Tags
allure, beauty, character, charm, femininity, inner beauty, inspiration, ladylike, middle age, red pill, stages of life, The wall, youth
There’s a concept in the manosphere called, “the wall.” It’s basically defined as the point where a woman’s youth and beauty (and the powerful sway they had) have peaked and are diminishing.
At what age this happens can vary on a multitude of factors. For some women it happens early in life. (Think the former beauty nobody recognizes at her ten year class reunion.) For others, and less often, it comes late in the game. In some cases it can be a sudden change, in others a gradual slide.
Chances are no women completely avoids the wall (I wonder what Christy Brinkley looks like in person, minus the airbrushing?) but there are factors that can if not avoid it, soften the impact.
1. Genetics
Some people just age more slowly and/or better than others. This is why men often joke before marrying a girl, it’s good to take a long hard look at her mom to see what she may look like in 20+ years. One can’t do much to change genetics except know the likely issues (tendency toward weight gain, wrinkle prone skin, etc.) and take steps to offset them.
2. Lifestyle
A gal I know who was absolutely stunning at 18 had destroyed her looks and appeal before she was 26 with a lifestyle of heavy drinking, drug use, and a party lifestyle. She seemed to age 5 years for every one. Sadly even after she cleaned up, the damage was done and she remains a shadow of her former self. Tanning, tobacco use, and other age-accelerating lifestyle choices can speed the pace toward the wall, while good habits established early in life can forestall it.
3. Attitude
I know women who are still the center of attention well past “the wall.” Even young men are captivated by them, perhaps not as potential romantic partners but their draw is unmistakable and not solely attributed to their physical appearance. They often share a good attitude — they are charming, man-friendly, bubbly, and seem to shine from within.
4. Character
Another quality such women seem to share is they have character — their identity and worth are not based solely on their physical appearance but on their personality, wit, skills, and integrity. They are much more than a pretty face or nice figure, and have other valued or desirable qualities that aren’t diminished by time and age.
5. Feminimity
Women who lean toward the feminine often weather “the wall” better than those who don’t. Kindness, meekness, gentleness, grace, modesty, goodness, manners, self-control, beauty, charm, and poise are attractive qualities in a woman of any age. Often men describe such women as, “true ladies.” They are so rare in a crass and base world that they stand out, even when they aren’t trying to.
6. The “It” Factor
Women who remain very appealing long after youth and beauty fade have an elusive “it” factor that is very hard to describe. Men are drawn to them. Men fawn over them. Men seek them out in a crowded room. Men notice them. Men remember them fondly. Men enjoy their company. These are the type of women men just can’t seem to resist, and while there may be an underlying admiration or attraction, it’s not simply or solely sex appeal. Often the connection is completely platonic, almost idealistic. They simply like her and like being around her. Men feel lifted up after interacting with her, as if refreshed and rejuvenated from the weight of the world. Such a woman brings out his best and highest masculine qualities, makes him want to be a better man, inspires him to build, create, do, and be all he can. When the draw is romantic, fortunes, empires, legends, monuments, and masterpieces have been made or built because of and for such women.
What do you think? Do you know or have you ever met a woman who seems to avoid the wall? Please share in the comments.
(p.s. this article does not mean to deny the wall or even say women who weather it well have the same appeal in middle age and beyond as they did in youth. It’s just something I see now and again, certainly not often, and so I wanted to write about it to encourage women to try and be a woman like that. While some of it is luck, much of it can also be cultivated.)
RPG: Your points are well-made, and I agree with you. Imagine the pain that I feel as a fifty-year-old man who was perfectly happy to love older women and single mothers but who got nowhere or got repeatedly dumped. How is it that I have a girlfriend who is a hooker? How does a guy like me even know a woman like that? By the way, ladies, if one of Southern California’s best hookers is willing to take me as her boyfriend, that tells you that I am good-looking, have plenty of disposable income, and am good in bed.
My hooker says that these square church girls and college girls are coming into prostitution in complete secrecy. They have every intention of marrying a man, having a family, and getting away with living their future happy-family lives like nothing ever happened.
Once again, this is women’s problem to solve. Women caused this problem, and men have no role in fixing it.
Catherine, do you write or blog?
Liz,
So what are you trying to say with the “strong” and “independent” terminology? It reads as mockery to me, as if women are to be mocked for doing normal things.
Similarly, when women want the same basic things men want, like being their own boss in their own life, the mentality here is that it is some silly little frivolous idea to be found in Cosmo.
Is there something preventing you from being your own boss, Catherine? It sounds very much like you are your own boss.
The internet is replete with “experts” offering advice on how to do things, when they themselves have been unsuccessful and/or have no experience.
