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abundance, break up, break ups, breakup, breakups, commitment, dating, divorce, dysfunction, happiness, happiness comes from within, marriage, mindset, unhappiness
In comments on another blog, frequent commentor and fellow blogger Stephanie shared the story of a friend’s struggling marriage:
“I had a friend for over 2 decades… literally, we were friends in pre-school and have pictures together from our Kinder graduation **tear**. But she married someone she was NOT attracted to – who she dated for FIVE YEARS in our 20’s and kept complaining to me about how unattractive he was and how she wanted him to improve himself.
No matter how many times I told her to leave him alone and move on – find someone she was attracted to who she could accept as the man he is, she didn’t listen. She married him right at 29 yrs old (really hit home that manosphere cliche for me personally to see that), and has a very rocky marriage now.
Maybe… is it possible that [she] married her husband even though he wasn’t good at being a man? To me, these women (and virgins can do it, too) they pick these kinds of men on purpose. It’s not an accident that they stay with them through sometimes YEARS of dating and then it’s not an accident that they walk down that aisle to marry someone THEY KNOW they are not attracted to that much.
It’s very much on purpose. And while I’m sure they believe the lies they tell themselves… it’s bound to end up in heartache.
**Bonus brain memory stuff** She even told me (much to my horror) that while they were just dating she was very tempted to cheat on him with various coworkers!!!!!!! So how is that going to play out in a marriage of decades? Seems much more likely she will eventually stray.”
I inquired:
“@ Stephanie did she ever say what was working for her in the relationship? How attractive is she? Did she date others or ?”
She replied:
“Mostly just security, and getting married before it was too late to have kids. Her plans were always to find someone in college and marry them.
She did date other guys, even in high school… a couple she really was attracted to, but chose not to be “serious” with them even though I would urge her that they were a great catch for marriage.
I don’t get it 😦 Except that he makes good money and is stable. But she is very very good at her job and makes a lot of money, too, so I guess she just wanted stability relationship-wise.”
I too have seen women marry to a man they are not so attracted to physically (but are attracted to for other reasons like stability, status, resources, etc.) who end up unhappily married. And likewise I have seen women marry men they are wildly physically attracted to (but who lacked the stability/comfort component) who end up unhappily married. So is the physical attraction, or making the “wrong” pick in a mate, really the factor?
I know some may disagree, but I would argue it is not the level of attraction or choosing the wrong mate that is the problem, it is the woman’s attitude. Rather than focusing on what her mate doesn’t have, she would be far better off focusing on the qualities and traits that she does appreciate. It’s similar to the glass half full or half empty argument.
Women who look for what’s “missing” will always be less happy (content) than women who look for “what’s there.” Because it is far too easy to idealize some imaginary path not taken, and far too easy to also criticize the path chosen.
But guess what? All we have is the path we are on. And if she choose to marry this man, choosing to honor that commitment despite his not being perfect in every possible way is actually the secret to a successful marriage. Being happy (content) isn’t something that, “just happens,” it means she literally chooses to be happy (content) with her choice, see the positives within it, and to honor the commitment she made.
It’s foolishly disastrous to continue after marriage to ponder “what if’s” and “if only’s” and such alternate realities as if they were some magically perfect path versus the path one is on. Because you know what? Those options would be just as imperfect in different ways. Because no marriage is without a balance of give and take.
To see how damaging such thinking is, let’s put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine if her husband was constantly questioning his choice in a wife? Wondering if he could have “done better?” Entertaining attractions to others at work and social circles. Confessing to others on a regular basis how his wife is “lacking” in this way or that. Not cool, right? And not very loving, either.
So in reality I would say this woman and others like her are not unhappy (discontent) because they have chosen poorly or wrong so much as they are choosing to be unhappy (discontent) with the choice they freely made. As in past tense. The time to question the choice was before the wedding, not forever after.
Of course doing so takes maturity, self-discipline, wisdom, and a long-view — qualities not as popular in today’s “instant gratification, I want it all and I want it now,” society. It would also require self-awareness of the role she is choosing to play in her own and her husband’s unhappiness (discontent), plus a sincere desire to change that. It’s possible, but only she can take these steps.
This woman may think the solution to her unhappiness (discontent) is changing her partner (either changing her partner’s appearance or literally changing partners) — but in reality the solution is changing her own dysfunctional, non-constructive, and marriage-killing mindset. Stop reconsidering the choice and get on with making what you chose work, would be my red pill advice.
What do you think? Please share in the comments.
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
Bloom – I haven’t read everything you’ve ever written. But, of what I have read, this is probably the best.
A quote I saw somewhere along the way, but don’t remember who said it: Marriage is less about finding the right person than being the right person. Sort of encapsulates what you have said.
Unless the marraige is arranged, the reality is that we end up with who will have us. And that is a large part of the problem. Like Groucho Marx supposedly said: I wouldn’t want to be a member of any club that would have me. That resonates because I think that attitude is a fundamental part of the human condition – at least for folks who were not cherished as infants and youngsters (and for girls, having a father present to teach them to be valuable, so they value themselves).
Pity those who ignore those who would have them because they are certain that something better will come along. Usually something better does come along. But there is no guarantee that the better one will be interested in the one waiting.
Which is why I point to the unwritten drama behind Adam and Eve building a life together outside of the Garden. By all accounts, they paid attention to what Bloom said in this post and got on with building a useful life together – in spite of the failures and imperfections of both.
It’s called solipsism and women are incapable of doing what you describe. Sure it can suppressed but as you point out it’s there. It’s the natural default state. Briffaults Law clearly points it out.
Hypergamy is utter selfishness. The only answer from a man is tough love.
A woman may be able to suppress the traits. But they will always be there. She will forever see the world through her emotions. What she feels is reality
I want
I feel
I deserve
Selfishness.
The act of marrying someone just because is one of the supreme acts. She can’t and won’t see her failure here.
