Tags
Alfie Evans, children, injustice, justice, life, life support, parenting, red pill, socialized medicine
This morning I took my youngest to the dentist. Because her adult teeth are coming in and her jaw is small, the dentist pulled two baby teeth to make some room so her teeth aren’t too crowded. Plus she got a filling and sealers on all her molars.
I was doing my best, but the idea of her being put under anesthesia was really worrying me. What if something went wrong? What if there were complications? Was it the right choice? (The dentist recommended it, saying it’s less scary for the child and then they could do in one appointment what would have been three otherwise.)
I put on a brave front, reassuring her all would be fine. I could see she was also pensive, but being brave. When we walked into the dental room, she saw all the monitors and equipment and started to cry, refusing to get up in the dental chair. Luckily the kind nurses had been here before and they were able to reassure her and get her to sit in a regular chair, then they put the anesthesia mask on her face while I held her hand and kissed her head. She drifted off and we moved her into the dental chair. At this point they asked me to go out to the waiting area.
After 40 long minutes, and gentle reassurances from several other sympathetic mothers who had been in my shoes before, it was done and she was awake again. No worse for wear. Luckily none of the possible side effects (nausea, shaking, crying, disorientation, etc.) occurred and as far as she was concerned, only a few seconds had passed.
I reflected how much things in dentistry had changed since I was a child. No scary huge needles, no shot, no loud drill, no bad memories. I hope she won’t have the dental phobias I do.
Every time my children go in for a routine and minor medical procedure I think how blessed I am that they are healthy, that we aren’t there for more serious matters. I cannot imagine what parents with children who are seriously or terminally ill must go through.
Like a mom and dad right now, in The United Kingdom, whose 23-month-old son’s life hangs in the balance. Alfie Evans.
Against his parent’s wishes, hospital staff and the courts have decided to take Alfie off life support, and to deny him food and water. A mysterious and undiagnosed disorder has left the child in an unresponsive state for months, with many seizures a day. The doctors have said it is hopeless.
Alfie’s parents have been desperately reaching out for help. The Pope got involved. An Italian hospital is ready and willing to take over Alfie’s care. Italy has granted him citizenship. It is what his parents want.
But the doctors and the courts have said no. The parents cannot even take their child out of the hospital that has effectively sentenced him to death. Armed guards are at the doors to prevent their departure.
For three days and nights after being taken off life support, his mother has held him, and Alfie has remained alive. How much longer without any food or water he will live, is unknown. His parents now just want to take him home, where they can be together in peace. The hospital says no, even to this.
I cannot understand how such a thing could happen. How a medical system and a government could superseded a parent’s wishes, could deny the child’s transfer to another facility who is willing to provide care, at no cost to the system. How could that be denied? And backed up by law? It boggles the mind.
I hope that Alfie somehow defies the odds, his parents succeed in their fight to get him care elsewhere, and that perhaps a miracle answer can be found. And that the madness will end, and the medical people and courts will come to their senses.
Tonight I have my child, happy and healthy and swinging in the late afternoon sun. Seemingly no worse for wear for her trip to the dentist. I count my blessings, and pray for Alfie and his family.
What do you think? Please share in the comments.
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
gosh, it’s SO hard being a parent sometimes. my aspie girl has been under a few times, and I just have to put myself in this mental place to endure it. I hate it. I don’t handle it well overall. both my girls have medical issues I wish they didn’t have – most all due to things their dad did to them. sometimes it overwhelms me, but I have to push that aside to help them deal with this life they have … to teach them that everyone’s got something, so deal with yours and move on.
we had to take my oldest to the big city children’s hospital when she was a baby for various tests, and the things you see there … sooo hard. makes you truly grateful.
I think there’s a point we have to get to, especially with the world connecting in real time as it is with social media, where we have to place things we cannot deal with in a place that cannot diminish our ability to do what we can and need to for those God has given us. God didn’t give us everything and everyone, He gave us our own stuff. I have to be careful not to let other people’s stuff drag me to a place where i’m no longer capable of caring for my own stuff. it *feels* insensitive sometimes, but it’s really not.
Fortunate for those officials that they live in the UK. Not chest thumping at all, but my children mean much, much more to me than my life or any amount of pain. There is no way that I could move forward in my life thinking that I could have done something to protect them from someone/thing that harmed them. My third was in neonatal ICU for 3 weeks, so I know some of the helplessness that those parents are feeling. It is not something that I would wish upon anyone.
This is why we have the AR-15 (which only is symbolic because it utilizes a shitty round). The open threat is the only thing that WE can do here to protect our basic God given freedoms. Is it the right thing to do? No. But does the threat tend to keep the powerful more responsive? How does one describe a more oppressive government than the one that you just outlined?
RPG, I sincerely thank you for reminding me of my many blessings! 15 years ago, taking her home from that ICU, I said that if you ever feel that you have had a really bad day, go up to the baby ICU and take a gander at what’s going on up there. It will realign your perspective.
P.S. I am still thinking about those questions. It is a bit harder to narrow down than I had previously thought.
@ih8looking back, agreed re a more oppressive regime. It is not a good precedent, either. How the parents have not lost it, defiantly walked out, or if stopped from doing so not resorted to violence, is beyond me. I would be losing it. It is unbelievably cruel, when there could be hope. I do not see the point of the hospital and court’s stand. I am praying that God sends the archangel of healing Raphael himself, and rings to room with angels of healing, and proves to all who witness a miracle that Life is precious. And that it’s best God chooses the day and time. Not man. Not medicine. Not law.
It is the horror story of socialized medicine so many have predicted… come true. Will doctors start to justify denial of care, due to cost, or odds, or just not giving a fu(k?
It’s the cost of making the government your husband and parent.