People on anti-depressants explain how to be happy, people without children explain how to raise them, and people with no relationship success whatsoever tell others how to behave if they want relationship success.
Deti’s statement: Most of the time, “confidence” in women is in truth bitchy; and “assertiveness” in women is in truth disagreeableness and high conflict. Men who want these kinds of women tend to be submissive men willing to give in to dominant ballbuster women. Not my cup of tea. I fight all day at work. I don’t want to come home and fight with a “confident”, “assertive” woman who is at war with me every minute for who gets to run the show and who will get their way.
The above sounds perfectly reasonable to me. This was your interpretation:
”I am trying to grasp how entitled a person would have to be to assume that, because he just wants to relax at home, his wife should just go along with what he wants. Don’t women want to relax at home, too? Or does that not matter? We should just be grateful that a man deigns to allow us to wait on him?”
I don’t want to be mean, but just stating some facts:
You don’t have a family. You’re divorced and childless, and dating a man who frequents hookers. Now, no judgement but there is a reason Roger’s whore is an alcoholic. It’s not a really healthy relationship/community type of job. From the life you’ve described, I’d wager you are either on anti-depressants or you’ve used them a lot in your life. There’s nothing wrong with that, but again we’re measuring success with advice offered here.
You’re interpreting statements exactly as a Cosmo article would, and you’re giving advice exactly as a Cosmo article would. And you’re getting the results that anyone who takes the advice from a Cosmo article would.
But, hey! Your life might be great…for you, and anyone who wants those results.
The relationship and marriage advise of most women today is 180 out from what they’d suggest to do on a date. Theme seems to be here is how to rope him in, and after that here is how to make his life a living hell.
Anyway, done talking. You have at it.
-Liz out
heh, response in the mod queue.
Maybe site no likey.
Attitude, confidence, assertiveness, etc….there is a kind of *magnetism* which some women project which is partly a certain kind of enthusiasm about things in particular and life in general. I say ‘a certain *kind*’ of enthusiasm, because extremely hyper attitudes and fake enthusiasm don’t work from this perspective. Anyhow, when this magnetism exists it is sexually attractive and and is also valuable in leadership roles.
It is *not* badassery or extreme self-conscious assertiveness, as being promulgated by various self-defined experts.
Liz,
No one is preventing me from being my own boss. That’s the whole point. It’s not hard and it’s not unusual, yet you mock women who choose to live that way (ahem most women in America today) as “strong” and “independent” in quotes. The implication is that you think it is absurd for women for women to run their own lives or have an equal voice in their own marriage. That fascinates me, because you yourself are a woman, and I can’t quite understand why you would think that way about yourself.
I had no idea that Mary Wollstonecraft wrote for Cosmo. If she did, more power to her. I have no objection to solid Enlightenment values such as the ones I expressed appearing next to articles about thigh-high boots, if that is in fact occurring. (Do you read Cosmo?)
As for my life choices. I am very happy to be divorced, childless and very much in love with a man who sees hookers. I have never held myself up as a model to be emulated but since you raise the issue – I suppose I am an example of choices that don’t fit the mold of what we are “supposed” to want but that actually work very well. This is yet another reason why women should run their own lives rather than having others dictate what they are supposed to do. (And, yes, I made the choice to divorce in conjunction with my husband and only after we were both convinced it was the best thing for both of us. Running one’s own life doesn’t mean not caring about other people.)
I think your question as to whether I use anti-depressants says more about your assumptions than about me. You seem to think there is only one way to be happy and productive. You also seem to think that taking anti-depressants indicates some sort of failure in one’s life choices. In reality, depression and anxiety can strike anyone in almost any situation. (I do not take anti-depressants myself but would not hesitate to do so if I needed them.)
Liz,
You found this statement quite reasonable:
Most of the time, “confidence” in women is in truth bitchy; and “assertiveness” in women is in truth disagreeableness and high conflict. Men who want these kinds of women tend to be submissive men willing to give in to dominant ballbuster women. Not my cup of tea. I fight all day at work. I don’t want to come home and fight with a “confident”, “assertive” woman who is at war with me every minute for who gets to run the show and who will get their way.
/end “reasonable” statement
This is a person who believes that “MOST OF THE TIME” confidence and assertiveness in WOMEN specifically means being bitchy and high conflict. And you find this a reasonable statement? So you buy into the idea that women generally are not confident and assertive without also being nightmarishly bitchy? It seems like you have a very negative view of your own sex.
Ash,
I overlooked your question earlier about whether I write or blog. I did have a small feminist blog in the mid-2000s (2006 – 2008) or thereabouts and it was a TRIP! I used to love inviting MRAs and anti-feminist women to visit my blog. I think it’s FASCINATING to get everyone in the same room (at least on a virtual level) to talk. But the blog started to take over my life and interfere with my work so I had to give it up.