@ RichardP thank you! 😀
@JustaGuy, true women are geared toward that plus hypergamy and the AF/bb drive as well. Even so, a gal does have the CHOICE to recognize how she responds to all that is under her control. Unfortunately women are more often told to go with their “feelz” than to do the opposite.
‘I know some may disagree, but I would argue it is not the level of attraction or choosing the wrong mate that is the problem, it is the woman’s attitude.’
I’d say in most cases I’d agree.
Really the attitude of both husband and wife are big factors.
And the reason I include the attitude of the husband…I’ve been around some Donnie Downer guys and they can drain and irritate me just as much as any Debbie Downer.
Very true Earl! I guess since this blog is directed at the ladies, I forget to mention that part but I am by no means saying ONLY gals can have the wrong attitude, for sure!
Also something I didn’t put in the post, but think is very important, is the gal wanted to get married, “before it was too late to have kids.” Even more reason to have the right mental approach to all this — she’s WANTING kids!!! Hello?!?!? (Not sure from Stephanie’s comments if they have them yet or not but I hope she gets her head right before bringing MORE people into this dysfunctional situation!)
‘Even more reason to have the right mental approach to all this — she’s WANTING kids!!!’
I like your half-full optimistic outlook there…but I’ve used the wanting marriage/kids test and have found a lot of women wanting. It’s truly eye opening when the man initiates this idea versus the woman.
Besides if she wants kids she has to understand that she needs a father for those kids too. He needs to display some father figure attributes. You can’t just use any man as a personal sperm donor/ATM for the personal desire to be a mother because she’s panicking over her last three eggs.
If I remember Stephanie’s story correctly she didn’t even really dig the guy while dating and stayed with him FOR 5 YEARS before finally settling because the eggs were fading fast. It shouldn’t take a person that long to figure out whether they are marriage material or not.
She probably had no plan of action and was just going with the flow hoping some other guy she did dig would snatch her out of that situation. I’d have more respect if she realized after a sufficent amount of time and knowledge it wasn’t there, cut the cord, and moved on. At least that’s what I would tell a potential daughter of mine.
“It shouldn’t take a person that long to figure out whether they are marriage material or not”
It took her that long to even be able to say “I love you” to him and back to him when he said it.
But he still married her. So… I don’t know. They don’t have kids yet, but I’m 100% certain they will since they both desire children.
As I said before. Imagine the day before the wedding he said
“Well you are ugly as a brick and lousy in the sack and your cooking would choke a yak!
But you have good breeder hips so I will marry you to crank out my heirs.”
And it is said in a country without alimony\child support laws.
And y’all think he doesn’t know!!
Listen to Paul’s brilliance.
P.s. by hoe he means woman who trades sex/love for resources.
Tldr. Just listen to the last minute where he asks “you callin my wife a hoe?”
Well stop whatever little favours you do just before sex for a month and see what she do. If she “you used to (sayin what you did for sex)” then yeah you might be married to a hoe.
P.s.
Fuck happiness!! No one is happy for more than a day! Ever!
Think content, at peace, good enough.
I will be happy when he makes vp.
I will be happy when she likes oral.
I will be happy with more money.
No.
She is an okay broad who makes me pie.
He cleans the gutters for me on the scary ladder.
The rent is paid and we have groceries.
See!!!
I am finished work, waiting for the burgers to grill, drinkin a beer while she checks the pie! Aaaaaaaaaahhhh! Nice.
True horseman, content is a better word than happy. I think lots of people’s unhappiness stems from expectations that marriage is going to suddenly transform their life, fix their woes, or make them complete. Actually life is pretty much the same.
Because it is far too easy to idealize some imaginary path not taken, and far too easy to also criticize the path choosen.
truth … in all of life, is it not.
Richard – excellent.
a woman must be very careful mentioning such things publicly, even if she has grounds to stand on.
I think lots of people’s unhappiness stems from expectations that marriage is going to suddenly transform their life, fix their woes, or make them complete. Actually life is pretty much the same.
truth.
“I know some may disagree, but I would argue it is not the level of attraction or choosing the wrong mate that is the problem, it is the woman’s attitude. Rather than focusing on what her mate doesn’t have, she would be far better off focusing on the qualities and traits that she does appreciate. It’s similar to the glass half full or half empty argument.”
^^
Looking back, I guess this is true. My husband knew her really well, so he knew all this stuff, too.
Ok… just asked my man’s thoughts… he says:
“She obviously chose to “settle,” after trying to find Mr. Perfect (insert my thoughts: oh yea! I totally forgot she really was extremely picky). She was 29 when she married, had seen a lot of her friends getting married. She knew she had to get to that point or it may never happen for her.
The guys she was attracted to at work (who she felt temptations to cheat with) were probably not that attracted to her. She knew she had power over her boyfriend (future husband) because of HIS attraction to her, and that he didn’t have other options or try to move on to find other options. So she exploited it.
I honestly feel that if he had been able to move with his job, she probably would have tried to force him to move for her (they were a long distance relationship for those 5 years… neither one wanted to move for the other during that time). But because he had such a good paying job, and her’s allowed her to work from home, she ended up moving for him.
With her lack of attraction to him, but then obvious attraction to coworkers… that just spells disaster for either emotional infidelity or full blown sexual affair. She has a “grass is greener on the other side,” issue.
If she is not into you, and you know it!!
Why not mess with her! After all its not like you have anything to lose, like affection or respect! Have fun with it!
Indeed Horseman, this guy maybe should have kept her in the FWB zone… Excdept even then a guy should be absolutely paranoid in such a case that she’s NOT on borth control and he needs to 100% take responsibility for that.
Or better yet, find a gal who is into him…. Not just into into him until she has kids and him on the hook. (Except even so she’s a fool for thinking that is easier than having her kids gather on the daily!)
