devoted to each other (which they may well be), but because the partners agree that all are devoted to the reasons / principles why the business was created in the first place. That is true also of the partnership called marriage. When folks are in it (marriage) only because they are devoted to each other, that marriage will falter when each begins to change and the devotion to each other begins to wane. When folks are in it (marriage) because both are devoted to external principles (obeying God), that devotion to the external principles will hold things together through the changes – so that the partners get a chance to discover that the devotion to each other returns in new and different ways after the changes occur. Rinse and repeat, as life is one long series of changes, whether you are married or not.
Meant to put this link to partnership in the above post. It has some pretty good stuff that can be applied to making marriages work also.
The lady desiring marriage can hit the gym, cook up a storm and put $50 in the bank.
No amount of presentation-tweaking will change the underlying dynamic:
marriage is a horrible bet for men, and will remain so until alimony laws are repealed.
God save you all.
oops $50k
RichardP – that was true for both my husbands. they both decided right away they were going to marry me. my 2nd husband told me on our first date he knew he was going to marry me.
Yep Richard… husband knew within only a couple of weeks, really sweet looking back on it.
And I’m sure you were very different from the man who was interested in me back then! He was a classic bad boy type but I didn’t really “get it” – I was so incredibly naive and I’m just thankful for my parents protecting me in multiple ways.
My freshman year there was a man 6 years older that was VERY good and sweet and kind and I liked him… we were set up on a blind date by friends and family. He was from a wealthy family in our city, but he was too shy. He’s the one that told me years later that he really really liked me back then but just didn’t think I was interested in him.
He would have been a good husband I’m sure. But he just didn’t have the courage to pursue better.
*freshman year of college! Not high school!
There is a new post at Spawny’s
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2018/02/18/hookup-sex/
Yes Richard I have heard many men say the same, they knew instantly or near so. Perhaps there is something for the ladies to learn from that…if he’s not ready, he won’t see any as a prospect? If he’s unsure, he’s not feeling it? Would you say those are fair?
For women it seems the decision making is less cut and dry, which may lead to projecting that guys just need “more time” to figure it out? I have rarely, maybe never, heard a woman say she knew at first sight. I am sure it happens but I would guess women are more likely to feel maybe instant attraction or not, but also will watch a man over time and circumstances before deciding, “he’s the one!” And of course traditionally he either asked or he didn’t, but extended dating for him to “figure it out” was likely discouraged. The old courtship model was based on a man being ready, feeling she was a potential mate, approaching her male kin, and then giving them a short and highly supervised time for her to either say yes or no. If he wasn’t already sure he would be willing if she was, he simply didn’t approach. Also then, once a match was made that was it, not this nonsense today where people already married “aren’t sure…”
Or to put it more crudely, guys in the manosphere might call it “the boner test.” It’s either a yes or a no. For women it seems to be based on multi factors, some only accessible w time vs. a yes/no instant thing.
Rpg
Should explain.
Knew each other in high school, grade 11 to 13. Hung out constantly as friends but never romantically. Got to see each other in social, group, family, romantic settings as observers.
That was the key, observing without the rose coloured glasses of wuv.
Then went to college and “saw the world”. Upon returning to home town saw each other as same practical, family oriented people if anything now more aware of the world.
So six days ” romantically”, eight years observationally.
And yes we went thru the year from hell. Also the usual ups and downs of raising a family. Still here though.
@Bloom: “Perhaps there is something for the ladies to learn from that…if he’s not ready, he won’t see any as a prospect? If he’s unsure, he’s not feeling it? Would you say those are fair?”
That is exactly it. I would only alter that to say a guy who is looking for a hookup relationship for sex only is going to “see” what turns him on. If that is what you want and are looking for, then dress the part / act the part. I marriage is what you are trying to attract – presenting yourself (dress / attitude) as a good lay isn’t going to get the guy you want.
@Bloom: “I have rarely, maybe never, heard a woman say she knew at first sight.”
I thought of saying that, but didn’t. Figured it would carry more weight if it came from a female. Plus, my experience has been that, but maybe others have seen differently. Seems my initial thought was legitimate.
