boundries, dating, marriage, red pill, relationships, risk, self-preservation, trust, truth
Long ago, a noted manosphereain gave me this good advice when evaluating new love or other more platonic interests (like new friends, coworkers, and such): Verify then trust.
In other words, give things some time, slow it down intentionally, let people show you who they are. People may be able to sustain their best behavior for a short time, but if they have ill intent, they will simply bounce to an easier mark than prove up.
People who do have good intent will not even question you verifying it. They have nothing to lose, there is no act. It would not even occur to them.
People who question it or try to make you feel bad about it — no matter how many sad stories of being the innocent wronged they can tell to justify this (Red flag right there! Never wrong? Always wronged? Time and again? Really???) beware. Reasonable and good boundaries avoid problems, they don’t create them. If someone has problems with such, take it as a sign.
Verify THEN trust. Not trust THEN verify. Good advice for anyone navigating life. It will never do you wrong, and it can head off all sorts of trouble.
What do you think? Please share in the comments.
“Who are you, Master?” He asked
“Eh? What?” Said Tom sitting up and his eyes glinting in the gloom, “Don’t you know my name yet? That’s the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?”
In the house of Bombadil.
Each is what each is.
When they think they are alone each reverts to what they are.
Why so many are fooled, as they are not free to be what they are.
Also the greatest gift is to be safe enough to allow another to be what they truly are
Forgive the trek reference but this is the closest I have ever seen to explaining it.
It even gets an emotionless android to pause to process betrayal.
“And yet you put yourself at risk??
Every single time (with a smile.)”
Risk. Believe. Love.
But be aware.
And if you are betrayed.
Heal. Recover. Grow.
And risk again.
In my (former, and future) business, trusting the wrong person has consequences greater than “I can’t believe I did that.” It took me a while to apply that truism to intersexual relations, and my son #2 and I are paying the price for that naivete.
I spent an hour on the phone today with a decently smart guy who wanted to vent and whine about how so-and-so betrayed his trust and fucked up a lot of stuff. We’re not talking his best friend boffing his wife while he was away, the consequences are worse than that. But he reminded me of myself,15 years ago, and I employed (in a Russian-majority outfit) someone who wore Chanel and knew what she was doing with a recently divorced man. Was she a sparrow? Don’t know. She did work for Gorbachev in a prior iteration. When I broke up with her, I did meet some sporty types who claimed an affiliation with her.
I have an odd relationship with a woman now. I observed her, and casually interacted with her, for five years, before I touched her face. It’s a great feeling to trust another human.
Very recently I had a problem at work. It forced me to think about this coldly. I told my sponsor, who is a kind of godfather for me, and is very pissed off at me at the moment: “Jim, I’ll go to jail for you and my ex- and my children, and a few other people. I’m not going to jail for some incompetent asshole I just met.” Everyone needs to decide what trust is, and whom they trust. The number is probably a lot lower than the pretty-lie bourgeois Truman World crowd would like to admit.
A new post at Spawny’s there is
i don’t know that this has always been my strength. i look back on the people who wounded me the most, and i think i needed an outside source to help me see more clearly what i obviously didn’t see myself.
all that has made me v.e.r.y slow and cautious with letting people in now – perhaps too much so. my brain plays out all these scenarios, and none of them are good.
time is a good thing. being patient and telling myself there is still enough time to let them prove themselves is a good thing.
my weakness is i hate to hurt people.
i have a tiny number of people whom i’d trust with my real self, and that’s probably very healthy. meeting people going forward, though, has me very skeptical and cautious.
Fnu Mnu Lnu said:
if i had paid attention to the lies and inappropriate things she had been involved in, i would have never married a liar. well, not that liar.
the hardest thing is to NOT ignore the red flags that appear, months after developing a relationship. you already have an investment in that person, and that makes it harder to admit the truth to yourself about that person.
It is a very difficult thing. To live with realistic awareness.
To know people lie, cheat, manipulate for selfish ends.