Okay, Catherine, I’ll bite (against my better judgement), just a couple of things:
“I think your question as to whether I use anti-depressants says more about your assumptions than about me.”
Yes. It wasn’t a question, it was a statement (a “wager”, ergo a guess I would bet money on) based on your demographic (the demographic most likely to use anti-depressants).
This is a person who believes that “MOST OF THE TIME” confidence and assertiveness in WOMEN specifically means being bitchy and high conflict. And you find this a reasonable statement? So you buy into the idea that women generally are not confident and assertive without also being nightmarishly bitchy?
Quotes are interesting things. They can be used to denote something someone actually said (as your “reasonable” was a quote of me above), or something that is just stated a lot in general. So I’m reading Deti’s quotes as an indication he is making an assessment of women who call themselves “confident” and “assertive”. And it has been my observation also that women who describe themselves this way tend to be pretty hard to be around. We’ve had this discussion before, pretty sure….I’m getting deja vu.
It seems like you have a very negative view of your own sex.
I tend to dislike overused bromides when anyone does them, and I think poorly of the folks who used them. But women seem to do them a lot more. Men tend to actually be confident and assertive without the need to talk about how confident, assertive, independent they are. It’s the same for other empty statements like “authentic”.
Well, fine, but why are you applying the “strong,” “independent” and other clichés to me? I’ve never used such terms. I am an adult and I assume most adults are strong and independent. Yes, we have discussed this before.
I will give you this. There is a little bit of a pop culture tendency for some women to describe themselves as “strong” women and the like. And I agree with you that it can sound silly. But I would argue that it is a symptom of residual sexism in our culture. Men don’t feel the need to describe themselves as “strong” or “independent” because our culture takes such traits for granted in adult men. We still haven’t quite gotten to the point that these traits are entirely accepted in women.
Some women, possibly depending on background, have grown up believing that women are not or should not be strong and independent; therefore, it is noteworthy when they choose to be so.
Catherine said “Being a wife encompasses your entire life.”
Maybe of my generation 30 years ago when I got married.
Today? Not so much.
We know of exactly 1, singular, couple younger than us that is still together.
I wish it was different but its not.
Mrs is 55. Definitely beyond any standards of wall as am I.
Luckily she doesn’t have to nor does she think about it. Not a wallrelated care in the world.
Unlike several dozen of our friends,male and female, of our age dealing with the cruel effects of the wall.
We here and the media dance around the wall talking about 39, 41, 45 year olds who may or may not be post wall. Arguing is 41 post wall etc. Basically deflecting.
Soon they will be like us. Clearly post wall.
As in haven’t had a period in several years, full of menopause or andropause hormone fluctuations, no longer firm…anywhere. The “I don’t even remember the wall” set.
The first crop of true feminists born 1970 to 1980 are getting here.
God help us.
Imagine being 55.
Clearly post wall.
Single.
Another 10 years at least to support yourself til retirement
Another 30 years to live as a single.
Think about what that means.
When every day is literally you are clearly not as good as you were yesterday.
What that means to how others see you socially.
Think about it.
And let me know what its like because thank the gods I dont have to because of mee Mrs.
Hell just not having to do half the work of running a home at my age!!!
Oh nooo. Poor Horseman. I am glad you are married and happy with your wife! But I am so sad that you think that every single day, you will clearly not be as good as you were yesterday. 😦
I understand that many people desire a partner, but I don’t understand the mentality that not having one is such a horror show. What is so terrible about having to support yourself?!?
And what are you on about with how people would view you socially if you’re single at 55? Do you really think anyone cares if you or I or anyone else is single? It’s never once occurred to me to look down on my single friends when I was married, nor have I ever once felt looked down upon when I wasn’t married any longer.
I really think this idea that everything HAS to be a certain way (i.e. you have to be married at 55) causes more suffering than not. And I think it’s used in certain quarters to this day to scare women into acting a certain way others want them to act. But the truth is that every day above ground is a good day!
P.S. How is the Horseman MGTOW if he has a Mrs? So confusing.
Not sure if I’m on shadow ban but will offer the following. Nice to see some women actually participating on a women’s blog. Welcome, Catherine. And the other ladies for finally speaking up. As for Ash, I’ll agree with Deti … I’ve seen this behavior and attitude from women whose lives are melting down … and are on anti-depressants … and totally unaware … that their lives are being destroyed and they and they alone are responsible for it … and they walk around all day with a smile on their face … blaming everyone … especially men … who points out that not all is well in the universe.
Oh and learned something new today. Didn’t know that Fuzzie and Ton didn’t get along. Who’d have thunk it. But then again, I’m not here all that much anymore.