‘Never forget that under the welfare state your children belong to the government, not you.’
https://pushingrubberdownhill.com/2018/04/27/friday-hawt-chicks-links-the-kings-day-edition/
And just for more of their out of touch control…they are monitoring the social media for those speaking out against it. Meanwhile Muslims will continue their sex rings and murderous plots unabated in the UK.
I’ve always hated the dentist. I just recently got around to having wisdom teeth out and I was very nervous. I asked for the nitrous oxide and I wish I hadn’t. That stuff made me feel strange and disoriented like I was slipping into a coma so I made them pull me off. Then I said just numb and pull, nothing else and that was fine.
I am canadian so we have no gun culture.
But the staff who did that to my family would be given “hopeless” wounds. And not instantaneous. Slow and lingering.
Expect more of this as boomers age, the ltc system is overburdened and the children of single moms gert medical power of attorney.
@ash I felt the same w nitrous. Not helpful! For me anyway
1. One of the jobs of manager, whether family, business, or government, is “allocating scarce resources among competing objectives”. Since we live on a finite planet, eventually all resources are scarce.
2. I read something recently that discussed studies which show that, generally, men must be convinced that there is at least a 50-50 chance of success before they will persist at a task – otherwise they won’t even bother with it. Women, on the other hand, will persist at something they have decided to do – past the point of harm to self.
3. Point 2 explains this statement from the mother of Jahi McMath (google that name for details): “Her mother has previously acknowledged that her daughter’s brain is severely and irreparably damaged. But Latasha Spears Winkfield said that her daughter is still alive and that her Christian belief compels her fight to keep her daughter on life support.”
These kinds of cases are never pretty. But they did not exist at all for the thousands of years of human existance prior to modern technology. For thousands of years, when the body could not support life, it simply ceased to function. That was the purest example of the cliches “only God can take a life” and “only God can give life”. It is we who have created the monster, with technology that can sustain “life” beyond all normal definitions of the word – not the state.
In a world of scarce resources and competing objectives, in a world where resources spent on brain-dead folks cannot then be spent on folks who have a better chance at recovery, who decides?
Is it fair to the person who could have recovered, but was denied resources because they were being used on one who in all probability could not recover, and so they died? Do we let the mother of the one who probably cannot ever recover make this decision? Point 2 explains why that is usually not a good idea, both for the sake of others as well as for the sake of the mother.
Some problems have no solutions. That is an uncomfortable fact of life. Is it useful, is it even moral, to encourage someone to have hope in situations where the probability of a solution is all but non-existant? GIven that the world in general, and societies in particular, have finite resources, someone must decide the answer to that question.
After considering all of the points listed above, plus others, Great Britain has decided that it will be the final arbiter of how much resources will be spent on trying to keep a child alive whose body would not otherwise sustain life. And they have also decided that they will be the advocate for the child – not the parents – in situations where trying to prolong life in a body that will not otherwise support life could be considered cruel and unusual punishment on the child.
Being that imperfect humans are the ones making these choices, they will not always be made perfectly. There will always be room for the argument that different choices could have led to better outcomes. But the world in general, and societies in specific, don’t have the resources to support the exploration of all possible outcomes in the chase to make the absolutely perfect “right choice”.
Therefore, choices must be made based on likely probabilities. Someone must make that choice. GIven Point 2 above, is it useful to those who could benefit from the scarce resources to let mothers of children who most probably won’t recover make that choice?
Great Britain has decided that it is not. And if you were the mother of a child who could maybe survive if only the resources being spent on a child who probably cannot survive were spent on your child instead – you would probably agree.
I can’t say how I would choose in a situation like this since I don’t have a child in such a situation. They only thing I can know for certain here is that I am glad I don’t have to make such a choice at the moment.
My childhood was pretty fucking miserable when it came to dealing with the dentist. I still hate them to this day. If you’re still using fluoride tooth paste, throw that shit out and just brush with baking soda.
The hospital, the judge who made the ruling, and the cops who are enforcing it, should all be ashamed of themselves.
they are too scared to address the roaming gangs of rapists, but feel empowered to terrorize this family.
fucktards!
There is a new post at Spawny’s
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2018/04/27/mentor-gap/
@Fnu Mnu Lnu said: “The hospital, the judge who made the ruling, and the cops who are enforcing it, should all be ashamed of themselves.”
The hospital made a ruling required by the state. The judge ruled that, indeed, the state required the ruling that the hospital made. The cops, employees of the state, are simply doing what they were hired to do – enforcing the will of the state.
Given that this is true, why should the hospital, the judge, or the cop be ashamed of themselves? They were not the ones that made the law that they must enforce.
The criticism, if any, should be directed at those in the government who made the ruling that must be enforced.
If you haven’t yet, I invite you to read through my post a short distance above yours. It provides some perspective that is missing in your comment.
RIchardP….but resources aren’t the issue here. The Italian government, and also I believe the Catholic Church, agreed to take on the child’s care. No resources hat of the British state required!
Re your statement that “The hospital made a ruling required by the state. The judge ruled that, indeed, the state required the ruling that the hospital made. The cops, employees of the state, are simply doing what they were hired to do – enforcing the will of the state.”
Have you actually read that statute which the judge was relying on? (I have not)…if not, how can you be certain that the judge’s decision was the only possible correct one within the law?
Richard P…also: regarding “cruel and unusual punishment on the child”…if the experts are correct that brain function has been irrevocably lost (and they probably are), then consciousness would be lost along with it, and a non-conscious being cannot suffer.
there is a difference between what is written in a law, and what is right or just.
the nazis had a very similar argument about just following the law.
“…a non-conscious being cannot suffer.”
