attraction, battle of the sexes, dating, divorce, life, love, lust, marriage, red pill, truth
A guy friend I have known since college but had lost touch with recently reached out bc he’s going through a mid life crisis of sorts and is struggling with depression.
Why? He’s in an unfulfilling dead-bedroom marriage. Among other things. (He didn’t actually say the dead-bedroom part, but I can read between the lines.) He’s also tiring of pulling the plow. Without reward.
Then he said he feels bad because he’s attracted to other women and feels bad about his thoughts.
I told him Ton stories for a bit to make him feel better. I reassured him his thoughts were no match for Ton’s daily, and that it’s ok. Ton would approve of his efforts to think such thoughts.
Guys look at chicks and if the chicks are hot they probably think about banging them. I reassured him all guys (or most guys anyway, 98%) feel the same. It’s what guys do. It’s normal, even if everybody says it’s not.
He seemed relieved at the idea, completely blue pill and church raised good boy that he is. (Then I dropped the name and number of a guy counselor I know who would be a good person to talk to him about this bc I cannot. I figured Ton was unavailable lol. )
And yes ladies, surprise — guys who talk to you probably want to bang you. This guy maybe wants to bang me (or his memory of me, lol!) Won’t happen, of course, but if he didn’t want to maybe I would think something were wrong. With me or with him. Because, like it or not that’s how it works. Always has. Always will.
Just like if a woman was not thinking like all women do about men, admit it or not, I would be shocked. (What they are thinking is a topic for a whole other post but it’s basically, “What are you offering in exchange? Is it better than other offers?” Real, or much more likely, imagined?)
Spoiler alert it’s either top-possible provision and protection or top-possible tingles. Ideally both but unicorns are rare so… just like it’s the rare guy who actually gets to (gladly) bang every woman he wants to with them also all being totally super down with that, no strings attached, most women don’t get their 100% list either. Um yeah. Most everyone else (M and F) settles for some version thereof they can live with. Supply and demand. Reality.
In short nobody says it but men and women have competing yet complimentary initiatives. It’s maybe “ugly” and “unacceptable” to some but it is what has built civilizations. Always has. Always will.
In fact without it, civilization probably won’t get built (let’s also face it as long as we are calling out taboos, mostly by men who want to bang chicks in exchange) at all. We are almost here now. Google MTGOW if you don’t believe me. Or Japanese herbivores.
I doubt that any of that will be appearing on a “wuv u!!!” greeting card anytime soon so that is why we all have plausible deniability. Because if we all admitted all this, well that would ruin the romance! Wouldn’t it? Lol.
What do you think? Please share in the comments!
The sooner people face the facts, the better.
Roger Blakely MGTOW said:
I, as a man, am figuring this out. I have come to accept that all women are whores. Therefore, I deal exclusively with whores.
Sad Womble has a seven-year-old video on Youtube were he says that it has been the intent of women through the ages to hide their true nature from men. When men, women told each other, come to understand who women really are, men stop loving women, protecting women, or providing for women.
I am still to some extent living my life in service to women. There will be no early retirement for me. I will be on the job well into my golden years to make sure that I have enough money to pay for my whores.
Let me comment here on a slightly different topic. I posted a rhetorical question two posts back where I asked when a woman ever refrained from riding the cock carousel as the result of her intent to preserve her capacity to stay pair bonded to a man. Liz commented that it happens every day among happily married couples. I want to say that the concept is completely foreign to me. I have no idea what Liz is talking about. In my world women divorce men at the drop of a hat. For all of the women in my world, it’s their way or the highway. That’s why in my world (Southern California) marriage is dead.
Correct. I want to bang you too. 😉
I don’t think Ton would be much help. If this guy is late forties, he is questioning the purpose of existence. It is as serious as a heart attack. As for contacting you, could it be that you were always “straight” with him?
He needs to get on a path proscribed by Robert Glover in No More Mr Nice Guy. He needs to start living a life with other activities away from her. If this doesn’t work; its time to start a new life without her. Think not of the sunk cost fallacy.