Stephanie is correct that it has much to do with female attitude. My wife added obey to her vows altering an United Church change from the 20’s. She was simply recognizing that I would always be found responsible as we tried to make our life as a partnership. And as for imagined male abuse, we had less than a handful of serious disagreements, I hung on to several, but she held the rest ;-D
@b g
Bloom is the one who figured out it has more to do with her attitude than anything else. I bet this is right, even though it feels weird to me because in general, this girl had an amazing attitude (and the smarts to back it up to achieve almost anything she wanted out of life).
She is also the one who mentioned to me when we had already been married a couple of years, that she “could never have done what (I) did.” The whole getting married and having no money for several years and learning how to build all that together – she admitted she couldn’t havev done that.
So she was (in my opinion) pretty self-aware – which most Asian women seem to be – at least in general. But I guess attitude about life versus attitude about men can maybe be different things?
I DO hope that she makes it work. My mom still keeps in contact with her sometimes and has told me the worrying things she sees. My brother for some reason has her on his social media account… and a few months ago told me incredulously that she was bragging on social media about a “horrible” birthday gift she got for him – that he’d hate it but she couldn’t wait to film his reaction or something.
Even my brother was like “???!!!!????”
I don’t know. I do hope it works out.
“Indeed Horseman, this guy maybe should have kept her in the FWB zone… Excdept even then a guy should be absolutely paranoid in such a case that she’s NOT on borth control and he needs to 100% take responsibility for that.”
In Christian dating culture, this would never have worked. They were apart of a BIG and very close knit Christian group from their college so FwB would not have worked out at least for him – it would have possibly ruined his reputation with the entire group PLUS he was some kind of youth minister at his church.
That’s not to say that some of them in that group were probably sleeping around anyway, the ones who held off marriage for longer probably did. But many of them were trying to save sex for marriage.
We went to different colleges so were in different groups. Her group seemed to generally put marriage off until much longer (the more practical Asians), whereas my college Christian group often saw couples getting married very soon and while they were still in college – mostly to prevent temptation. I DO know a lot of us were virgins, and that’s why we married so fast and so young.
So… from the kind of culture we were both in… FwB just doesn’t work for Christians. Maybe for Gen X’ers when they were in college, but everyone I knew and most of the people she knew were actually serious about saving sex for marriage. I think we were generally more conservative than our parents and the generation (X) right above us.
I forgot about this! But I did know ONE girl who was apart of our Christian college group. She started getting into FwB type of relationships and we were all horrified. I was out of college then and married but still one of the “mentor” ladies who would mentor younger ones. She was my age, but still in college because she failed a lot 😦 It’s really strange… she was from a VERY rich family, I couldn’t believe she was not able to pass normal classes 😦
She was pretty much shunned from the group 😦 , and had to step down from leading the Women’s ministry part (she was one of the leaders on campus as they allowed students to run their own organizations). It was really sad, but she would not listen to advice – she got “hooked” on sex I think, and wouldn’t give it up even though she lost most of her friends and social group.
Anyway… I remember being just extremely shocked and horrified that she was letting herself be used. Maybe a lot of us were just naive and came from sheltered homes – I know I did! But the whole “being used” thing was really really looked down upon.
Fast forward several years (almost 8 years I think) she ended up marrying the main guy who was using her for a long time, and not really attracted to her 😦 I’m almost 100% sure he’s going to be cheating on her or they’re going to divorce.
To be fair I am only guessing re it being her attitude but it is true people can have totally different approaches to their relationship than the rest of life.
For such a go getter to have simply settled on marrying someone she feels “meh” about is odd, for sure. And it sounds like she didn’t really try to do otherwise, also odd considering how driven she is described to be in other areas.
Stephanie, what is the dynamic in her parents marriage, out of curiosity?
I also heard about a girl much younger than we were, who got into a sexual relationship with a guy. The guy was not from our group… I remember talking about it with the other Women’s leadership mentors and we concluded that he was like a wolf who snatched one of our sheep. It was that serious and we were sooooo angry.
I don’t know what happened with that couple, but he was bad, and yes, we acknowledged that she was **choosing** it. But it was NOT accepted and no one in the group seemed to think it was “ok.”
I agree and I don’t.
For most it is about attitude and it helps to look at the good.
But going in she Knew she was not attracted and saw it simply as a business relationship. My “job” is to put up with him to get babies or whatever.
The best she could do is keep her gripes to herself.
It would be difficult for her to see the good because going in she didn’t see any.
It is eventually doomed.
Re the rich gal, that’s interesting. I wonder if the failing classes and sleeping around was about rebelling against her parents or something? The whole “double life” thing of being a mentor and leader kinda makes me wonder… either that or maybe she felt bc of her family’s money maybe she could do whatever she wanted? Like the rules didn’t apply?
Interesting re her marriage, too. I wonder if that is also a “looks good from the street” but is actually not what it appears situation.
People sure are funny!
Bloom
“For such a go getter to have simply settled on marrying someone she feels “meh” about is odd, for sure. And it sounds like she didn’t really try to do otherwise, also odd considering how driven she is described to be in other areas.”
Participation trophy effect. I just have to show up.
This is what was there when I did.
Anything else would be, you know, work. It would be hard.
Her parents are both Asians… their parents emigrated over. They yelled a lot at each other even when I was over (?), and never told her they “loved” her – which is normal for Asian families. Every one of the Asian girls I knew had very odd relationships with their moms and dads.
It was clear her parents DID love her, but they just would never say it.
I can see that horseman. Sad.
I would hope there is something about the marriage that works for both of them? Otherwise it’s kinda like, “well I don’t really like you but what the heck let’s get married.”
Ok this is gonna sound mean but…
If people were willing to do even a bit of work to get a good partner….
Explain the 200+ at 25 crying “accept me as I am.”
Just put down the twinkie.
Dont tell me its too hard. Mrs has dropped 50lb since Jan 1 post menopause.