Sentiments like this are what convinces people that unborn children don’t suffer during an abortion, and by extension that the theft of their life is not “that bad”.
This action by doctors to declare brain death before bodily death is horrid. It is used as an excuse to justify stealing a persons vital organs for transplantation before actual bodily death occurs.
If people are willing to work to preserve this child’s life then there is no reason to allow this child to die of thirst and starvation. None at all.
RL, not sure my point on that is coming through. The Authorities argue that the child must die because brain death, they also argue that the child will suffer if kept alive. One can’t make both of those arguments consistently in the same case.
Jeez, Bloom … you need to get a grip. I’ll respond to your post in 2 parts because it was a 2 part post and you didn’t do very well on either one.
#1 – You need a man, a husband. Wanna know how to reduce stress on your youngest when going to the dentist by 99% ??? Wanna know how … have your man with you … that’s how. He’ll man up, take charge, tell the girl that everything will be alright, your little girl will trust daddy, and guess what … everything does indeed turn out alright … and everyone is happier and stress free. Truth is … you made it far worse for your daughter … not better … because you were so nervous and uptight over it. And … No … its not you, its because you’re female and are not built to deal with situations like that. Most women aren’t. That’s why single mothers are bad for their children … and why children of single mothers many times never grow up or have huge mental or self esteem issues. Kids do better with both parents. Men are good at some things; women at others. Together they make a team and that is what is best for a child.
So anyway, it is not your fault that you didn’t do well at the dentist when your child was going under. That’s NOT YOUR JOB TO BE STRONG THEN … THAT IS HER FATHER”S JOB … and by trying to be a dad … you did a lousy job at it … like all women do. (Sorry, not trying to be mean … just stating the truth).
#2 and again … this is going to sound horrible … but I don’t give a shit about some kid in a coma in the UK because the courts are being mean and unfair. Wanna know what bothers me and should bother you ??? Wanna know ???
Courts here … who are MEAN AND UNFAIR TO MEN. Unfair treatment of men in the divorce courts … by the millions. There are literally millions of men … right now … in the US … facing prison … 24 hrs a day … 7 days a week … month after month … year after year. SLAVES TO THE DIVORCE COURT. Pay child support … or go to prison. Lose your job … go to prison. Get sick or hurt and can’t pay the bills … go to prison.
Here is what men find out when they get to divorce court. THERE IS NO LAW … EXCEPT THEY HAVE A GUN AND YOU DON”T. No law. No justice. No rights … for men. They don’t have to produce any evidence, you don’t have to have done anything wrong, there isn’t any crime … AND YOU ARE GUILTY ANYWAY. Because one party has a vagina and the other one has a gun to his head and is forced to pay.
So … frankly, I don’t give a shit about some kid who’s a vegetable … and will never recover. The real question … is why you do care him and then don’t care about millions of men being forced to be slaves to pay for children that have been stolen from them … and are being slowly brainwashed to HATE THEM by their mothers. Yep … pay for kids you can’t see, can’t be a parent too … and who fucking hate you … YOU PAY OR GO TO JAIL.
One kid whose mind is gone and has no hope of recovery VERSUS 10 million men … treated far worse … and you care about the kid ??
Sorry … maybe the dentist visit upset you worse than you know … cause this post just don’t make any sense to me. And sorry for being mean and pointing that out to you … but it is what it is. Reality check time.
And this is why … sweetie … its why you need a man around. To point out shit just like this. Reality check. Suck it up, and get your head on straight … it will get better … trust me. And, yeah, I’d do pretty well at the Dentist office too.
@ David
Thanks for the clarification. I understand what you mean and your point.
They do paint themselves into a corner with their thinking in that regards.
Are women (and men) who dress to be attractive at work hypocrytical with metoo etc?
Discuss.
The purpose of marriage
“We wont leave. Lets you put a box around the arguments you are going to have.
Whats the alternative? Being free? Yeah there is security in that.”
Discuss
P.s. not a peterson fan, he has oneitis for his wife but some of his stuff makes you think
From the comments
“Why dont you solve most of the problems Before Marriage.” (Or LTR)
Oh the naivete.
Its only a few years into it that you get comfortable enough to let your true self out and let the real adjustment begin.
P.s. I do not advocate marriage in this day and age. At all.
But.
If you do take it seriously.
Petersons idea of We are not going anywhere forces you to at least attempt to work shit out. Mrs steadfast refusal to accept divorce and just leave is what gave us time to both change and pull it out of the fire.
Why we lost so many friends. They didnt like seeing someone actually doing the intense work and earning the rewards.
@ Mega
Concerning point 1. I remember when my wife was in the hospital with a very bad miscarriage and had to have two liters of saline run through her just to get her blood pressure recorded and two more pints of blood during an emergency D&C. My children told me afterward that I didn’t seem too concerned about their mothers condition so they didn’t worry so much. So even though father’s may not know it their calmness during a tragic event, or at least attempt at it, can be very calming for children.
As for Point 2. I don’t think RPG’s concern for this child is an “either/or” proposition it’s more of a “both/and”.
It’s possible to be concerned for men and the children of men. Also consider this, this is a male child, concern for him is concern for men. I am certain that were this a young girl the doctors would be less callous in their regard for her well being. They might even let the parents take the child to Italy.
@mgtowhorseman
Concerning what Peterson said above. He is spot on women should not wear make-up in the workplace. I am certain this would quell much of the sexual desires from men during the work day.
There was a woman I used to work for who slathered on make-up and wore short little cow girl dresses with a collar line so low that every time she bent over to clean something the collar would droop revealing her bra-less chest. She did that on purpose. She knew what she was doing and what she was trying to excite in those of us on the work floor. Yet we couldn’t go to HR and accuse her of sexual harassment lest we be called harassers for looking. Especially from the white knights who are jealous because she didn’t bend over in front of them.