This is a non-standard post. Maybe even a little weird. But I’m serious.
@Stephanie: ” He was a classic bad boy type but I didn’t really “get it” – I was so incredibly naive and I’m just thankful for my parents protecting me in multiple ways.”
@Bloom and others have made similar statements over time.
earl linked to a blog article at Spawny’s written by Leah La Rosa. I made some comments about the logic of what I read, based only on what I had read. I have since explored her site and read more of her writing and watched her videos on YouTube. My attitude toward what she said has changed somewhat since it seems that her diatribe about BS Guys was triggered by one particular guy (rather than multiple guys) who she ended up having to get a restraining order against. He is from a wealthy family and played football (it seems) for USC 5 or 6 years ago or so.
She has graduated from Journalism school (Georgia) and wishes to pursue a career in journalism. She is having trouble finding work because she wants her employer to meet her needs. She is verbalizing that she expects to get hired by an organization that will meet her needs (let me keep my long hair, etc.)
It occurs to me that she is a prime candidate for the wisdom dispensed here by Ame and Bloom and Stephanie (and whoever I’m unintentionally leaving out). And it seems that the following might be a good way for her to spend her time while coming around to the reality that she has to give an employer a good reason to hire her – by being what they want.
This article details the genesis and dissolution of the trouble relationship.
This article is the one earl linked to.
I think she has the seeds of a good article or story in the “When you When I” post, if she would take the word “When” off of the beginning of each statement. And then combine the statements into coherent paragraphs.
Thinking thusly, it occurred to me that Stephanie and Bloom and others who have similar experiences could be of great benefit to young girls if you would write your own version of the “When you” post (since you have stated that you have had experiences similar to Leah’s in blowing off the warnings of others). But leave off the “When” at the beginning of each statement, and write it more as a narrative to answer these basic questions. If Leah could be convinced by a female (not male) from here to do the same and add it to the other stories, I think you could have something quite valuable. My point is that Leah wrote her When You When I post only after 5 years or so of agony. Could she have been spared the experience if she had read what she just wrote before she started the relationship with the problem guy? If not, why not? The answer to that question should be incorporated somewhere into the following list of questions. That answer, if specific enough, will maybe help other young girls recognize the same behaviors / attitudes in themselves before they get entangled as Leah did.
1. What was the initial attraction? (if you remember)
2. What was the attraction that led you to blow off the warnings of others that you should maybe back off of the relationship. (I’m assuming that some sort of cost/benefit analysis was done in your head then, even if quickly, and even if you didn’t realize you did it.) Note that this attraction need not be to the bad guy. It could be an attraction to the belief that you thought you knew better, or an attraction to the idea of “you didn’t care, things couldn’t get that bad”. Etc.
3. When did you first suspect maybe things were not all as they seemed?
4. When did you first suspect that maybe you were in trouble?
5. When did you first know that you were in trouble and had made a mistake?
6. What internal process did you have to go through before you could ask for help? It is not easy for most folks to admit they were wrong and that they need the help of the very people they initially blew off. So I’m assuming there is some internal work that had to be done first before reaching out for help. If I am wrong about this, then state that at this particular point in your story.
In reading Leah’s account, I was struck by her persistence in the face of evidence that a guy would have immediately taken to heart and walked away from. My immediate question was “what are you getting out of this that makes you persist in the face of stuff that is damaging to you”? That is the underlying question I hope can be answered in the responses to Points 3 – 6.
7. What was the reaction of those you reached out to for help? “You made your bed; now lie in it”? Or happy that you had asked for help and eager to give it?
8. What was the process of extricating yourself from the relationship like? Quick? Drawn out? Smooth? Traumatic?
9. What internal affect did this process with the bad guy have on your ability to trust other men? Did it change the cues that you started looking for in other men? You can probably flesh out this section in ways I can’t even imagine, so have at it.
I’m sure the ladies can think of more stuff that would be pertinent to cover here. But, again, This article seems to be a good template for the order of things and the topics to be discussed.