Explain the skinny jean wimp guys crying “but I have a manly neck beard…no?”
Its called a gym. 30 minutes x 3 a week. Not a lot.
Dont tell me its hard. I chose to do farm work in all weather to stay in shape and I am old.
Behaviour change only happens when the pain of consequences is greater than the pleasure of the action. Why “watch what they do not what they say” works.
Making your actions lie is near impossible.
You are out of shape, you are fat, you dress poorly, you never go out.
Shut up!
You don’t want a partner, you want a gift!
Yes some of this could be cultural. My uncle is Asian (married to my moms sister) and I have noticed while he is a very devoted and kind man he is not overly emotive. There is a practicality to the culture. So it could partly be this?
“There is a practicality to the culture. So it could partly be this?”
I think that is probably it. They DO see marriage as a business relationship – take a lot of the romance out and that makes sense.
I can see how that could make it stronger in a way… but for me, I’d rather have the passion and emotions of not only choosing to be with this person to build a life together, but also because we actually love each other.
Otherwise it’s kinda like, “well I don’t really like you but what the heck let’s get married.”
At least she didn’t say “and you are Ugly too!!”
Her actions scream it but she didn’t say it.
But he knows.
And the pain of knowing is not more than the pleasure of complacancy.
So he keeps waking up to it.
Day after day after day after
“But he knows.
And the pain of knowing is not more than the pleasure of complacancy.
So he keeps waking up to it.
Day after day after day after”
^But do Asian men think like that? Do we really know?
It could be more like this
I am Scots on both sides. A hard people from a hard land. But we love just as hard. Mrs knows it. I greet her every morning for coffee “hello, my love.”
Ah marmalade! As cold and as bitter as the Scots woman who feeds it to you.
Ugh!!! My husband just spanked me and told me I had to go LOL
spending to o much time typing. Bye sweet Bloom’s people! Have a great weekend!
RPG & Stephanie,
Your comments about Asians are highly entertaining, weird but entertaining
I wonder if it is possible to save everything with attitude? I agree it is part of the problem but if you have truly married someone you have zero attraction to I see it quite hard to fix things. The girl was stupid to marry someone she doesn’t really like. And the man will pay the price.
Meanwhile I’m trying to live one day at a time. The pain is still there but maybe a bit easier to handle. What I don’t like is that I seem to have developed an age crisis because of what happened (him cheating and leaving). I’m not old (26 going on 27) but not as young as I was. Hopefully I can still find a good man in the future.
“I wonder if it is possible to save everything with attitude? ” I would say not everything can be saved with attitude. IMO one ingredient that is most neglected in marriage is honor. Promises were made, honor keeps those promises. If a woman has no honor to start with, promises mean nothing (attitude).
“I’m not old (26 going on 27) but not as young as I was. Hopefully I can still find a good man in the future.” Rosalie, what is your definition of a good man?
I wouldn’t want a marriage to be a business relationship either. That’s not how God created marriage.
A Christ-church relationship would be my ideal.
Um, no. The first marriage was entirely a “business relationship”, God’s design it seems was to furnish the man with a helper. Not a word about “true love”, “soul mate”, a preacher, fancy wedding, bridal dress or reception, eh?
Genesis 2:15-21
15Then the LORD God took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to cultivate and keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded him: “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”
18And the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make for him a suitable helper.”
19So the LORD God formed out of the ground every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20And the man gave names to all the livestock, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adamb no suitable helper was found.
21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribsc and closed up the area with flesh. 22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him.
Ok, Earl..so an ideal marriage would be “A Christ-church relationship….”. Agreed. Then how should a wife behave towards her husband? Obey, honor and serve him? Be in total awe of her lord?
If I remember correctly, the Bible speaks of the church having been BOUGHT with a price….you are not your own….
So IMO, even in the New Testament it speaks of being bought
Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.
1 Cor 6 19-20
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.
‘Not a word about “true love”, “soul mate”, a preacher, fancy wedding, bridal dress or reception, eh?’
Yes.
‘Then how should a wife behave towards her husband? Obey, honor and serve him? Be in total awe of her lord?’
Yes.
‘If I remember correctly, the Bible speaks of the church having been BOUGHT with a price….you are not your own….’
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
‘So IMO, even in the New Testament it speaks of being bought’
Does your idea of a business relationship inolved money or financial exchange…or a relationship exchange?
Exactly. Seems that God fully intended marriage to be business deal, a contract, total commitment in the beginning…
Earl, “Does your idea of a business relationship inolved money or financial exchange…or a relationship exchange
I will explain my position, Earl. I BOUGHT my wife for cold, hard cash. I paid the “bride price” for her to seal the deal with her father and family. “Love” had very little to do with it. It was business. She cost me well over $20,000 in gold, so yeah, my wife knows exactly what she was worth.
Fast forward 25 years, still married, in love and neither of us can imagine being without the other. All about honor.
Sounds like a good investment. Although I don’t know how much money Adam gave God for Eve.
But when it comes to the Holy Spirit….which is where your examples of buying come from…
‘Then Peter and John laid their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. When Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money. “Give me this power as well,” he said, “so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.’
Acts 8:17-22
Oh man! Earl, are you comparing me to Simon the Sorcerer?
I am simply stating that in most non-western countries that have not been destroyed by feminism, marriage is indeed a business arrangement first. My view is that God fully intended marriage to be a business arrangement when He first created the concept.
Yes, my wife is a good investment..and I think she likes the return she has gotten from her husband as well.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+24&version=NLT
“But don’t you believe in True Love? Destiny? Soulmates?”
Ahahahahahahaha
“So you don’t love your wife then?”
“I love my wife very much. She met many of my needs when we met and has earned deeper love over the years thru shared trials and her sticking with it.”
“So she IS your soulmate!”
“Nope! She is the broad I married.
If it wasn’t her it would have been someone else. And god forbid something happens there may be some one to come after.”