To not be naive and trusting to the untrustworthy.
Yet not be so scared, jaded or angry that you never risk again.
Without others to confide in, play with, laugh with life becomes exceedingly dull.
Finding the line as to what potential wounds each can bare balanced against a good life well shared. To each their own.
As Ame said
“i have a tiny number of people whom i’d trust with my real self, and that’s probably very healthy. meeting people going forward, though, has me very skeptical and cautious.”
George Liquor American said:
SFC Ton said:
Ford trucks, Harley Davidson motorcycles, Colt rifles, American Pit Bull Terriers and the Ranger next me.
And the A-10 driver overhead.
Farm Boy said:
And Justin nowhere to be seen. And without influence
Gonna disagree with the RPG here. Think she got it backwards. A lot. Trust … but verify … and then only some. Everybody’s got baggage. Something they did. Something they said. Something … that later on … they are not proud of. And you can’t take it back. You can’t take any of it back. You can leave a legacy of who you are and what you stand for though. And hopefully its the right things. Did you fuck up along the way ? Sure you did. Are you a perfect human being ? Nope. And neither is anyone else. Do you want someone to disregard the sum of your life’s experiences because you fucked up a time or two like everyone else does ? Did they get caught ? Cause there are lots and lots of people who do shitty things and don’t get caught and lots and lots of decent human being who do next to nothing wrong and get their souls crushed. Who’s side are you on ?
In case anyone cares … I probably saved a human life tonight. My sister. Cost me $600 and made me realize that I’m a human being … who cares about other human beings. She was there when I fucked up. And now I’m there for her. We all deserve caring and support. And sometimes … we reach the end of our rope and can’t go on. And, god willing, somebody reaches out a helping hand … so that it can go on. And hopefully get better.
How it turns out … haven’t a clue. But I did what I could.
@mega this is true too. It’s a balance between jaded and wide open. Some get more leeway than others. Good that you help your sister.
Mega – there’s a lot of truth here. we all need forgiveness for something. or a few or more somethings.
do hope it works out with your sister.
When you’re in prison, and I don’t mean the county jail, I mean a supermax federal prison, who will visit or even write? Those are the people you can trust.
When you’re in the hospital and your face looks like a dog someone drove over with a Kenworth, who visits? Not anyone who thinks your job is to be tough, handsome, funny and rich, that’s fershur. But there may be one person (Mrs. Smith in my case) you can trust.
That’s a tough opinion, because it excludes most children, wives, colleagues. But ask yourself: Who will visit me in Canon City? when you’re thinking about your family and friends. Most relationships turn out to be matters of convenience and expectation.
One of my friends is just out of prison (and I don’t mean the county jail). No one will rent him an apartment so his big event this week was moving, in the halfway house or whatever it is, to a room where he doesn’t have to sleep in a bunk bed. Two other men in the room, though.
truth. harsh times weed out your friends, and I found I had much fewer than I thought. which is why i’m so leery about making new friends … and why I question my own judgement on being able to. i’m more willing to wait and be patient while time proves who a person is or is not than I was when I was younger.
I am the same Ame, finding with age I trust fewer, not more. And agreed, we are all a mix of good and bad – it’s not so much only trusting people who are perfect (bc we’ve all made mistakes) as it is sorting the harmful from the harmless.
I think the term you are looking for in regards to this is discernment.
This would be something over just trusting people…this would be having the ability to decide what is truth and what is error…good and evil. Having good judgement in these regards will be very helpful.
While it’s true that we are all sinners…it’s good to know which type of sinner you are dealing with. A repentant one or one who is all in with it…because it’s very important to cut the ‘all in’ sinners out.
sorting the harmful from the harmless
this. yes. this.
Farm Boy said:
There is a new post at Spawny’s
Yes, this is true. We should be open to people, should be open to trust, BUT at the same time every new relation should start with cautious. Sadly ( very hard to understand for me), but some people are just… do bad things. Betray, forget, hurt you. Be kind, but don’t let make a fool out of you.