The point is – if you document behaviors the way Leah does in her When You post, you will be providing concrete things for young girls to focus on, not just abstract ideas. And – if you don’t feel that you can do justice to your experience with your own writing skills, engage with Leah for her to be your ghost-writer. She may get a book out of this that she can use to sell her writing skills.
If you are not interested, then nevermind.
But I’m curious whether Leah would be interested.
And whether she would pay attention to what you have to say.
But will not contact her, or comment on her posts.
That leave things up to someone here.
umm – it seems that Leah has taken down the article / blog post that earl linked to. That would be the second link I gave above. It was there twenty minutes ago. It seems to not be there now.
Found the link in a different spot. Will post it this way:
https://livinglarosa.com/2018/01/23/twenty-five-hundred-words-of-bullht/
I’m reading it right now, RP… very interesting to see her viewpoint.
I see Spawny’s link showed up on that post. I wonder if y’all meant to do that?
Anyway… the post I just read doesn’t wasn’t the “when you when I” post. Just the one about “boys” and “bullshit.”
I’ll read the other one soon. I don’t know RP, she seems to know what to do (don’t fall for what is too good to be true or the bullshit), but also craves a certain bad boy type that sounds like the dark triad traits. She’s gorgeous so she probably attracts a lot of men like that, way more than a plain girl would.
And then the good men may be too intimidated to approach. Or she may not be as excited by them (hence her known “type”).
Honestly sometimes women like that don’t seem to want to really change and fall in love with someone they’d term “boring.” She may finally “give in” and actually marry someone like that – a steady good man who treats her well. But she sounds like the kind that would lose attraction pretty early on and then they’d have marriage issues.
I’ll have to read her other one, but that’s what I got from this one.
WOW!!!!!! Her other post is so horrifically sad!!!
I understood all of it… made me feel sick somewhat reading it.
There are so many things she could have done differently… it would have helped if her parents were involved more (like I said at Spawny’s before I actually read her post).
I went through a few things in her list but avoided them very quickly due to just being aware that I was worth SO much more than that! That came from my parents and from knowing I was a child of God, though. I don’t think she has that value that comes from knowing God loves you and created you.
I felt the same reading it Stephanie. Sadly it is the experience of so many girls today, way too young and wo the proper guidance/protection to deal with. Too bad her dad didn’t chase that rat bastard off right off. Even if the daughter hated him for it then…
I think she stayed in large part, because of low self-image or something. I know that’s thrown around a lot in the manosphere as being fake, but what one earth would propel a girl to stay through that kind of treatment other than thinking deep down, that she deserved it or couldn’t do better.
My husband had a friend in high school and college who was like this to his girlfriend who was a few years younger. He did cheat on her when she was still stuck in high school… they are married now and seem happy on social media… and I hope they are. But he treated her like what this woman went through for a lonnnng time.
I think some women just wouldn’t put up with that and would leave pretty quickly. They know they can and will do better if they expect better, so they leave.
And then there are girls who stay through this kind of treatment. But she seems like she’s learned and understands it was wrong. The only thing now though is that if her future husband had ANY desire to lead or have some control of their relationship, it would be VERY hard for her to allow him to or to trust someone after something like that.
Appropriate song. I think every girl has one guy like that at least… probably…
Yes Stephanie, it’s so heartbreaking. And hard to say if she was already low self esteem or if the experience made her so? But yes, rather than try harder and harder I wish girls in such a situation would see — he ain’t worth it! So much of what he was projecting wasn’t even about her. And she could not have ever been whatever enough. His “reasons” we’re just excuses. At that age, can young girls discern that? Maybe those who have been prepared could, but most probably would not be. And yes, how sad that his view of her supposed faults and lack became her view of herself. Young women need others (their men) protecting them from this. But society today doesn’t support that. Instead they tell girls to “make their own choices” and other things that sound good but really set them up for situations like this. I hope she figures it out. I really do. And that all girls her age do. Vs. a lifetime of this.
wow.
those are some really hard questions you’ve asked, RichardP.
my first husband fits into a lot of this. there are differences – we didn’t meet till we were both in college. i was 19 when i met him, and we married when i was 21. to my knowledge he didn’t cheat on me till after we’d been married about ten years, and i didn’t learn about it until we’d been married for 17 years. here are a few similarities:
When you were so good at saying sorry. When you could be really sweet.