“Let me ask you a question. If there IS true love, how do you then fall out of True Love?”
“Well he changed….I changed…”
“So your soulmate, the mate of your immortal soul….changed?’
“Well I guess it was destiny you are alone now.”
“You are SUCH an asshole!!
Hey Larry
““I wonder if it is possible to save everything with attitude? ” I would say not everything can be saved with attitude. IMO one ingredient that is most neglected in marriage is honor. Promises were made, honor keeps those promises. BECAUSE a woman has no honor to start with, promises mean nothing period.”
There fixed it for ya.
She’s Asian, born to immigrant parents. Obviously, I have no idea where her family is from or their economic status but there easily could be a ‘traditional culture + scarcity mentality’ that was indoctrinated very young.
My father lived through the depression AND the recession that preceded it. Eventually he was very prosperous, but he never put the hard times behind him and his kids learned at least some of his lessons. China, let’s say her family comes from China, for argument’s sake — Chinese peasants have been chewing on sticks poor for 1,000 years. From roughly 1900 to 1950 they were in a multi-sided civil war that made Iraq look like Club Med. Then the communists “fixed” things for 50 years … they’ve only JUST gotten ever so slightly better at it. A lot of Asia has been pretty rough and tumble and even if a family did well there is the question of what did they witness as they did well and what did they have to do to stay on top.
In many parts of the world in the 1950s an overweight guy was sexy because he was obviously prosperous. Possibly she’s carrying baggage from her past, or her parents past. Many cultures don’t give up the past nearly so quickly as Americans. Until just recently we tended to move on even faster than Europe.
Another thing to consider: Some women are scared of being with a guy that they are utterly committed to. They feel like they are losing “themselves” or some vision of who they are. I imagine that women’s culture over the last 40 years has only made this worse. Many women are willing to go with it, given the powerful feelings a primo guy gives them … but I’d bet everything that’s not true of them all. If there’s some insecurity in her past (the parents attitude?) maybe she simply can’t allow herself to “lose control,” when it comes to loving a guy and will choose someone lesser where she can stay in charge.
If I was writing this story I’d work with those elements … but that doesn’t make them true.
‘Oh man! Earl, are you comparing me to Simon the Sorcerer?’
I’m pointing out that ‘being bought with a price’ doesn’t necessarily mean with money.
‘My view is that God fully intended marriage to be a business arrangement when He first created the concept.’
I think it’s more than simple economics. It’s a relationship exchange…you are giving each other your bodies.
‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.’
“Another thing to consider: Some women are scared of being with a guy that they are utterly committed to. They feel like they are losing “themselves” or some vision of who they are. I imagine that women’s culture over the last 40 years has only made this worse. Many women are willing to go with it, given the powerful feelings a primo guy gives them … but I’d bet everything that’s not true of them all. If there’s some insecurity in her past (the parents attitude?) maybe she simply can’t allow herself to “lose control,” when it comes to loving a guy and will choose someone lesser where she can stay in charge.”
^This is definitely true. Not sure if it was true for her, but in general this makes sense.
Plus it’s scarier to commit to someone you are head over heels for because if something goes wrong, it’s way more painful because of how deep the love is/was.
This is normal for women to feel.
We just got back from a retirement party of one of my husband’s best and favorite superior’s. It’s so hard to see him leave! He did so much good and was such a godly man as well.
So sad!!!!!
“If there’s some insecurity in her past (the parents attitude?) maybe she simply can’t allow herself to “lose control,” when it comes to loving a guy and will choose someone lesser where she can stay in charge.”
That’s an astute observation. As long as she has control and is in charge however…she’ll never learn what it means to submit.
Sometimes the guy submits. Like Abraham, when God told him to do what Sarah said. Or the guy in the following story.
File this under character counts and commitment to principles.
Wife had a 3-hour lunch today with the recently-retired lady director of the children’s choir that daughter sang with. Lady friend told the story of her husband’s sister. Long ago. Met a guy. Fell in love. Got married. On wedding night, in bed doing whatever, went numb from the waist down. Off to hospital. Many tests. Diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.
Talk about a game changer for both. But particularly the guy.
He and she are still together. She having gone very much downhill by this point. Commitment to principles. Principles don’t change, even when people do.
Rosalie, no need to panic or get depressed over your age. I know quite a few women who have met & married high-quality men when they (the women) were 30-35 and in some cases even a little older.
Of course, you shouldn’t be looking for the Five-Pound Butterfly:
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/12370.html
…but you probably already knew that.
@ Larry G I hope my comments didn’t offend, I dearly love my uncle and his family and am so glad to have been given a view into the Chinese culture. I have learned much from him and admire him greatly. So hopefully my comments don’t come across otherwise…
RPG, “@ Larry G I hope my comments didn’t offend, I dearly love my uncle and his family and am so glad to have been given a view into the Chinese culture. I have learned much from him and admire him greatly. So hopefully my comments don’t come across otherwise..”
Absolutely no offense taken, ok? Seriously, I found the comments interesting
Larry G… I only know the kinds of Asians who either 1) were so bold and brave that they came here – by themselves – leaving their families behind in the “old countries”, and then the kind that are already Americanized and are 2 generation born here.
I’m sure you are more familiar with the ones who stay in their home countries. That’s not the kind i’m talking about.
“Sometimes the guy submits. Like Abraham, when God told him to do what Sarah said. Or the guy in the following story.”
Richard, Abraham is praised for submitting to GOD, not his wife.
In fact, because he listened (submitted?) to his wife about sleeping with her servant, he did the wrong thing. God still used him anyway, but where do you believe he “submitted to Sarah,” or where did God TELL Abraham to submit to Sarah?