He doesn’t need a counselor. He needs friends and activities. He needs to get out and about. He needs to take better care of himself. He needs to exercise and get his T levels checked. When he covers his end, including the NMMNG element, then he can figure out what is wrong with her. If she doesn’t come along, their relationship drove off the cliff and he needs to look at his new life.
@Roger Liz is correct it it possible, but as you have found rare. And in places where open hypergamy isn’t even shameful anymore (southern CA, NY, etc.) very rare if not completely unheard of. Sadly most women start down the path around age 14, likely destroying their ability to pair bond before they are even old enough to marry. A girl who doesn’t is actually protecting herself, not missing out. It’s too bad more aren’t taught this. The whores are basically completely given over to this — they don’t even want to have sex without getting paid for it. And in youth it works. But what about later? Where Liz has Mike and her kids, the whores (paid or unpaid) will have nothing.
Ih8looking back lol. I am flattered thank you!
@fuzzie Ton is an extreme example, but a good comparison. This guy has been raised to be “a good guy” to the extreme. Ton doesn’t give a hoot about “being a good guy.” I told him Ton stories to help him feel less bad about his completely normal and natural guy feelings. And yes I was always straight with him. True.
He married his wife because she wanted him to. And his friends and family wanted him to. Not because he wanted to. But he did because “he’s a nice guy.” 25 years later (they never had kids, his choice) he’s now asking why? Why did he do that? I feel for them both. Her too, actually. They may be longtime married but not in a Mike and Liz way. It’s sad. Lots of people are in situations like this.
@freemattpodcast I would agree. This counselor I recommended would tell him what you just said. But agreed, most would not. He does need friends and activities and to get out. And the NMMNG would be huge too. He’s probably the nicest guy I have ever met. Even in college he was so nice. And he’s good looking too, so it’s not that. But the gals didn’t go for him because he was almost uncomfortably nice. The ultimate blue pill guy. It’s going to be a huge amount of stuff for him to unpack. A lifetime.
Again you held back details, but Ton is a horrible example to follow. I shouldn’t have to explain why. If this guy is going for counseling, he is in deep shit. The problem with counseling is that it is overwhelmingly feminist and they will kill him. I do remember a livestream with Paul Elam and Tara Palmatier about that and, between them, they couldn’t mention five people they could trust with men’s issues.
As for advice to pass on to him, if she has “dead bedroomed” the marriage, she has killed it. Best for him to leave.
I want to say that the concept is completely foreign to me. I have no idea what Liz is talking about. In my world women divorce men at the drop of a hat. For all of the women in my world, it’s their way or the highway. That’s why in my world (Southern California) marriage is dead.
I don’t doubt it. California is largely a failed culture. Failed cultures lead to dysfunction the world over. Most problems are people problems. Humans are mimics. Imagine being on a big highway in bumper to bumper traffic with people shouting expletives at each other from their cars. The anger starts to rise, it’s almost inevitable. “You’ve seen people driving while waving, smiling, in a pleasant mood and letting people pass them? That doesn’t exist!” Well, yes it does….it’s just rare on certain highways, and if you’ve never been anywhere else, that’s your world.
I should add, going on the internet and looking at all the other dysfunctional highways in the world probably isn’t going to improve your world view much either.
And, since pleasantness doesn’t draw much interest or attention (Jerry Springer never invited the nicest family in the world on to his show), it can seem like such things don’t exist.
David Foster said:
Regarding “niceness”…I think this often translates as “safeness”. There is a passage in one of the Narnia books in which one of the children asks, about the lion: “Is he quite safe?”
To which the reply is, “He’s not safe at all….but he’s good.”
If goodness is confused with wimpiness, then then the market value of goodness will fall, and has.
Gah, we hav heavy snows right now and it’s interfering with my internet. Just wrote a post that got lost so I’ll try to be brief this time.