Watch your back…because no one else will.
One who will….priceless.
@Ame: “… truth. harsh times weed out your friends, and I found I had much fewer than I thought.”
Lord when all my work is done
Bless my life and grant me one,
SFC Ton said:
I trust Sky6. Not in the magical wish granting friendly old dude who gives us candy and new mini vans if were extra good sprt of way most folks do. I trust Sky6 to welcome my battered, toren and sin stain soul into His house when my tribulations are done and I cross over the river Jordan
is ‘Sky6’ a name you’ve given to God? or does it originate from somewhere else? curious minds want to know 😉
There’s already a name for God out there…the name above every other name.
SFC Ton said:
My 1st CSM was a living legend in the special operations world, featuring heavily in 3 books about Vietnam. He is one of the foundational men/ mentors of my life, the guiding hand that brought me to the conventional infantry units after my my most serious injury and the man who convinced me to stay in the army as a duty owed to the young men coming up behind me and not as something owed to the army or america…. though the army has done right by me after retirement so we’re squared there.
Radio call signs…. 6 means commander. So if you are bravo company commander you are bravo 6.
Any rate, him and the other Vietnam vets referred to The Almighty as Sky 6.
Not sure if I explained that before, I won’t again
SFC Ton said:
Chode’ism or Autism….. I’ll let the viewer decide
@earl: “There’s already a name for God out there … ”
This “name” thing has intrigued me for most of my life.
“I tell you,” he replied, “if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out.” (Luke 19:40 NIV)
The stones will cry out: In Aramaic? Hebrew? Greek? Latin? English? Swahili?
I’ve always been intrigued by the thought put forth by some that, if we don’t use the “right” words, God won’t know we are talking to him.
Jesus said that the only way to God was through him (Jesus). But he also said that no one can come to him unless God draws them (John 14:6; John 6:44) Does God only draw those who speak one of the languages I listed above? Can God draw someone who speaks a language that we don’t even know exists? Can God draw someone who does not even know that God exists? What name would such a person use to get God’s attention? How does that person need a name if he doesn’t even know that God exists? Perhaps God responds when people use one of the names we recognize as “legitimate”. But perhaps God operates like the Echo Dot – always on, listening for sounds from everybody /anybody that indicate they need him to draw them to himself, through Jesus.
(Now, consider whether God’s Echo Dot is always on on the moon or on Mars, should we ever get there. Or does he just listen to sounds coming from the earth?)
Rhetorical questions all. Please don’t try to answer them here. Just pointing out that, once we step outside of our own social perspective, a lot of what we “believe” doesn’t hold up in light of what God actually says. Not that what we believe is wrong necessarily. Just that what we believe is not all there is that is correct.
Kind of like the five blind men and the elephant. Or, seeing through a glass, darkly, or something.
Blah Blah Blah, she sang … holding onto the elephant’s tail.
Is that all there is, she sang.
No, said he. That’s not all there is.
Maybe for you, who cannot see, that’s all there is. But not for everyone.
Let those who have eyes, see.
Otherwise, let them hear – if they have ears.
Otherwise … ? Let them taste, touch, smell others?
At some point the imagery can get ridiculous.
Point is this. Due to cognitive limits on rationality, each of us can only know a part of the whole. Very few, if any (other than God), can know the whole of the whole.
So – who ya gonna call on.
Just pointing out that, once we step outside of our own social perspective, a lot of what we “believe” doesn’t hold up in light of what God actually says. Not that what we believe is wrong necessarily. Just that what we believe is not all there is that is correct.
interesting … my Oldest and i were out to eat, and two older couples (one probably in their late 40’s, the other in their 60’s or early 70’s) were sitting at the booth next to us. i heard the comment (and only this much of the comment), “they can’t even sit through sixty minutes of church.” then they all had to hold hands and have a looong prayer before they ate (one of my all-time pet-peeves … not praying before a meal, but doing so in public. i mean, if you’re going to go into a restaurant to eat, it’s not a surprise once you’re in there that you’re sitting at a table to eat food, so … why not pray before you even get out of the car?! … okay, end rant). the only other thing i noticed was that they didn’t all know each other before the meal as the fourth to the party introduced himself when he walked up to the table.