So yeah the hypocrisy is great with them, but then again without a strong man in their lives to lay down the law almost all women will do this. I say “almost all” because I hold out hope that some women may think about what they are doing, or about to do and put a stop to it. I’ve never met one but they might exist.
In my experience, unless a man has taught his daughter properly, everything a woman wears is about exciting sexual interest.
“There was a woman I used to work for who slathered on make-up and wore short little cow girl dresses with a collar line so low that every time she bent over to clean something the collar would droop revealing her bra-less chest. She did that on purpose.”
Wow!!!!!!!! LOL… that is insane!!!!! The sad thing is that no woman would ever be able to attract a man who would actually be of value to her longterm when she dresses like that.
.
She’ll scare the good men away and only attract the cads.
And then wonder where all the good men have gone lol…
Um… honey? You dress like a slut, and they want wife material!!
“Where are all the good men?!?! These guys only want to USE me!!!”
https://i0.wp.com/www.society19.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/sexy-halloween-costume.gif?resize=500%2C276&ssl=1
LOL… there’s so many more gifs I could post about that topic… but they’re just increasingly inappropriate!!!!! 😀
Yikes!!!! But on a serious note… shopping for young girls’ clothing looks REALLY difficult.
Here are shorts for 4 year olds (boys are the long ones, and look at how short they are for the 4 year old girl)!
The in-seam is about 1 inch which is insanely short and close to the crotch :O
In-seam maybe 1 1/2 to 2 inches… but still that is so short for a toddler/pre-schooler!
Stephanie – you’re missing the point! you’re supposed to dress her SEXY!!!
(yes, i’m being sarcastic … but unfortunately, that’s how mothers think when dressing their girls these days 😦 )
ewww, i can’t do the nitrous, either. they tried that on my girls when they were little, but they both hated it, too.
in our area they won’t pull any teeth for any reason at any age without putting you under.
idk why they won’t just numb and pull … it seems like it’d be so much easier.
@Stephanie
Funny thing about that, she was in the middle of being rescued by a white knight who helped her and “her” child move from the marital home.
Yes, he married her. I doubt they are still together, though I don’t know. She was a class act for sure, uggh.
flouride is poison.
baking soda … salt … coconut oil … a combination of the above. or, if like my kids you can’t stand the taste of those (and/or have terrible oral sensory issues due to no fault of your own), there are some other good products out there to choose from that are poison free.
Mega – i do agree the Dad is better with the kids in medical situations like this. my girls’ dad was like a super hero with this stuff and when they were sick. i’d totally fall apart.
the down side … he got intensely angry at me for not being like him. incensed. and made it very well known to me just exactly how he felt about that. and when he left us, he quit helping when they were ill or needed medical attention unless it happened to fall on his regularly scheduled time with then AND he chose to spend that time with them. sigh.
so … good for you for recognizing that there are things men are good at simply b/c they’re men, and that it’s OKAY for women to also not be good at the same things.
(to be fair … there are *some* women who are better at these things than men. and there were *some* of the medical things i was better at than he.)
oh, and yes … my husband, their step dad, does take care of these kinds of body things for me. my girls, even at 18 and 20, know that if they are sick and need help, they’re much better off going to him than me cause i totally freak out.
LOL!!
Seriously though Ame & Bloom… how did y’all survive with these clothes?!?!
Roman Lance … the workplace? what about church? trying to count the number of times a woman turned around and bent over in front of my husband when we went to church (my first husband NEVER missed a church service).
remember the time we were walking behind a woman in church who was strutting, and my husband leaned over and told me she was wearing a thong. wasn’t even on my radar, but it was on his.
teach your daughter to appreciate being tastefully dressed. she doesn’t need to hide her body – it is what it is, but she doesn’t need to flaunt it, either. there is appropriate and inappropriate. teach her both and encourage the former.
i remember going to our neighborhood pool when my girls were little and watching the middle and high school (church) girls wearing tiny bikinis and playing in the pool totally unaware of the men wearing sunglasses watching them. i’m not going to get into an argument or discussion concerning young girls wearing bikinis … just wasn’t going to put my daughters in a situation where i knew they would be ogled by older men. (how do i know? my (first) husband was one who did and told me about it.)
“she doesn’t need to hide her body – it is what it is”
So true… but so hard!
My mom actually just warned me about that this morning regarding something that happened last weekend when I was out with my older son at our Fiesta art festival to show him the different artists out there making real money.
We stopped to eat afterward and there were some men there who were eyeing us (really I think me) and it just felt dangerous. Obviously my husband was working.
She said I did the right thing, being ready for anything to happen and leaving, but she did warn me to not “get fat” because it’s one of the defense mechanisms (obviously you won’t get looked at anymore) apparently when you’re an attractive woman.
And not trying to be offensive to the men on here… these men looked like drug addicts just hanging around… like thugs.
And I picked a place on the “good side of town” lol….. My husband always says though that “there is no good side of town!”
Stephanie – it’s never the good guys you have to worry about 🙂
the weight thing is interesting. i took some medication years ago that caused me to gain a lot of weight, and i STILL got hit on. it wasn’t as often, but i also wasn’t in a position to be interacting with the public as much. even now … i’m in my 50’s, waaay over the hill, not thin, and there are times i’ve had to run things by my husband to see if i should be concerned or not. and i’m not talking about creeper men … but normal, nice-loooking, handsome men! (i have to say … it’s nice to be able to have my husband balance me out with this stuff. there are times i’ve freaked out, and he’s told me there was absolutely nothing to worry about. my history probably makes my perception a bit distorted.)
there are clothes i’ll only wear in public when i’m with my husband. i dress much more conservative when i know he’s not going to be with me.
also … i’m sure you know b/c of your husband’s work … but be diligent with your kids in places where kids gather and we think are safe, like church. perps know where the kids are.