Peace
A) I am just saying I am realistic. I will never be as strong at 55 as I was at 35. Its called aging gracefully.
B) as far asd mgtow goes. The best of mgtow is not woman hating, giving up etc.
It is carving Your own way. Doing what you want. Not just conforming and being a sheep. Its making decisions and taking responsibility for it.
So I gave up a salary of 120k as an office drone to work for myself.
Where others have a new car I drive a ten year old kia but have five horses.
Where others have a mortgage in a suburb, I rent a wee cottage but own a beach in the caribeean.
Where others have the latest $1,000 phone my prized possession is my walking stick.
Most of all I think for myself, decide for myself and take the good and bad of those decisions.
I go horseman’s way.
And yes that includes a 55 year old slightly chubby wife who can’t cook, rides a mean horse, hums in her sleep and who I would give my life for.
If that hurts anyones delicate sensibility of what a made up term means? I care not.
@Catherine said: …so sad that you think that every single day, you will clearly not be as good as you were yesterday.
Horseman is going his own way, creating the life he wants, based on his own sensibilities. And I’m sure he welcomes input from his wife. She’s along for the ride as well, and he values her, so he will not shut her out when going after what he wants.
But … all of us are marching toward the grave. That is the point being made in this corner of the internet in many different ways. Some march today with a steady foot. But as each day passes, that foot becomes less steady. That is a fact of life. One day the steady foot gives way, and needs to continue in a wheel-chair. Or is confined to bed. That is the path in front of all of us that choose to not end our lives early. Imagine the difference between walking that path all by yourself versus walking it with someone by your side.
The point being made is that, when the day comes, you don’t just reach out and grab someone and have them acccompany you the rest of the way to the grave. If you are lucky, maybe. But the most successful path is to create that relationship while young and vigorous, and grow the bond bit by bit, day after day.
Whenever I hear the talk of the sort horseman has done in this thread, I think of the bond he is growing with his wife bit by bit, day after day. And I think of this story. When I was young, I worked in Washington, D.C. for ten years (wife with me). Most of my work for that time was within a few blocks of the White House, where most of the beautiful people of the world come to work. At lunchtime, the streets are peopled with such folk, scurrying about their busy ways. But amongst all of the beautiful people, there are a few folks a few rungs lower down on the socioeconomic ladder. Close by where I worked there was a cafeteria, run by 2nd or 3rd generation family members. Food for the masses, but delicious (there were apartment buildings mixed in with the office buildings nearby). I would go there three or four times a month. Every time, I would see this older couple walk in, hand in hand – both with disheveled hair and shoddy shoes. But he always with a coat jacket, no matter how thread-bare, and she with a perfectly clean and pressed but shabby dress. There was good breeding in there somewhere, even though money seemed to be lacking. Being young, and of the mind that things pretty much go on forever at that age, it never occured to me to talk to them and ask them their story. The years went by, and still they came to the cafeteria, although the gait was slower, and shoulders not as squared back. At some point I switched work to part-time to get my undergraduate and graduate degrees. So I was not at the cafeteria for a few years. I finished my graduate degree and six months or so later resigned my job in D.C. and took a position in Los Angeles. But I made sure I went to the cafeteria a few times before I left. I never knew them. I never spoke with them. But I had seen them consistently show up to the cafeteria, hand in hand, for years. When I went back to the cafeteria those few last times, it came as a genuine shock to me to see the visibly-aged couple come into the cafeteria – he in his thread-bare jacket and she in her shabby but clean and pressed dress. Her long hair having gone from grey to almost white. He sitting in a wheelchair, missing a leg. She pushing the wheelchair.
Some version of that day is coming for all of us. How much better that one is pushing the wheelchair for the other than that the other is in the wheelchair all by themselves with no one to care for them. Catherine – horseman’s point, Liz’s point, and pretty much everybody else’s point – even though they may use different words to make the point – is that the lady pushing the wheelchair, her devotion to that level of care, did not appear on the day her partner lost his leg (amputated for diabetes maybe?, although they both kept himselves slender). Rather, that devotion was grown over time.
Folks do find themselves old and wish they had someone by their side, to help with the wheelchair, or other stuff. To end up with someone by one’s side takes planning and discipline and denial of self and a good forgettery – starting at a youngish age.
Catherine – consider the story I just told as one answer to your question about why people care whether others are single at 55. If you don’t have someone that is committed to you to care for you in your old age, someone else will have to do that work. There is a social cost to that. If for no other reason, consider that not needing to rely on the kindness of strangers is a reason to encourage people to be in committed relationships by the age of 55. Because we are all marching to the grave. It works better if we have folks who genuinely care for us and are committed to us walking alongside.