ohhh, to be my younger self and to be able to leave that alone! but, alas, i didn’t. (Oldest graciously left to the entrance of the restaurant as she didn’t want to even listen in.)
i wasn’t rude; i was kind. i simply said that i overheard the comment, and that there are a lot of reasons one cannot sit through sixty minutes of church, one being that i have a sped kid who was not able to for a looong time (and might not even be able to now on any given day).
bless their hearts, it was almost unfair of me to stop and comment b/c it would have been a rare case for them to be able to ‘win.’
“Well, it’s like going to a restaurant. If you have one bad experience, it doesn’t mean the restaurant is bad.” (hahaha! ohhh, if it were ONLY one.bad.experience! i gave a few brief examples in one short sentence; argument over).
“You need to forgive.” (bwahahaha! if only forgiving people changed them! i assured him all those church people were forgiven, but they are not to be trusted.)
“I have an autistic child … ” (oops! bless her heart! i’ve got one, too!!!)
one woman kept trying to draw me into the churchian rhetoric – all of which i am well trained in.
i simply said kindly that if they want people to come to their church, they might want to be careful what they say in public.
thank you for explaining that. i did not know that 6 means commander – that all makes much more sense now 🙂
He is one of the foundational men/ mentors of my life, the guiding hand that brought me to the conventional infantry units after my my most serious injury and the man who convinced me to stay in the army as a duty owed to the young men coming up behind me and not as something owed to the army or america….
that’s … priceless. priceless that a man took the time to mentor you … and even more so that you’ve been willing to turn around and do the same. thank you – to both of you.
though the army has done right by me after retirement so we’re squared there.
very glad to hear that.
A new post at Spawny’s there is
A very good comment thread at a now sadly defunct blig once discussed home men and women view trust differently.
To paraphrase, men only trust other men after those men have proven themselves worthy of it, likely bc trust between men means your life in a hunt or battle or heroic feat.
Women, on the other hand, seem to take a trust till proven otherwise approach. Perhaps in the village of eons ago, when women likely lived in large groups w the young and very old, this maybe also served in a survival way.
Not sure the trust till proven otherwise rule works in a largely anonymous, transient, and disconnected culture as well as it did in an ancient tribal village where everyone pretty much knew everyone’s biz and history and family.
Sarcasm but how many womenz feel this.
You wanted to be in a man’s world…you got it.
(But we always sucked it up on behalf of you)
Thank you, RPG.
‘You wanted to be in a man’s world…you got it.’
And all they had to do was sacrifice their femininity and fertility for that control. And they wonder why they are unhappy and tired all the time.
David Foster said:
One thing I’ve observed: there are some individuals who are highly suspicious of people/situations where there are really no grounds for fear…yet these same individuals show unreasoning trust in cases where the warning lights should be flashing DANGER.
@ David I have noticed this too, mostly in folks who were raised by a parent w a mental illness or who were abused. They trust people like their parent but not people who they have no need to fear. Perhaps the dysfunction feels familiar and “known” and this is confused w “safe.” Sadly it sets these folks up to be misused time and again.
Not sure if Alan K is still reading, but regarding working with women and juggling their emotions and outbursts lol…
I just had to go visit with and apologize to our event sponsor (financial sponsor!!) because one of the newly elected wives decided to chew one of his men out over drinks not arriving when she thought they should have. Thankfully he’s such a kind man, but now I’m going to have to talk to our ladies to remind them to be respectful and act gracious to our volunteers and sponsors.
Lord have mercy!
And regarding verifying and trusting… when you are trying to establish a relationship (work or romantic) I bet it really IS always better to first get to know them, then verify slowly overtime what they’re telling you (assessing actions versus talk, etc.), and start trusting slowly over time… maybe a combo of those LOL.
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