Ame …
“Mega – i do agree the Dad is better with the kids in medical situations like this. my girls’ dad was like a super hero with this stuff and when they were sick. i’d totally fall apart.
the down side … he got intensely angry at me for not being like him. incensed. and made it very well known to me just exactly how he felt about that. and when he left us, he quit helping when they were ill or needed medical attention unless it happened to fall on his regularly scheduled time with then AND he chose to spend that time with them. sigh.
so … good for you for recognizing that there are things men are good at simply b/c they’re men, and that it’s OKAY for women to also not be good at the same things.”
Thanks. I hope you realize that your Ex getting angry at you was actually ok on his part. He was trying to give you a “learning moment” but it didn’t take. Kinda like me and Bloom right now. Yes, I know … I’m kinda being an ass right now to her. And she ain’t liking it either, obviously … and that’s ok. As for your situation … your ex quit helping … because he’d been replaced. Whoever replaced him … that was now his job. If something happened on his watch … then he did his job. Again … what he’s doing is normal. Its guy stuff … so maybe you don’t understand it, but it sounds like he did ok to me. Actually, sounds like your Ex wasn’t such a bad guy after all.
Peace. All.
Mega – there were a lot of things that were really great about him. i don’t really discuss him out here b/c it’s not possible to give the whole picture. there were four years when i was a single mom after he left and he divorced me (his choice; i did not want the divorce. he was serially unfaithful and an addict among other things). during those four years he decided when he would see our kids – which was significantly less than the decree allowed – and even then i never hindered him from seeing them – he was free to see them and have them as often as he wanted. they actually wanted more time with him, but he refused. much of what he did was to spite me. and when he was angry, he was not simply angry, he would make me ‘pay’ for whatever he was not happy with, and what he was not happy with changed according to whatever he deemed it to be at the moment – not consistent. was i perfect? absolutely not. but i was willing to learn and adapt, yet even when i did that, he still got angry with me. it was very much damned if i do, damned if i don’t.
much of what the men out here experience/have experienced, i also did. it’s not the same … not trying to make it so. just saying … there are some men out there who are not good men, who do truly evil things, who bring harm to their wives and children.
when i did remarry and my ‘new’ husband (we’ve been married almost nine years now) learned of the things i went through, it was then i began to see that so much of what he did was … well, just bad. we no longer had to live in fear, but it took many years for my new husband to teach us that.
still, he was their dad. tragically, he passed away a little over four years ago, and now my girls have to live the rest of their lives with out their dad. he did lots of terrible, terrible things to them the last couple years of his life – in the name of God , and they’ve had to work through those things and grieving his death at the same time. i’m proud of them. they have done so and have forgiven him without loosing their faith in God. we can now talk about him with peace, remember the good times and good memories, the good things about him, without intense pain. and that’s a very, very good thing. it’s not a one-time fix. they will continue to grieve the rest of their lives … when things happen and he’s not there, and just days when suddenly they miss him terribly. but they’re okay.
@ame
“Roman Lance … the workplace? what about church?”
This is absolutely one of my biggest gripes with adult women in church. They dress like they’re trying to pick up men, and with some of the tart attire I’ve seen young women dress in, they are teaching them the same as well.
My boys see this and comment after Mass with stuff like, “Did you see that chick in the fishnet stockings and that short skirt.” or “How bout that one that put the collection plate at the altar, she bent over like she couldn’t wait for us to oogle her butt.”
But given that we can’t get these women to keep their filthy hands of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament or to put on chapel veils, I don’t think this type of dress will be changing soon.
It’s so disheartening because my sons and daughters dress very conservatively when attending Mass. Boys wear ties, coats, shoes, they even walk with walking sticks and wear hats. The girls wear veils and longs skirts with their hair up (mostly). Actually a lot of the credit for inspiring my other daughters to dress well goes to my 17 year old. She is a wonderful example of Catholic modesty.
Just sitting through Mass these days is hard enough without these additional distractions.
Sad.
Roman Lance –
sigh.
and the controversy among Christians about what is appropriate and inappropriate to wear at church is a HOT topic … as in, wanna make some people super angry? talk to church people about what is appropriate and inappropriate to wear at church, and you’ve got an explosion. I’m a Christian, and the Lord told me it’s okay to wear ____! … and then you’re hear, I’m a Christian, and the Lord told me it’s not okay to wear ____!
i stay out of it.
because unless one truly wants to change, they will not.
and there are some things that are truly okay for some and truly not okay for others. and there are some things that people haven’t learned yet.
i think Artisanal Toad addressed issues that the Bible doesn’t lay out in black and white, which this would probably fall under. but i don’t remember where he did.
yet, when a woman bends over in the row right in front of your husband and displays her chest in church. sigh. one wonders.
i have heard men talk about how difficult it is to focus on God in church with the way many women are dressed.
good that you let your boys talk about it without shame. how can they not see a fine butt bent over in front of them!