I think most men and women have an existential “crisis” of sorts when they approach or arrive at middle age. That’s true even if they’re in a happy and well adjusted family. I went through it, Mike went through it (that’s when he left active duty the first time and went reserves, and he went through a few different jobs then, dissatisfied with all of them). It helps to have hobbies (as someone mentioned above). His hobbies keep him busy now, and he likes to spend time doing them with our boys (as does the home construction, and moving to an entirely different part of the world with weather we aren’t accustomed to has offered challenges). He also has a lot of solid male friendships, and that is important too.
A counselor for himself might be worth while. Doubtful that marriage counseling would do much.
Each person should, at some point, come to understand themselves and then decide what they want to do about it. For example I have discovered over the last 2 years are so that I have some codependency issues. Now that I know, I can start doing something about it. I would be surprised if this friend does not have some codependency issues as well. I think 95%+ of ‘nice guys’ do. This is one of the reasons that woman do not find them attractive, because they tend to come across as needy in someway.
It would be good for this man to find out who he is or who he wants to be, regardless of the wife. Then he can make plans and decide to invite the wife along (or not).
@roger. There are some women as Liz describes. Agreed that California would not be the place to find them. Even if you could find one, many of them would reject you because of the choices you have made.
@fuzzie from what he’s said the dead bedroom may be coming from his side. And true he will never be like Ton. If he moved in that direction 10%, 20%, 30%, not 100% (he would not be able to do it anyway) it would actually be good. That’s what I am trying to say. Less nice guy more bad guy. And unapologetic about the bad guy part, not wracked w guilt.
Normally I would not recommend counselors but this particular one guaranteed would tell him, “yes you look at women and want to bang them, all guys do.” And then help him accept the masculine side of himself is ok. kind of like a fatherly figure.
What I see and this is a real danger, is he’s looking to women to guide him. That’s not going to work. Were I not nice I could work this guy over and take advantage like no tomorrow. I won’t, of course, but if he’s not careful some woman will.
Before I found the manosphere I actually believed all my guy friends just wanted to be friends! I remember clearly the day the guys clued me in. I was totally unaware if it up to that point. They were all just “too nice” to say, “so… wanna shag?” I may have even been interested in some of them had I known but I truly had no clue!
The only guy I know irl who is honest about this is Hercules. He asks every time if I want to shag. I explain why it’s not possible but thank you I am flattered. His reply? “Ok wanna shag?” Lol. It’s become almost a routine, I think he likes being told no. I am pretty sure most say yes.
He has to say “I don’t want to live this way anymore. There will be a change or there will be a change.”
To himself, to her, to life.
Its just a question of how he gets there.
If he doesn’t then he deserves to wear the plowhorse harness because no one but himself will save him.
True horseman. I hope he will, for everyone’s sake.
Interestingly I looked them up on FB and unlike most women she’s gotten dramatically MORE attractive with age. I remember as that ungainly gal built like an East German washerwoman, ver plsin, homely. Today she is thin, fit, stunning. Maybe he has reverse wife goggles? Like he sees her like she was then? Sad really.
But yes. Only he can save himself. Nobody else can save him. We’ve had some interesting discussions but I don’t want him to become dependent on me, not sure where to draw that line.
I have noticed he’s got a bad case of she-worship going on. That’s another part of the blue pill… women also don’t like that, unless they are dominatrix’s maybe. Otherwise it’s icky. But even domanatrix’s say they can’t feel attraction to the guys even though they understand it and exploit it.
Ash Pariseau said:
Bet he wouldn’t feel so bad knowing his wife is also fantasizing about other men too. It’s definitely something women do too. Single or married. Good marriage or bad marriage. Literally doesn’t matter. People find various people sexy.
But they are just thoughts. The line is drawn when thinking about others impacts the marriage negatively, and of course when any of it is acted upon by cheating.
LOL Ash’s post reminded me of many Christmases past.
When we were stationed at Osan, the “Promise Keepers” were big.
(Mike was never invited, strangely-I’m kidding when I say strangely)
One of our friends was the head of the local chapter (or whatever they called it). He was once at the shoppette with Mike and mentioned he “had to look away from” the latest issue of Cosmopolitan. For fear of sin. Mike thought this so odd he told me about it. I was good friends with his wife and one day we walked into a room when the movie “Top Gun” was playing. The volleyball scene of all things!