Richard – what a beautiful story of that older couple 🙂
– – –
i find it interesting when we need to define ourselves … strong, independent, etc. i’ve found in life that those who actually are strong and independent do not need to speak the words; their actions and lives speak for them.
the thing about women proclaiming their strength and independence is that often it becomes a wall and banner of proclamation that is divisive. why do that? why separate yourself out like that? idk. it also makes them defensive and belligerent for no reason – to prove what? that you’re capable? good for you. you’re capable. just do the thing you’re capable of doing; no need to proclaim it at the same time. it’s amazing how many people see the quiet strength in people and are drawn to that.
we all have rough roads to travel in this life. better to travel them well with inner strength and building endurance than carrying a banner proclaiming your strength and independence.
also … i think that successfully independent people know when to be dependent. there’s no doubt Ton is AMOG, but he always knows who’s boss and submits to that authority. sometimes he’s the boss, sometimes he’s not. but he doesn’t have to state it all the time either way.
none of us is truly, absolutely, completely independent in this life. we all need someone at some point. those who learn how to be both dependent and independent with confidence are those who do so silently and are the most attractive to others.
Liz is very much dependent on her Husband, however, there is no way their marriage could work is she wasn’t also a strong and independent woman b/c he’s gone a lot … and you can’t manage a home, raise three boys, always be ready for whatever happens on any given day and able to deal with it all well and properly, and pack and move and unpack every year for twenty-five years without being strong and independent.
people proclaiming who they are are often just blowing fluff around. those who truly are who they know they are are the ones to busy being who they are to make a big deal over it. or at least that’s been my experience.
Mega,
Thank you for your kind words!
MGTOW Horseman,
Well, shit, if what you describe is MGTOW, then I’m a female version. I’m all for people living with the mindset you describe, and carving their own path. Is your vision only for men?
I think PGTOW (People Going Their Own Way) is a very common thing in middle-age. Our culture mocks the mid-life crisis but author Stephen Cope posits that that part of life is a valid developmental stage. Many people spend the earlier stages of their lives with a mindset of pleasing teachers, parents, and other authority figures. This makes sense when you are trying to establish yourself in the adult world. But then as you get older and ARE established and are facing your mortality, you start to question more what YOUR own inner truth is. That’s why a LOT of people of both sexes make significant changes in their 40s and 50s and “Go Their Own Way.” Maybe it means making financial sacrifices to work for yourself and have horses. Maybe it means giving up the stable career you had in exchange for a labor of love. Who knows, but I think that stage of questioning and re-shaping one’s life based on one’s “authentic” self is something that should be respected more than it is. (With apologies to Liz for “authentic.”)
Richard,
Thank you for the lovely story of the elderly, devoted couple. That is truly an example of the beautiful aspects of marriage and what it should be.
But I was never asking why people might want to be married at 55. What I object to is the notion that being single at 55 is a horrifying fate. It seems to be presented as such on Red Pill blogs, at least for women. (though in fairness, MGTOW Horseman framed his comments in terms of himself.) That’s the emphasis I disagree with completely
I think this is a fear-based mindset, which I find odd in a community that includes many presumably faith-based people. The idea we see so commonly on Red Pill Sites is that women must live in terror of the dreaded “Wall,” and that a woman winding home alone, allegedly with her Chardonnay and her cats, is a figure to be pitied and mocked, a cautionary tale for other women.
The other ugly side of this narrative is that women had better be desperate to catch a man. Frantically take care of your looks, and structure you whole life around what Red Pill Guys like! Namely, submit, submit, submit!!! Otherwise, the guys won’t like you and next thing you know you’re an elderly cat lady – oh the horror!
Reality isn’t that simple. Certainly, there are lovely, mutually supportive marriages like the one you describe. But many elderly people who did things the old-fashioned way spend their most frail years widowed and alone, and many are trapped in marriages from hell. Meanwhile, older single women who have never been married are becoming more and more common and are far from the miserable, pathetic creatures described on these blogs.
My own mindset (in my late 40s): Take care of my physical, mental and financial health for the long term. Work my ass off. Commit to staying engaged with life no matter what setbacks I may encounter. Enjoy the hell out of male sexual attention while it lasts but don’t define myself by it and be prepared to let it go. Give everything I can to my boyfriend and also be prepared to let him go lovingly the moment he wants or needs to go. Meditate daily on my own imminent aging and mortality. Cultivate gratitude for everything I have at any given time. Care for others in my life but don’t let them set my agenda.
A loving relationship is a great thing, but not having one in old age should not be something that we fear or try to avoid at all costs. That mindset just causes more suffering both as one contemplates old age and when one reaches it.