@ Richard p, I get what you are saying re: finale resources. But in this case, the parents (and the father fought most viligantly and amazingly so for his age of 21, not only the mother, in fact he was at the front line while she focused on the child) were not asking the UK to allocate resources, they were requesting to take their child to where resources were offered. Two fully equipped emergency medical transport aircraft have been ready and waiting to take Alfie off the UK’s hands. Taking the child off life support for days did not increase the odds of success for such a transport, which the doctors then used as an argument to not allow it. That’s what I don’t get – if the UK doctors or system decided they were done investing resources in Alfie, fine, but to then deny his parents, his legal guardians, the right to seek willing and ready resources elsewhere just seems very unjust, to me. Sure maybe he would have died in transit, but he will surely die in that hospital wo care. The child is robust looking, it will take a long time for him to starve or dehydrate to death, which is basically the plan. They said he would not live 10 minutes off the ventilator, at last report he was over 60 hours w/o it. 😦
@ David foster, readings that would normally indicate distress or pain were registering none. Whether that is bc Alfie is not in pain or not able to be conscious of it is not known. There have been cases of people written off as brain dead awakening after even 10 years. And some have said they actually were conscious of what was happening but unable to respond. Perhaps this is not always the case… but
@ Mega, ummmm… ok. Actually I did pretty good w the dentist, all and all. It got done.
As for caring about this child, whose father btw is fighting tooth and nail for, even going to the Pope himself in person to plead the case, my caring for the child and his family does not equal me NOT caring about the injustice other men suffer. I get what you are saying but that’s also quite a leap. Can’t I care about more than one thing, about lots of things, wo any being “less” important? Btw I do care very much about men’s rights and fathers rights and advocate for both in my blog and also in real life. All the time.
It all matters. It’s all connected. IMHO.
@ horseman agreed, there’s little support for working stuff out, lots of support for leaving. You guys made the right call. 🙂 and I am happy to know sometimes people do! May you guys show all the naysayers a deeper truth.
@ Stephanie I agree re girls clothing but I have managed to find more “age appropriate” attire, thank Goodness! No hot pants for my little ladies!!! 🙂
@ane my oldest is an individualist, and started making her own toothpaste of exactly that and guess what? No fluoride and yet no cavities in four years straight!
@ame in my youngest’s case, her dad cannot deal w medical stuff at all. He has not been to a dentist in 20+ years Bc he’s so phobic. He would probably NEVER take her to the dentist. But I also acknowledge this may not be the norm, it’s just in this case I really do have to be the one who makes sure these things happen.
Actually not a single cavity since one filling in a baby tooth at age 2! The dentist did say to me once it’s mostky a body chemistry thing, some people never brush and get no cavities, done brush and floss daily but have many. So it may be both nature and nurture? But her homemade toothpaste seems to be working just fine!
Postscript: Alfie Evans has passed away. Whether treatment elsewhere would have helped prolong his life or reverse his mysterious and undiagnosed illness will never be known. May his life and the issues his situation raised not be forgotten.
The law used to determine all this, btw, was one enacted so the state could intervene in cases of child abuse. Were these parents “abusive” to seek a second opinion and willing care elsewhere? I think it’s a stretch. The law explained: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/27/17286168/alfie-evans-toddler-uk-explained
Also, does this mean the Pope and other leaders supporting the parent’s right to make the final choice to seek willing care elsewhere were advocating for or supporting child abuse?
another stretch, imho.
Would Alfie have eventually died? Yes. So will all of us, btw. Do you want your doctor or the courts deciding when that time is?
My oldest fsther had a bad head trauma almost two years ago. At the time doctors predicted he would be a vegetable. One tried to put him into hospice. All of us pushed back, and prayed. The next day he was sitting up, starting to talk. Weeks later he left the hospital. Today he is back to work and doing all he did before, the only affect loss of vision in one eye. What if the doctors had decided he was “not worth care?”
Science may wish these things were predictable but some survive impossible odds, others do not. How do you know who will and who won’t in advance?
To those who responded to my comments:
In Britain, the state was / is assuming two different roles: the allocator of scarce resources, and the guardian of the child’s best interests:
1. There comes a point when further medical procedures will make little to no difference in the outcome and somebody has to say when enough spending on medical care is enough. At least in Great Britain, they believe it is not fair to expect the parents who are losing their child to make this decision. Most parents will want to do everything possible – but, beyond a certain point – that attitude does not make any medical or financial sense. Great Britain believes it is not fair to expect the parents in these tragic situations to understand that – and so they have taken it upon themselves to say “when”, or at least to back the medical professionals when they say when.enough is enough.
2. There comes a point when someone must speak out on behalf of sensible treatment of the child. Great Britain has decided that the state will decide on behalf of the best interests of the child, not the best interests of the parents. That is what was going on when the state denied the parents the permission to take their child elsewhere for care. This was not a decision about using scarce resources. It was a decision about what the medical professionals thought was best for the child (which Bloom alluded to above). Their professional opinion was that nothing more could be done for the child, and so it was a pointless bother to the child to transport him somewhere else.
There have been other cases in Great Britain such as this one. One was in the news not that long ago. The news media and other media have a field day with these kinds of cases because most everyone becomes interested in the plight of the parents.
But stand back a bit and contemplate that the parents at this point, no matter the case or the child, are operating out of almost pure emotion. Decisions made under these (pure emotion) circumstances don’t generally yield the best results (see Point 3 in my original post above). It is not a stretch to say that, in these extreme circumstances, cooler heads should be allowed to make the required decisions. And so that does seem to be the case in the way the state handled this case, and others like it in the recent past.
These cases are tragedies. My heart breaks for the loss the parents have suffered. But that in no way discounts the reasoned decisions made by the medical professionals. As I pointed out in my original post, not all of these decisions are going to be perfect. But we cannot possible create a world of perfect choices, no matter how much we want to. The best we can do is get the best possible probabilities. And it is foolish to say “don’t try” (to make the best decision based on likely probabilities) just because some folks might abuse the process.
To think there are only two states – parents having absolute control over what happens to their children, or the state behaving like Nazis, is seriously uniformed thinking. There is at least one intermediate step between those two positions where responsible and careful-thinking adults recognize that parents in the throes of grief sometimes don’t make the best decisions. The state can help parents at that point without automatically sliding into the role of Nazis.