She giggled and said, “This is my favorite part!”
That is true Ash. I didn’t say quite that but that everyone has thoughts they don’t act upon and that his were likely pretty tame compared to most! I would agree, people fantasize about stuff they probably wouldn’t even enjoy in real life, but in their mind it’s safe and hey if it helps one out, I see no harm in it! I think feeling guilty about or worrying about it is what makes it a problem, because then it can become an addiction or fetish or something that person feels compelled to act out on in a harmful way to themself or others. Agreed.
Semi related, I saw a comedian the other day do a skit about why men kneel when they propose. He said it’s because they want to be at eye level with the one they are asking — the P. He then ranted on how it’s so unfair the P has to be attached to this crazy other creature he would rather not deal with, called “the woman.” Lol. It was pretty funny! And likely uncomfortably true.
Nature designed it so. A botonist once said it’s all about sex. Even with plants. Nothing isn’t about sex, she claimed. Flowers for example. All about attracting that pollinator to get the seeds set. It was an interesting idea.
She gave examples of plants that pollinate via wind, small dull flowers. No need to attract a bee!
Farm Boy said:
Before I found the manosphere I actually believed all my guy friends just wanted to be friends!
Perhaps you should write a post about yourself before and after
This is for Liz,
I had no idea. When I was a kid, I read about Masters and Johnson in Time magazine. While they have to be long dead by now, they did have some success. The story that stands out to me is one about a guy whose first experience was in the backseat of a VW Bug. To those who have never been there, there is room for two very skinny, friendly people sitting down with their knees under their chins. The guy was so traumatized, he thought he was impotent. That was an easy fix, but they were the only ones to look into solving his issue.
Your guy is whole different kettle of fish, but fixing himself is going to be a lot easier than fixing his wife.
Hard core for Liz,
Once people make peace with reality, they can start to learn how to love each other.
@seriouslypleasedrop it I hope that will be the case. What a shame all those years they have not been enjoying life and each other!
Roger Blakely MGTOW said:
There is an interesting discussion happening on black Youtube. Male and female African Americans alike agree with the following statement: Black men want to live Leave It To Beaver and black women want to live Sex In The City.
Mumia Obsidian Ali is arguing that black men and black women have grown so far apart in how they want to live their lives that reconciliation is no longer possible. The differences are irreconcilable. Black men will continue to walk away from black women. Black America is finished.
Good looking. Pleasant to a fault. Dead bedroom. (Impeccable dresser?)
Is he struggling with the dawning knowledge of what he is really attracted to.
Not everybody knows, or at least is able to acknowledge it, in the first half of life.
If not gay, then certainly low testosterone. Should probably get checked because there may be a fixable medical reason.
@roger at another blog a black man basically said the same. And that the trend was spreading to all men and women, not just his community. I have seen the trend grow just in the four years since. It’s not a good trend.
And again it’s the conflicting initiatives — a woman doesn’t want to give up her youth when her smp and map value is highest, and yet men don’t want to give up their own money and ways and such later. The power switches, women don’t see what horseman has said many times — these women my have a good 15 year run but it’s a big trade for forty plus years solo vs. the gal like Liz who has built up her nest and will reap the rewards for the next 40+ years. But many women are going for the 15 year Bc they can’t see it won’t be like that forever. Poor planning. Then when the day comes what do they say? “It’s the men! They need to man up!” Every time, no introspection.
True Richard P, I don’t think he’s gay but who knows! It could also be as Liz says, getting close to 50 and suddenly wishing you could do it all over and you think all differently. I went thru that last year in many ways. Eventually one makes peace with one chapter (youth) closing and the next starting (middle and then older age.) as they say youth is wasted on the young.
He mentioned a friendship on FB, says they never met in person but I think it was an emotional/virtual affair. Sounds like she was lining up her branch swing. When he wasn’t doing what she wanted when she wanted she cut off all contact. Likely is already working another branch. He’s lucky he dodged that bullet!