That sounds really blasphemous 😦
um no…Genesis 21. Listening to Sarah about sending Hagar away with Ishmael
8 The child grew and was weaned, and on the day Isaac was weaned Abraham held a great feast.
9 But Sarah saw that the son whom Hagar the Egyptian had borne to Abraham was mocking,
10 and she said to Abraham, “Get rid of that slave woman and her son, for that woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with my son Isaac.”
11 The matter distressed Abraham greatly because it concerned his son.
12 But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring[a] will be reckoned.
13 I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”
Stephanie,
“I only know the kinds of Asians who either 1) were so bold and brave that they came here – by themselves – leaving their families behind in the “old countries”, and then the kind that are already Americanized and are 2 generation born here.
I’m sure you are more familiar with the ones who stay in their home countries. That’s not the kind i’m talking about.”
Ok, understood. And you are correct, I do know the types of people who stay in their home countries a lot better than the transplants here. I lived and worked overseas for well over 30 years total, it was the US of A that was a foreign country to me on my return.
Stephanie, sounds like you would enjoy seeing some ancient places such as Mt. Ararat, Antioch, Jerusalem, Ephesus, Rome et al.
‘What I don’t like is that I seem to have developed an age crisis because of what happened (him cheating and leaving).’
I’ll tell you again…it’s a good thing you found this out now. Just imagine being married to the guy and he pulled this stunt and left you when you were say 39 or 45.
Have faith in the Lord, and pray for your future husband.
@ Rosalie, Hugs! I can understand why you would feel this way. But it is not too late by any means. The time you are spending understanding men and relationships now will put you at an advantage when you are ready to look again. In the meantime know we are here for you if you need to vent, these guys helped me through a similar experience. Hugs again!
@Stephanie: The verse gets kind of lost in the multiple verses that Larry G posted, so here it is by itself. And it is this verse to which I was referring.
Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. Genesis 21:12 (English Standard Version)
Your response to me is why I throw this verse out there every once in a while. Folks know that Sarah called Abraham “Lord” – and use that as part of their submission meme. Unfortunately, your response to me is not all that uncommon. Many folks only know those parts of the Bible that support their meme – and either don’t know, or ignore, the other parts that might suggest that things are a bit more complicated than their favored meme might suggest.
And, for that reason, I find it useful to ask from time to time: What did God actually say? It is troubling how many people are taught their favorite meme’s and then go to the Bible to find those verses that support what they’ve been taught. The reality is that it should be the opposite. The Bible admonishes believers to take in the whole counsel of God – and then from that whole counsel can meme’s be derived. Unfortunately – too often the memes are derived first, and then supported by part of the counsel of God, but not the whole counsel of God.
I don’t want to hijack this thread, so I will stop after making this one more comment. Another issue that exists alongside what I’ve discussed in the previous paragraphs is the meme that women are not to teach men. That is spoken in support of a favorite meme – but only by folks who have no idea of how learning actually takes place. Women teach men all of the time – because men watch what women do and say and learn from it all the time (yeah, the bad parts discussed in the manosphere – but also the good parts and the neutral parts). That is how learning occcurs – for boys and girls and men and women. We all watch each other and listen to each other and learn. To say nothing of the fact that part of her being to him the help that God made her to be is teaching him things that she knows and he doesn’t. So – when Paul said he didn’t permit … the meaning is much more targeted and precise than is generally presented by those who think women shouldn’t teach men.
“What did God actually say? It is troubling how many people are taught their favorite meme’s and then go to the Bible to find those verses that support what they’ve been taught.”
>>>>>>
Well, but it’s blasphemous to use God’s word for your own means in order to twist it to say what you want (that husbands should submit to their wives and do everything she tells you). Sure God said that one time and I’ve definitely read it many times over because I’ve read that part of the Bible many many times. But it’s never occurred to me to completely take it out of context and misapply it to all husbands needing to listen to their wives and do whatever their wives tell them. I’ve never read over that and started adding in my own interpretation.
Whenever you add to the Bible what it does not say, that’s blaspheme.
You are taking that one verse completely out of context 😦 God isn’t somehow commanding all men (husbands) to submit to their wives like Abraham “did” just based on this one incident where God was consoling Abraham that it’s ok to send Ishmael and his mom away. It was ok because God would still fulfill His plan through the (pre-prophesied) Sarah, and take care of Ishmael.
If Sarah had been trying to get them to leave or send Isaac away, then Abraham would have had to tell her no (as per God – aka… God wouldn’t have said ‘listen to your wife”), because they were also commanded to stay where God wanted them. That verse was totally contextual and based on helping Abraham cope with his strong emotions of not knowing what to do.
God was reminding him of the plan. And that the plan would still only need Sarah.
On the other hand, the Bible (so God again) does say for wives to submit to their husbands in all things. And then praises Sarah for how she obeyed Abraham.
It’s sad to see one tiny verse in a very strange set of circumstances (the emotions and concern of Abraham in sending Ishmael and Hagar away
Stephanie,
“Well, but it’s blasphemous to use God’s word for your own means in order to twist it to say what you want (that husbands should submit to their wives and do everything she tells you).”
My last 2c worth of opinion, ok?
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
I have never been comfortable having other people “interpret” the Bible nor put a spin on what God’s word actually says to suit an agenda or certain point of view they hold. The only one who can completely and accurately “interpret” this Bible is the one who caused men to write it in the first place, God Himself.
For me, all single verses, examples, stories or even entire books are part of the whole Bible. No single fragment is greater than the whole Word. I’m done now!
Sorry! Didn’t realize my last sentence did get written lol.
Richard, you are SO smart and I do respect you. I’m not trying to make it personal when I say it’s blaspheme to use that as saying “Well, sometimes husbands submit to their wives like God said to do.”
To me… taking something wildly out of context is just so dangerous. I didn’t ever see that verse and look at it as an “out” like “oh look! Here’s one case of when God tells a husband to listen to his wife and do everything she says… so that means it must apply to ME and MY husband.”