When the highs were high and the lows were so low. When there could never be an in-between.
my first husband did a lot of these things. my girls and i often say: “When he was good, no one was better; but when he was bad, he was really, really bad.”
When I supported all of your stupid dreams. When you laughed at mine.
he was incredibly talented and brilliant, but he was jealous of simple me. it always befuddled me. my husband’s jealousy was different from her b/f’s, but it was intense and not something i could control – meaning i couldn’t be any more less of who i was to stop him from being jealous of me.
When we posted a picture after church with adoring comment about our perfection. When our pictures were a cover-up of the dysfunction and pain.
ours was before social media, but we never, ever missed church and were ‘the perfect couple.’
When I learned how to lie. When I learned how to be fake.
there is always the public couple and the private couple.
When everything was about you. … I felt dull and invisible. … When I held back tears. When I did not think I was beautiful.
sigh. yes.
When you said I was the disrespectful one.
always. always told me i was ‘disrespectful.’ everything i did he didn’t like was ‘disrespectful.’
When you accused me of everything that you were guilty for.
he didn’t accuse me of ‘everything’ he was guilty of, but he assumed i was bad.
When everything was a complete mind fuck. When nothing ever made sense. When I could never win.
this. absolutely this. it was never, never, never enough.
When I kept trying to do better for you.
always. always. but it was never enough.
When the harder I tried, the meaner you got.
When I could never get it right. When my heart constantly felt these sharp stabs. When I thought I was loosing my mind.
always. i told him once that he might as well get a knife and stab me b/c it felt like he was anyway. we’d been married well over ten years at that point but can’t remember exactly, i just remember where we lived at the time.
When I sat on the ground in a parking deck that day, not caring what happened to me.
lots of ‘not caring what happened to me’ and having to build myself back up.
When I was scared to leave.
When you can truly only hate someone you’ve loved
When I did and said everything you wanted to avoid the battle of consequences. When I kept silent, if I was unhappy. When I did everything in my power to avoid a fight.
When that never worked. When you would always find something.
i’ve heard the opposite of love is fear. it has taken a lot of years and work for me not to fear to the same level i did with him. i still fear a lot, but not nearly as much. i’ve come a long way.
When you looked at me with complete disgust and rage. …
When I was not myself.
When I felt worthless.
i didn’t know who i was. took years to begin to figure that out. i will probably always struggle with feeling worthless and fear rage.
When you were so good at making it seem like everything was normal.
yes.
When your family was judgmental, strict and cold.
to the extreme.
When you are a façade and hypocrite. When you were tough on the outside, but when you were emotionally unstable underneath. When you would complain about your life. When you would complain about your career.
yes. this.
When panic disorder and anxiety were my aftermath. When I still knew you were watching. When I could feel your presence. When I was always on edge. When I couldn’t breathe.
he recorded everything our girls did and everything i did. he took me back to court and got court orders. and he kept records so he could take me back to court again. he used our girls to get to me, and he almost destroyed them in the process.
When I tried therapy. When I felt too sane and silly, so I stopped going.
When I was healed, and in ways, I will always be healing.
therapy was a life-saver for me. i am eternally grateful for my therapist. and healing is a continuous process.
When little things secretly trigger a fear
i do have ‘body memories’ from time-to-time – mostly from the abuse from my parents. i can usually prevent these, but sometimes they happen anyway.
When I have nothing, but the truth on my side.
and God. when i have God.
When I forgive you.
the most powerful thing we can do. i have forgiven him. i haven’t forgotten everything, but i let most of it go. reading stuff like this brings a lot of it up again, but i let it go faster than before.
and i’m sooo grateful my girls have forgiven him, too.
okay, Richard … i think i’m ready to answer these.