If black men want “Leave it to Beaver” and black women want “Sex in the City”, it is not too hard to figure out who is making a mess of it. This is compounded by black women having the weakest attraction from the opposite sex outside of their race. They aren’t shooting themselves in the foot, they’re cutting both feet off.
Roger Blakely MGTOW said:
One of the huge hidden benefits, something that is never thought about, of treating prostitutes as surrogate girlfriends and wives is that it removes jealousy and mate guarding. I’m not worried about what other men or women they desire. I’m not disturbed by the crazy monkey sex that they have with other people. I always know where they are and what they are doing, i.e., working (at the Marriott or the Ramada Inn). My job is to look after them. And their job is to give me the goodies.
Roger Blakely MGTOW said:
@fuzzie: Middle-aged black women who have husbands or long-term boyfriends dread attending black events with their men because they know that all of the other crazy-cat-lady black women are going to be there throwing daggers at them.
Consider The Seasons of a Man’s Life by Daniel J. Levinson, as it addresses the kinds of issues raised in this thread. Google on that title and you can find a pdf version of the book. The link below provides an interesting overview of the concepts raised in the book as they relate to the life of the author of the article and others. Bloom, the subject of your post may benefit from reading both the article at this link and the book itself, if he is not already aware of this info. For women who may not know this about men, it may also be an enlightening read.
Destiny and Men’s Dreams
Ghosts of Dreams
WE are all of us dreamers of dreams,
On visions our childhood is fed;
And the heart of a child is unhaunted, it seems,
By ghosts of dreams that are dead.
From childhood to youth’s but a span,
And the years of our life are soon sped;
But the youth is no longer a youth, but a man,
When the first of his dreams is dead.
‘Tis a cup of wormwood and gall,
When the doom of a great man is said;
And the best of a man is under a pall
When the best of his dreams is dead.
He may live on by compact and plan
When the fine bloom of living is shed,
But God pity the little that’s left of a man
When most of his dreams are dead.
Let him show a brave face if he can;
Let him woo fame and fortune instead;
Yet there’s not much to do, but to bury a man
When the last of his dreams is dead.
William Herbert Carruth
Thanks for the link Richard! I will pass it on!
I remember reading Captain Capitalism once on this subject. He refused to go into detail, but left it at “Black men are pissed,”
Thanks for the “blast from the past” videos, Fuzzie. 🙂
You know they originally asked the USAF to make that film, and they turned it down?
Really dumb move. So they agreed to Iron Eagle (even worse).
But Top Gun does have a better ring to it than Weapons School.
Iron Eagle did have a redeeming quality. It revived the Spencer Davis Group. This is a better example and it includes Tom Cruise.
RPG, based on the many clues you have posted about your discussions with the subject, I think that he is doing a beta hit on you.
He is selling the idea that, while the wife’s looks have improved, it is he that is rejecting her. He has access to intimacy yet he has developed a new fantasy of other women? For a clueless beta plow horse, his wife should be his fantasy come true. Few betas would walk away from that, because in that world, it is completely illogical to do so. No, he has been rejected for years and he is finally asking himself why.
He’s already dabbled in electronic sex with another woman, which gave him a rise, but he could not follow through with that one for some unknown reason. That encounter has emboldened him. Now he decides to catch up with a beauty from college and talk about his problems. IMO, this is the beta’s way to see if you are interested, especially if he does not know your husband.
@ih8lookingback yeah I am starting to wonder what his deal is. I did go on and on about how great my guy is, and made it very clear I am not single the other day. That seems to have worked.
Post Alley Crackpot said:
“And yes ladies, surprise — guys who talk to you probably want to bang you …”
Not every guy who chats you up over a lengthy period is actually interested in shagging you.
Some guys have been through enough crap that they have a highly engaged “identify friend or foe” mechanism, and they figure that if a woman talks long enough, if there are any weird things going on, they’ll get hints about them at the least.
These are often the guys who not only have the most to lose, but also the guys who have already lost a lot because of not doing this kind of thing at the beginning when the stakes were lower …
As for me, I just talk long enough to see if “the crazy” is going to come out.
It often does.