Ame,
Absolutely! Interdependence is the word. No one is an island, and anyone who frames himself as completely independent is fooling himself or herself. Oddly enough, I associate that mindset more with men, particularly of the libertarian variety, than with women. When women cast themselves as “strong” and “independent.” I think it’s often in opposition to sexist expectations of women being more dependent than men, not that women think that they are islands unto themselves with no need of society or other people.
Whenever I hear the talk of the sort horseman has done in this thread, I think of the bond he is growing with his wife bit by bit, day after day.
Mike and I have reached the age when we start to think about mortality, and one of us leaving the other behind. I’m sure he would do fine without me, but after almost 30 years together and going through so much, seeing so much together, the bond is so tight it’s really hard to imagine life without the other. It’s definitely not a pleasant thought. When we were on vacation a few days ago he said, “I don’t know fry (one of my nicknames) maybe some day we’ll just have to jump off a waterfall together”
I answered, “Okay, but would you mind shooting me in the head first and then pushing me off with you? I’ll never be able to jump off a waterfall of my own volition” 😆
Just reading above, thanks Ame. 🙂
Actually, one of the qualities Mike said he married me for was my independence.
He doesn’t mean that in the SJW sense (he’d hate it if I had that personality) of course, he means I can traverse the globe with wee ones and set up a home alone and take care of stuff when needed, take over the social requirements of entertaining, conversation with new people, et al and represent well in unique and challenging situations and so forth. That helps him a lot with his job. By contrast, bringing a lot of emotional baggage would do the opposite (and we’ve seen a lot of people in that position exactly as Deti describes…they come home to an angry person and it’s a nightmare).
Rich.
Thanks
Liz,
It sounds like you live the way I grew up – in different places overseas.
I am wondering what you mean by the “SJW way” of being independent and why it is bad.
Happy Easter Red Pill Girl commenters!!!!
Hope all of you have a wonderful holiday ❤
…………………………………………………..
Squee Stephanie! Blessed and happy Easter back at yah!
(and to RPG folks)
🐰🐰🐰
Something I don’t think translates. It is outside the scope or experience of many.
The closest word is surity.
I have known Mrs at least as a friend since we were both 16. We are 56 and 55 now. It is difficult for me to remember a time when she was not just there. After all we have been thru she always will be. Its not faith or hope. It just is.
Like some southerners have no concept of snow having spent their entire lives in SoCal or such. Oh they see it on t.v. Know it exists. But dont truly know it in their bones like a northerner does on that last day of fall when you can feel it coming.
In days of old people had this surity.
For better or worse their lives had always and would always include their partner so they accomodated that fact. A stability in the flow of time, rememberence as the years change one, support to deal with what is to be.
These words do not do it justice.
Just know my friends that if I had a gift to give each of you it would be this.
Just know my friends that if I had a gift to give each of you it would be this.
that’s beautiful, Horseman.
that’s the intangible thing i try to tell people who consider divorce, but they don’t believe me. it’s not immediate gratification. it’s earned over years of endurance. so happy for you and your Mrs!
Catherine,
You really seem to have difficulty understanding other view points.
GoFigure,
If there is something you believe that I don’t understand about someone else’s viewpoint, I am open to hearing what it is. After all, I am here engaging, aren’t I?
Horseman –
a dear friend of mine finished his first Ironman this past year. he’s 50, and it’s been a life-long dream. he’s trained for years, literally years. he’s run and cycled other races and marathons. he’s had injuries and had to sit out. he’s had life events that detoured his dream and plans, but he kept at it.
and finally, he finished. his sweet wife recorded it when he crossed the finish line minutes before the final cutoff, and you could hear the announcer deep into the night proclaiming over the loud speaker, “______, You are an Ironman!” i got chills listening to his name being called and the proclamation that he is finally an Ironman.
that’s how i see life-long marriage. you stick it out. you keep going. there are injuries and life events and detours, but you keep your eye on the goal … and then, finally, you get to the latter years of life, and you get to proclaim that you made it and bask in the glory of it all. it’s mysterious, really, because all those years you’re doing doing doing, raising kids, budgeting to keep enough food on the table the whole month, working long hours, rarely having time to think about the bigger picture if one can even begin to comprehend such a thing … and then, suddenly, you’re at that line where you made it. and you get to relish and bask in the glory of it all.
this culture wants to demean that. the lies convince people to cash in their chips too soon. nothing, absolutely nothing, can replace what you and your Mrs. have. Congratulations, Sir and Mrs, you have achieved Ironman status in marriage!
Replicant Fish answered Catherine way better than I could.
“The red pill forces you to see thru the veil, in women, in relationships, in yourself. To see the bull crap. Many who take the red pill see how lucky they are in their relationships.”