I’m pretty sure if you pointed it out enough in the way you are doing, you’d start encouraging women to misapply that scripture to THEIR husband needing to listen to them and do whatever they tell him to do. That’s scary… 😦 it goes against all the other verses on that topic (which is a red flag that it’s being misused).
I’d rather look at the Bible as a complete book – and wives are literally commanded to submit to their husbands in everything, yes, maybe there are some extenuating circumstances and of course it’s good for husbands to communicate (ie: listen to what their wives say to take it into account). But wow, I could just see the hamsters going with this verse and using it to replace the NT command and admonishing of Sarah obeying him as well as for ALL wives to copy THAT behavior, not the other way around.
Sorry if I offended you 😦 . It’s just very hard to see one tiny verse in a weird set of very emotional circumstances, be used to go against what the other verses say about it.
And Larry, sorry I didn’t respond, I agree with all of God’s word being capable of being used. It’s just scary to see ONE single verse taken out of it’s context, and especially one that could encourage wives to think their husbands have to “listen to whatever they say and do whatever she tells you.”
Stephanie, agreed we should not interpret too much. Larry G does not seem to be the type of guy who would extrapolate one verse, so perhaps all this is a miscommunication? Seems pretty clear from past posts that Larry is the captain of his ship, not the other way around.
RPG, correct…
“Larry G does not seem to be the type of guy who would extrapolate one verse, so perhaps all this is a miscommunication? Seems pretty clear from past posts that Larry is the captain of his ship, not the other way around.”
I will not place emphasis on a single Scripture verse and minimize or ignore the overall context of what God has said. That is a recipe for disaster IMO, mere men twisting words to suit themselves.
Here is my final contribution for the evening…and this is the core and ultimate reason for my own faith.
Hebrews 9:27-28
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
I guess I was more talking to RichardP ? What Larry said about the verse putting it context and together with the whole Bible – to me that’s how it should be.
But with internet communication, it could totally be a mishap of wording! Sorry
I was trying to respond to Richard P’s comment that said this —
“Sometimes the guy submits. Like Abraham, when God told him to do what Sarah said.”
It’s a lot deeper than that I think. I haven’t had time tonight to look up the meaning in Hebrew of that verse compared to the NT verses that talk about wives submitting to see if it’s the same (although it’d be Hebrew to Greek, it’s still fairly easy to understand these meanings). Or one could look up old commentaries online to see what Bible scholars have to say about Abraham “submitting” to Sarah. We don’t know it was that actual word at all.
I don’t know… I was always taught in my Christian school to research everything, exhaust everything, and test everything before you decide what it may mean.
I see, I misunderstood, too. In any case, I do think women arguing w men over scripture is probably not ideal either.
I’d find it highly unlikely any regular male commentor here would say that passage means Sarah should be the boss.
I’d have to reread the passage, but wasn’t the whole thing about having the servant bear a child Sarah’s idea? Rather than her trusting God would keep his promise that despite how impossible it seemed SHE would be the one to have his son? Wasn’t it all her lost faith (and trying to lead) that led to the situation? As I said I would have to look back over this but my foggy memory seems to recall this whole thing being a lack of HER faith?
Totally off topic but I had to look it up. There’s more to this story including the promise of a family despite advanced age and a son born to the couple after this but here’s the middle part:
——————————
Genesis 16 New International Version (NIV)
Hagar and Ishmael
16 Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; 2 so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”
Abram agreed to what Sarai said. 3 So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. 4 He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.
When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.”
6 “Your slave is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.
7 The angel of the Lord found Hagar near a spring in the desert; it was the spring that is beside the road to Shur. 8 And he said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?”
“I’m running away from my mistress Sarai,” she answered.
9 Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”
11 The angel of the Lord also said to her:
“You are now pregnant
and you will give birth to a son.
You shall name him Ishmael,[a]
for the Lord has heard of your misery.
12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
toward[b] all his brothers.”
13 She gave this name to the Lord who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen[c] the One who sees me.” 14 That is why the well was called Beer Lahai Roi[d]; it is still there, between Kadesh and Bered.
15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.
————–
Seems the fallout of her choice to try to make God’s will happen rather than believe HE would do so, and talking her husband into it, persist to this day, imagine that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael
Another version of the tale, for kids. Tells the before and after…Leaves out the whole Ishmel thing… maybe that part was too hard to explain on a kid level?
@Stephanie: I have only read the first couple of lines of your response to me and it is clear to me that I must point out what I actually wrote. I have not read the rest of what is written in the thread and won’t until tomorrow – so I may be repeating what others have said. And I expect that I will agree in the main with everything you say except how you are characterizing what I said)
This is what I said:
Sometimes the guy submits. Like Abraham, when God told him to do …
Sometimes. The guy. Not all men. Not all husbands. Not all the time. Sometimes.
When it is necessary. Like, when God tells you to (Abraham). Or circumstances require it (the fellow in my story).
That was meant as a lead-in to my point that the fellow whose wife was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis on his wedding night immediately ended up with a life totally different than he thought he was getting. Yet he honored his commitment to his principles (“for better or worse”). Although we agree that God created the wife to be a help to her husband, this was an example that, in this case, it was the husband that was the help for his wife – as she.became increasingly incapacitated. That was a change in what we generally consider the Biblical order of things. Just like the situation with Abraham, who had a wife who called him Lord, but was told by God to listen to his wife (and Abraham trusted God, and so did as God said – commitment to principle). Hence, my lead-in statement sometimes the guy submits. With God’s approval (keeping a vow “in sickness and in health). Or at God’s insistance (Abraham).
That was my point. Things don’t always work out the way we think they are going to. People do not always perform the way we were led to believe they would perform. (Those are two things that Abraham and the subject of my story had in common.) Commitment to principles rather than simply commiting to a person helps us get through the changes in life. People may change. Principles don’t. Commiting to principles rather than only to people helps create stability in chaotic situations.