@Bloom asked: “Also, does this mean the Pope and other leaders supporting the parent’s right to make the final choice to seek willing care elsewhere were advocating for or supporting child abuse?”
No. That only means those folks were looking out for the parents’ interests, not the child’s. I doubt seriously that any of those folks advocating for the right of the parents to bring the child to them (particularly the Pope) had had any in-depth conversations with the presiding medical professionals over the actual physical condition of the chlid.
@Bloom asked: “What if the doctors had decided he was “not worth care?” “.
Your example does not compare to this case. The doctors did not decide that Alfie was not worth care. The doctors noted that, in spite of their best efforts, Alfie was not responding (I don’t know whether they determined he was brain-dead).
@Bloom asked: ” Do you want your doctor or the courts deciding when that time [to die] is?”
Again, the question has nothing to do with this case. The relevant question is, when your body is no longer capable of supporting life, how much money do you want your children to spend on medical care trying to prove that it can? The doctors in Great Britain did not decide that it was time for Alfie to die. Rather, they decided that he was beyond saving, and was only “alive” in the most tortured definition of the term “alive”. We now have proof that the doctors were correct. Alfies body could no longer support life. I’m certain that, if the doctors saw reason to think that further efforts could have revived Alfie, they would have engaged in those efforts.
This is not a case where someone had superficial wounds and the callous doctors refused to treat them. This is a case where the doctors did all they could and then decided, in their professional opinion (an opinion that states all over the world grant doctors’ license to make), that further effort would not yield different results.
Of course they could have been wrong. But how much money is an appropriate amount to let uninformed people spend trying to prove that the doctors were wrong. The lady in Point 3 of my first post is still spending money (so far as I know) 3 years after her daughter was declared brain dead. And she is still brain dead.
It is not irresponsible, or cruel, or slip-sliding into Naziism to have an adult, serious, logical conversation about how much effort is enough, how much spending is enough, when a body can no longer support life. We are tempted to say “but, we don’t know when that is, when the body will no longer support life”. The only appropriate answer to that is “yes we do know”. Turn off all life support and watch what happens. If the body is capable of supporting life, it will. If it won’t, who are we to play God and extend that “life” artificially?
That is the conversation. Different people will come up with different answers. But when your answer requires the use of other peoples’ money, or treats the object of your concern unfairly or in an uninformed manner (thinking they will survive transport to a different location), then it is proper to ask whether the state has a role to play in whether you can impose your will on others.
How, then, shall we live together?
@ame in my youngest’s case, her dad cannot deal w medical stuff at all. He has not been to a dentist in 20+ years Bc he’s so phobic. He would probably NEVER take her to the dentist. But I also acknowledge this may not be the norm, it’s just in this case I really do have to be the one who makes sure these things happen.
and that’s what we do, isn’t it. it’s not always about who is best in which situation or if there’s a hope that someone else would handle it better than we can … it’s doing the best we can with what we’ve got when we have it to do. and you did.
my aspie-girl absorbs EVERY emotion of the people she’s around … and she absorbs every emotion I have. it truly gets old sometimes. the last dental work she had done we thought my husband was going to be able to be there, but he got called into work last minute (I think someone else got sick or something), so I took Oldest with me … b/c I freak out (she was put under) and Oldest doesn’t. we got through it. she did great. I survived! lol!
kudos to you, Mom! you did it!
From the article at Bloom’s link:
“Camosy condemns “the ableism of the developed secular West” and says the judges in the Evans case appear to be arguing “that certain profoundly disabled children are unworthy of life.” ”
“almost the entirety of Alfie’s brain [has] been eroded leaving only water and cerebral spinal fluid … the connective pathways within the white matter of the brain which facilitate rudimentary sensation — hearing, touch, taste and sight — had been obliterated.”
So the doctors arbitrarily decided that Alfie, being profoundly disabled, is unworthy of life? If the doctors had heeded Camosy’s desires and as one had decreed that Alfie was indeed worthy of life, would that have reconstructed Alfie’s brain?
The pure stupidity of some people is astoundingly mind-boggling.
Of course, Camosy is not stupid. He is a cunning opportunist. It is the folks who listen to him and make up their minds based on what he says that are astoundingly mind-boggling. They are truely examples of the term “sheeple”. “What the h*ll do doctors know. I’ll believe my favorite politician every time over what some doctor says.”
I have this thing about people who worship uninformed ignorance.
“Where are all the good men?!?! These guys only want to USE me!!!”
If I was a teacher…I’d teach a class called ’cause and effect’. I’d be fired in a week because wimminz would find it offensive to their emotions.
@richardp, I hope I did not offend you. I guess I am having trouble seeing the medical professionals point of view. Perhaps I don’t have enough information or facts about that side of it, from the news or personally. I am sure they did not reach this decision lightly either. And perhaps it is Alfie’s young age that colors my judgement. For example if a doctor said, “my patient is 80 and has terminal cancer. Their family wants me to treat it aggressively, but I know it is unlikely to help, and will likely only cause suffering.” Does the doctor exhausted every possible option, despite that, bc the family wishes? Easier to accept the answer is “no” at 80, than age 2. But maybe they aren’t so different? I dunno… it’s a tough situation for sure. One I hope I never know.
‘Yikes!!!! But on a serious note… shopping for young girls’ clothing looks REALLY difficult.’
Feminism is like cigarettes. They got to get the younger crowds earlier to keep the train rolling.