It forces you to, as RF’s tagline “Focus, Observe, Remember.”
The very first present I gave Mrs after we got married. Just saw it in a store and bought it on a whim. Only thing that ever described it. Still hangs in the place of honour above our mantel.
It is called End of Day by Norman Rockwell.
Peace friends.
Catherine:
After all, I am here engaging, aren’t I? Probably.
Stop seeking to engage and start seeking to understand.
GoFigure,
Riiiiiiight. That’s what I’m doing. You still have not said what it is you believe that I am failing to understand.
Catherine:
You said: If there is something you believe that I don’t understand about someone else’s viewpoint, So lets talk about this woman named Catherine and how you don’t seem to understand her viewpoints, for a start.
No one is preventing me from being my own boss. That’s the whole point. It’s not hard and it’s not unusual, yet you mock women who choose to live that way (ahem most women in America today) as “strong” and “independent” in quotes. The implication is that you think it is absurd for women for women to run their own lives or have an equal voice in their own marriage. That fascinates me, because you yourself are a woman, and I can’t quite understand why you would think that way about yourself. Why does this woman project so much? Why is it she does not seek to understand what the other says but she seems to purposely misconstrue what another has said?
As for my life choices. I am very happy to be divorced, childless and very much in love with a man who sees hookers. Based on her other comments, I need to ask. When Catherine uses the word ‘love’ does it mean the same thing as Liz or Amy using the same word?
This is yet another reason why women should run their own lives rather than having others dictate what they are supposed to do. Why would she use the word ‘dictate’ here? This is the language of someone who has an agenda. What do you suppose her agenda is? Do you really think she knows women who are being dictated to?
Oh nooo. Poor Horseman. Why would anyone open a comment in such a purposefully condescending way? What is Catherine hoping to get out of this comment? Here is the answer in another one of her comments I think it’s FASCINATING to get everyone in the same room (at least on a virtual level) to talk. She is in this because she finds it fascinating. She is doing this for entertainment. Why would someone want to ‘engage’ for entertainments sake? Does the other party get a head up and a chance to agree before they become part of her entertainment?
Take care of my physical, mental and financial health for the long term. Work my ass off. Commit to staying engaged with life no matter what setbacks I may encounter. Enjoy the hell out of male sexual attention while it lasts but don’t define myself by it and be prepared to let it go. Give everything I can to my boyfriend and also be prepared to let him go lovingly the moment he wants or needs to go. Meditate daily on my own imminent aging and mortality. Cultivate gratitude for everything I have at any given time. Care for others in my life but don’t let them set my agenda. Here we see Catherine define herself. Multiple times in this very thread of comments she refuses to let others define themselves. Why can’t she seek to understand others? Why is she determined to redefine what everyone else says?
I hope this helps you to understand who Catherine is.
GoFigure,
Well, perhaps, this medium isn’t meant for effective communication between strangers who disagree. While it may be that I have read certain things that aren’t there into what commenters are saying, you certainly have done so. Perhaps it is inevitable in this context.
I am learning from your comment that it may appear from the way I communicate that I am dictating my opinion or what I have taken from people’s comments to everyone else. But my intention is always to ask a question – namely, “whaddya think?” and/or “am I understanding what you said correctly?” I don’t explicitly ask that question because I assume that those who want to engage will jump in to tell me what they think or respond to what I may have misunderstood about what they are trying to say. If you read the whole thread, you would see that Liz and I had quite an exchange about what she meant by references to “strong” and “independent.”
You have accused me of being condescending and not allowing others to define themselves. I deny that. But if I was, surely, you are being even more condescending in not addressing me directly and purporting to know who I am in my totality, something that is impossible in this context. You know barely anything about me or I you. I have never made any claims about anyone as a whole person on this thread.
You asked about my definition of love – for which I thank you. This is something I think about a lot because the experience of loving those closest to me – my mother, my ex-husband, and my boyfriend – is among the profoundest of my life. I suspect that’s true everyone. To me, love is very hard to put into words but, in general, it means SEEING and ACCEPTING people for who they really are. This can occur in transient contexts. Right now, GoFigure, I can’t see you through the internet and you cannot see me; if we could see each other, I believe there would be love, despite any differences of opinion on fundamental issues. Our common humanity transcends any such differences.
Love for those closest to us has additional dimensions. It means doing everything you can to support and elevate the person you love, even if it means letting that person go. It is also a willingness to receive love from that person. And I think true love never dies, even if the nature of the relationship changes.
I would be curious to hear your definition of love – or that of others. Meanwhile, I hope you sleep well tonight despite this rather testy exchange.
Catherine;
I did read every comment; including the ones between you and Liz.