1. What was the initial attraction? (if you remember)
When I first met my first husband we were working at the same place while in college. He was handsome and confident and flirty and very smart. And he pursued me. I’ve heard the guys out here say that it’s amazing what a woman will do when you just ask … as i’ve thought about that, i’ve found it to be true. he asked; i said yes.
i met his parents on our first date – which was to our college homecoming weekend festivities. his parents had graduated from there so were in town and staying with local friends, so i met quite a few important people in his life. i liked them. they liked me (most of them – one didn’t for awhile, but then she later became my biggest fan).
we talked well, easily. he’d been dating another girl at the time who had previous arrangements for homecoming weekend, so he asked me to go … then ditched her. it was nice.
2. What was the attraction that led you to blow off the warnings of others that you should maybe back off of the relationship. (I’m assuming that some sort of cost/benefit analysis was done in your head then, even if quickly, and even if you didn’t realize you did it.) Note that this attraction need not be to the bad guy. It could be an attraction to the belief that you thought you knew better, or an attraction to the idea of “you didn’t care, things couldn’t get that bad”. Etc.
the warnings … i’ve wondered about that over the years. though i really tried to find someone who wasn’t like my dad, i did anyway. i learned years later that he was actually more like my paternal grandfather, which is interesting. the ways he was like my dad were kind of hidden, and i hadn’t worked through all the ‘stuff’ from my past yet – mostly b/c i didn’t begin to remember it all until about ten years ago.
i did seek out advice. i talked to a marriage professor at the college. i talked to a counselor at the college. and i talked to my college pastor at my church. the marriage prof wanted to go into my childhood rather than address my boyfriend. the counselor was weird, so i dismissed her. the college pastor told me i needed to find someone while in college b/c it would be harder when i got out, and he thought b/f was a good choice.
3. When did you first suspect maybe things were not all as they seemed?
probably during the big show-down with my parents two months before our wedding. it was terrible. my parents and now-fiance made me choose between them. i sure as heck wasn’t going back to my abusive crazy parents, so i chose him.
this is where it is interesting, though. i believe my dad saw that he would not be good for me, but since my dad never took his authority over me, since he abused me, since he didn’t have my respect in any way, i discounted anything he would have advised.
a couple of things here …
1. my mother never respected my dad or showed him honor or submitted to him. had she done so, i would have, too, despite him being an abuser. my mother was also abusive, as i’ve shared before, but, as is typical, she blamed my dad. my dad blamed her. it was … lovely.
2. even ‘bad dad’s’ know a bad man for their daughter when they see one, and their warnings should be heeded. i didn’t know this – i had never been taught anywhere that my dad should be honored or respected or that he should be my protector. he never did protect me but threw me out to the world or ignored that i was thrown out to the world, even at a very, very young age. actually, my parents both thought it was wonderful that i was so independent at such a very young age (we’re talking 8, 9 years old – i could be all over town and they’d not have a clue, and it was not a safe town.)
4. When did you first suspect that maybe you were in trouble?
during our first year of marriage. it didn’t take long. i think i’ve detailed it more in my About Me on my blog.
5. When did you first know that you were in trouble and had made a mistake?
by the time i was married, in my mind, i was married. period. there was no ‘out.’ so mistake or not, i was in for life.
when i was in therapy, there was a time when we were both seeing the same counselor during the year we were separated, and my therapist said to me, “I think you’re going to need to decide if you’re going to be single and divorced or single and married, because I don’t see him making the choices to get better.” i told him that i could not divorce him and would be single and married if that’s how it had to be. we divorced because he decided to leave.
6. What internal process did you have to go through before you could ask for help? It is not easy for most folks to admit they were wrong and that they need the help of the very people they initially blew off. So I’m assuming there is some internal work that had to be done first before reaching out for help. If I am wrong about this, then state that at this particular point in your story.
that’s huge because this was during years before internet. even to say the word ‘porn’ for me was … huge. that sounds crazy now, but it wasn’t then. it wasn’t talked about. sex addiction wasn’t talked about much less widely known. and it wasn’t like you could go online and seek help. i had to go to the library and look and look and read many different books to see if i could find something. and i didn’t have a close relationship with my mom or family with whom i could share. and i did not share any of this with my friends – not even my bff’s. it was marriage, and that was private.