That is the theme that has been running through the threads here recently. And that theme is expressed by different folks in different ways – but they are all addressing the same issues. Folks are fickle. Everybody in your life will fail you in some way at some point. Don’t focus on folks. Focus on principles A lady television actor said in an interview once: If you are going to love somebody, then just stand there and do it. Shakespeare talked about it in Love’s not love which alters when it alteration finds. The title to this thread says Commit to your choice. All encourage us to commit to the principle, not just the person.
“I see, I misunderstood, too. In any case, I do think women arguing w men over scripture is probably not ideal either.” LOL! Yeah, probably not a great idea, RPG. Although men arguing over Scripture has seemed to have caused minor difficulties in the past too without much female input. This is why a person should take care to really listen to what is being taught or preached in any church…much of it is mental cotton candy rather that spiritual meat
Yes, Bloom, Sarah failed miserably when it came to believing God would give Abraham a child through her womb. But she’s not remembered for that in the New Testament, instead she’s remembered for the times (there were many) when she followed and obeyed Abraham and submitted to him and leadership (even though he failed many times – she is praised for following anyway).
Abraham made many mistakes in leading Sarah, but he’s not remembered for his mistakes either. Instead he and Sarah are BOTH regarded as “heroes in faith” in Hebrews 11 and then again she is praised for the good things she did in 1 Peter.
Here’s what I wrote on Sarah regarding how she is praised for having faith in God and obeying Abraham in many instances where it would have been hard for her to do so –
http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2018/02/05/sarah-she-did-what-was-good-did-not-give-way-to-fear/
As far as arguing Scripture with men, it’s helped me get a better understanding how to counter these false views when writing for women, to see how Richard thinks.
Topics he’s brought up before that bothered me when thinking how they apply to wives:
1) He’s claimed many different times that women’s hormones control them… or that disorders like PCOS are valid excuses for negative behaviors because women have no control over them. It’s helped my writing to see someone’s views like this.
2) He’s also brought up how different personalities contribute to divorce – specifically, that you can’t have both a high achieving husband and also be able to enjoy life together with him. You’ll either be lonely all the time, or have someone who doesn’t achieve much in life. To me.. this is another topic that’s worth writing about for women.
3) And then the whole menopause discussion. If I remember right, RP was claiming women cannot control themselves as per those comments on the menopause thread, and therefore (he said) older women shouldn’t probably be teaching younger women biblical principles of loving their children and husband, being keepers of the home, etc.
That’s um… directly against what the Bible says. The Bible explicitly tells older women to teach younger women certain things. But it’s interesting to see how someone views all these things so differently. To me it’s worth it to try to figure out if it’s really blaspheme, or what he’s meaning.
Another topic that he’s brought up indirectly is that women with disabilities should be expected to maybe not have sex? I can’t tell if that’s what he meant by the husband having to “submit” to his wife from their wedding night on, or not.
To me… I know this is hard, but women should still try to have sex with their husbands even when they have problems that may make it hard or even painful. I know I know… I sound like a total troll, but just like with the PCOS, or period mood swings, or menopause, you can often find a way to meet in the middle with the woman at least partially trying to control some of it.
With MS… women can still try to have sex or do other things to help their husband have sexual pleasure. I hope the lady in his story didn’t just go “Oh well! That’s it I guess… now that I’ve hooked you, you aren’t goign to get any sexual pleasure for the rest of your life – Sorry!”
Hopefully she had a better attitude about it, but he doesn’t really say.
http://www.verywellhealth.com/sex-tips-for-women-with-multiple-sclerosis-ms-sex-2440626
As per point 2)… that discussion also brought up how no matter who you marry, God may change the course of their plans or call them to do something you’re not ok with completely. Like the missionary couple we know who moved to Siberia. That discussion with Richard about how no matter who you marry, you may end up lonely a lot or on a different path, sparked me to plan to ask her to write how she’s dealt with submitting and following her husband to Siberia.
I hope I get to write that post, I think it may help a lot of wives to see her example and read what she’s done to help emotionally to go through that. But it was inspired through seeing what he was saying about how women need to figure this out beforehand, so they don’t get so lonely that they divorce.
“But it was inspired through seeing what he was saying about how women need to figure this out beforehand, so they don’t get so lonely that they divorce.”
oookay, Stephanie. Before I comment much (which, believe me, I really want to do) I’d like your ideas/opinions on what you consider valid reasons why a woman could/should divorce her husband. Being lonely is one?
“oookay, Stephanie. Before I comment much (which, believe me, I really want to do) I’d like your ideas/opinions on what you consider valid reasons why a woman could/should divorce her husband. Being lonely is one?”
Definitely no! Richard seemed to be saying that on that thread, even using real life examples he had seen of women who were so lonely, that they felt compelled to divorce.
Yes, I also got the impression that is what HE seemed to be saying “he had seen of women who were so lonely, that they felt compelled to divorce.” However, I am interested in what you personally may justify as reasons why a woman could divorce her husband.
I am probably mistaken, but so far I have found zero Scriptural references directing or permitting any woman cause to divorce a husband. If there is a verse, please give me the reference.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen scripture that allowed for divorce. On what I personally think, I think women should try their hardest to stay married, even in the worst of circumstances.
I think Ame has really great thoughts on that subject, hard as they are to swallow.
following the thread loosely.
i do have thoughts on staying married, but as my left hand decided to take an extended vacation 😉 … and this antibiotic is making me woozy, i won’t be able to type them out anytime soon … and i will likely forget to come back here later 🙂 . if you want me to comment on this when i get use of my left hand again, probably leave a comment on my blog. sheesh … just took that dang pill 30 min ago and it’s kicking in.
didn’t see any issue w Richard’s comments.
“didn’t see any issue w Richard’s comments.”
I’m sure it’s not his intention to spark thoughts of how maybe they could be misconstrued… but wow has he ever filled up my draft queue LOL!