In a similar but different situation, I know a woman who was told early in pregnancy her child had a condition where baby would not live minutes past delivery. She decided to carry the baby to term anyway, feeling they could at least enjoy 9 months of life together. She faced a lot of flack from people in her life for this decision (not made by her on religious grounds, just personally.) Many felt she should have agreed to terminating the pregnancy early on, as doctors recommended. I actually admired her stand, as difficult as it must have been. I don’t think everyone in her situation would choose the same, or could handle it emotionally. Her child was born and died minutes later, as predicted. She still does not regret it. I am sure she hoped for a miracle or that the doctors were wrong. And I know this is not the same as the situation w Alfie.
I guess I really don’t know enough about life support to know if it could keep almost anyone “alive” despite them technically being dead? If that’s the case than yes, I can see how that is not an option that could or should be exercised in every situation.
I guess my issue is the state deciding vs. the parents but again I can see your point where the parents may not be able to make that decision logically vs emotionally.
It’s heartbreaking, for all involved I am sure.
I wonder if there has been such a case in the U.S.? Or if Alfie had not been in the UK things would have been handled differently? I truly don’t know the answer to this but maybe someone does?
Info on life support, apparently there are many types and levels. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support
Some recovery stories:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9223408/Miracle-recovery-of-teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html
https://www.today.com/today/amp/flna2D80555950
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/27274399
http://mb.ntd.tv/2017/01/23/coma-planning-pull-plug-can-hear-miracle-can-save/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3814394/Student-22-left-coma-horror-car-crash-saved-wiggled-toe-moments-doctors-turn-life-support-machine.html
https://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/04/17/the-nearly-unbelievable-story-of-how-a-desperate-father-and-9mm-handgun-resulted-in-a-miracle
Many more:
http://kgov.com/brain-dead-patients-who-have-recovered
“The law used to determine all this, btw, was one enacted so the state could intervene in cases of child abuse. Were these parents “abusive” to seek a second opinion and willing care elsewhere? I think it’s a stretch.”
Yes. I definitely agree with you Bloom.
“It is not irresponsible, or cruel, or slip-sliding into Naziism to have an adult, serious, logical conversation about how much effort is enough, how much spending is enough, when a body can no longer support life”
true… my husband and /i update our wills each year and “end of life issues” like that are some of what we talk about and have made clear plans for.
BUT with your kids… I’m sure it’s a million times harder.
And there’s also the possibility of miracles! If you solely base your decisions on medical and professional opinions (and they are just opinions sometimes), then where is your faith?
Every child deserves the chance at life no matter what the circumstances are or how long they live. It’s up to God to decide when it’s over here. What’s happened is the widespread culture of death is trying to dictate who deserves to live and die based off what they feel is proper.
Besides what happens when one of these judges just happens to not be useful anymore to the borg and someone else decides they aren’t worthy of life anymore.
Mussolini was fond of the phrase “”Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state”
Britain seems to have gone very far in this direction.
I wonder if we worry more per kid then our grandparents because we have less fuck trophies to spread the worry allotment across
It is not irresponsible, or cruel, or slip-sliding into Naziism to have an adult, serious, logical conversation about how much effort is enough, how much spending is enough, when a body can no longer support life
………..
It is not but I’d rather stop spending resources on the hordes of non Whites and realot those resources to our own sick, poor, elderly etc etc
@ame
“… how can they not see a fine butt bent over in front of them!”
Lol…this girls butt is definitely not fine. It’s more like watching an outdoor movie theater screen fall while snuggling with your girl in the car. It’s not something one likes to see, but it’s forever unforgettable.
https://relevantradio.com/2018/04/could-an-alfie-evans-case-happen-in-the-united-states/
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/04/alfie-evans-case-americas-future/
Alfie’s dad fought for his life to the very end.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/alfie-evans-last-moments-desperate-12446848
What if Alfie Evans had been named Ahmed Edris, and the flight were to Mecca, not Rome?
http://archbishopcranmer.com/alfie-evans-flight-mecca-rome/
This family had to “kidnap” their own child from a U.K. Hospital to take him elsewhere for treatment. Three years later he is cancer free! https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/03/ashya-king-cleared-cancer-three-years-parents-abducted-hospital/
this kind of stuff is sooo scary. i have to be honest … there was a huge relief when my aspie girl turned 18. even in the usa the state has overstepped parents.
Indeed Ame, it’s scary what I have heard some parents have gone thru when just by random chance the state somehow inserts themselves into their family w/o true need or cause. Getting out of the system once it is triggered can be no easy feat.
I know a family who took in the most difficult of difficult foster kids, good people, loved and provided for those kids, adopted them and made them their lifetime family. One daughter, who had been so mistreated she was actually diagnosed psychotic by the age of two when she came to live with them, made accusations at age 14 that they had hit her. All the kids, including their four bio children, were immediately taken from the home and split up into different foster homes for over 6 months until it got sorted out. So traumatic. The girl had no idea what trouble her being mad and making things up would cause. What a nightmare!
Bloom – that is SO.FREAKIN.SCARY! and SO.WRONG!!!
a few years ago my sisters subtly tried to take my aspie girl away from me. neither knows her well. i let her go with one sister to a church camp for a week, and at the end of it they had come up with this ‘plan’ to have my daughter move to another state with this sister and her family … because they didn’t like the way i was homeschooling her.
thing is with her … what she says and what she means are often two different things, and if you bait her just right, you can get her to say a whole lot of stuff that isn’t true. i’ve had to be hyper-diligent in the medical care and otherwise i’ve chosen for her over the years – bathed in tons of prayer and lots and lots of research.
it’s no surprise that there was money involved … which my lazy dishpan BIL would have benefited from had they succeeded.
God was just watching over us. she would have totally failed in that environment; it would have been tragic.
@Ame, wow I am soooooo glad for all of you that never came to anything. People may even be well intended, and still cause grave grave harm. And sometimes it is not so well intended but for financial or other gain. Scary!