In reading Leah’s account, I was struck by her persistence in the face of evidence that a guy would have immediately taken to heart and walked away from. My immediate question was “what are you getting out of this that makes you persist in the face of stuff that is damaging to you”? That is the underlying question I hope can be answered in the responses to Points 3 – 6.
i did have a kind of security i didn’t growing up. it’s distorted, but it was there. i also had financial security – he was brilliant in the corporate world and made good money. it was the first time in my life i had real financial security. years later my dad’s business would take off, he would retire, sell out, and make millions, but when we’d first married, my dad’s business wasn’t there yet.
7. What was the reaction of those you reached out to for help? “You made your bed; now lie in it”? Or happy that you had asked for help and eager to give it?
i’m still stunned, somewhat, at the responses of the 3 i asked when i was dating. i’d have thought they’d ask pointed questions about my boyfriend rather than ask stupid, irrelevant questions that didn’t matter. we also went to our pastor for pre-marital counseling, and that was a total joke. i did approach a speaker at a woman’s retreat, once, and she told me to have him attend the men’s retreat her husband led; very disappointing b/c it took a LOT of guts for me to ask her for advice.
8. What was the process of extricating yourself from the relationship like? Quick? Drawn out? Smooth? Traumatic?
for me it was a process of learning to live in the marriage i had. sex addiction is progressive, and during my 2nd pregnancy, he took it to another level which made him intensely angry and violent at home. i knew he had dramatically changed, but i didn’t know what caused it. again … home computers were still relatively new – we didn’t get a home computer until after my 2nd was born. after she was born, he became more intense, so i went to a counselor at our church and said to her (this is before the therapist mentioned above), “I do not want to know how to get divorced. I want to know how to live with this man I’m married to.” she gave me great counsel and wisdom. she also introduced me to an older woman who began to mentor me – a priceless relationship that ended when she passed away several years later.
9. What internal affect did this process with the bad guy have on your ability to trust other men? Did it change the cues that you started looking for in other men? You can probably flesh out this section in ways I can’t even imagine, so have at it.
this is a challenging question b/c it’s mixed up with my dad, too. my therapist told me, “Ame, your dad is just one man, he is not all men.” that clicked in my brain. i still have ‘body memories’ at times, and i avoid being in rooms of men or surrounded by men in various places. i don’t think i’m great about ‘clues’ in men. i have to ask my husband a lot.
i really believe i, and all women, need the protection of men. if i had understood this on any level all those years ago, i’d have chosen my dad and ended my engagement two months before the wedding.
The point is – if you document behaviors the way Leah does in her When You post, you will be providing concrete things for young girls to focus on, not just abstract ideas. And – if you don’t feel that you can do justice to your experience with your own writing skills, engage with Leah for her to be your ghost-writer. She may get a book out of this that she can use to sell her writing skills.
i’ve been asked to write a book about my life story, but i have resisted that. the main reason is that i will not do anything that could hurt my daughters, and a book like that could most certainly hurt them. if, when they are older, they believe it should be written, i might consider it.
the anonymity of the internet allows me to share a lot more than i would in most circumstances. i do help those women God brings in my path irl. most are not willing to listen to a lot, but most usually listen so ‘some.’ i’ve had women tell me later, “I should have listened to you.” by then it’s too late.
idk what would help women in various circumstances. and there’s so much info out there now. it would truly have to be a God thing. i do have many journals from over the years, and i printed out a lot of the emails between my therapist and myself as i worked through so much.
Good post. The whole idea of “taking her home to meet Mom,” is absolutely true. I’ve met and dated a lot of women over the years, very very few of them got the privilege to meet my mom and family. Those were the “keepers” at that particular time. Another way I’ll put it is like this: there are A LOT of women out there that I would have sex with, very few I would take home to meet Mom. Again, great post. 👍