I did address you directly, albeit in a 3rd person voice. If you feel that I am being condescending I am sorry for that. I simple used your words, explained how they come across and asked questions so you could better understand your language or explain yourself.
I will leave it to the more regular posters to further address you and/or answer your question.
For some reason I stopped reading here:
“I am very happy to be divorced, childless and very much in love with a man who sees hookers.”
It’s really the wrong question …
All too often, I’ve seen women doubling down on all of the negative things we men see as the worst parts of the so-called “wall”: doubling down on bitchiness, entitledness, unpleasantness.
That’ll do for many men as The Dark Triad of Ugly that comes with the “post-wall” woman, and it’s a phenomenon that knows no national boundaries.
But it also tends to come with a fourth hidden negative that might sound perfectly normal until you realise that it actually isn’t: doubling down on a farce of independence that isn’t.
Those 40s and 50s women with Permanent Scrunch Face that comes from years of bitterness at being “denied” certain desired outcomes, despite loads of go-hard go-grrl attitude, look like they’ve smacked face-first into walls, and so the entire “wall” metaphor has some visceral meaning to it.
Men see this and are neither attracted nor impressed.
When men further hear that this particular social contract comes with tenter hooks, complicating strings attached, and more conditions than a vehicle lease, they stay away in droves.
What I actually see some of this as being is a concept that hasn’t been adequately explored: the “gamma female” as a particularly nasty complement to the “gamma male”.
The alpha and beta females are getting what they want for the most part, the sigmas are doing their own things, the deltas are busy working at being comfortable in their environments, and the omegas are essentially invisible. These people don’t come up on the radar as being particularly awful all that much.
But it’s the gamma females with the warped narcissistic and solipsistic “BUT I AM A SEKRIT QUEEN DON’T NEED NO SEKRIT KANG” thing that really rankles, and they’re too clueless to understand precisely why they don’t get it.
Regrettably these “gamma people” represent a rather noisy and significant enough percentage of the population that you can’t get away from dealing with this unless you can spot the symptoms straightaway.
I’m not really in a mood to contemplate “Games People Play” and “Scripts People Live” games with non-professionals these days, however, given the things I’ve had to deal with in my life … go figure. 🙂
So the right question then: Can you avoid screwing yourself over to such a point that you’ll never get what you really want?
The wall is an acceptable reality if you’re not staring at it from the vantage point of oblivion.
GoFigure,
Thank you for giving your point of view – and Happy Easter (or Passover or pagan spring holiday, depending on your viewpoint/background). If we could have a cup of coffee in a coffee shop, communication would surely go more smoothly, but alas, it is not to be.
I am stepping back into the busy-ness of regular life this morning, but will try to check in from time to time. The tag-line here says this is a blog for “women interested in a Red Pill perspective.” Yes, I am interested in it from the point of view of objecting to it – and I haven’t tried to hide that fact about my perspective. But I am interested.
I would say it is a big deal based on how many articles written by women and for women about being single and over whichever age. Seems like a huge ass tell to this poker player.
Guys don’t write shit like that for other dudes. That’s a sign of it not being a big deal to men
“The cornerstone (or foundation stone or setting stone) is the first stone set in the construction of a masonry foundation, important since all other stones will be set in reference to this stone, thus determining the position of the entire structure.” (wikipedia)
everything has a cornerstone that determines the course of the rest of that thing. Easter is such a big deal because it represents the cornerstone of Christianity. Jesus came to earth through the virgin, Mary, conceived by God, Himself. He was fully human and fully God. He lived a perfect life – never once doing anything wrong. Then He offered Himself as the sacrifice for all the sins of the world forever. If He would have stayed dead, there would be no Christianity because God would not be real. But He didn’t stay dead. He rose from death, from the grave, walked the earth once again, and then ascended into heaven and yet remains fully accessible through the Holy Spirit.
“He is alive” means Jesus, who was fully God, is alive. so therefore God is alive. He is not and never has been a dead God or a temporary God or someone who wandered the earth for a period of time and left behind wisdom to pass on. those who not only believe (for even the demons believe in Jesus) but also choose to follow Jesus with their whole heart and soul become Christians, Christ-followers, disciples of Christ. in our humanity we still screw up, a lot, and still need a lot of forgiveness. but we no longer live for ourselves; we life for our Leader, our God. Easter celebrates the time that Jesus rose from death, from the grave, proving that death has no hold on God and God is bigger than even death.
thought i’d share why easter is such a big deal for those who may not know … thank you for indulging me 🙂
Just know my friends that if I had a gift to give each of you it would be this.
…….
Then I sure as hell hope we ain’t friends because otherwise I’d punch you in the face
It’s not just me. Now, he’s trying to pick a fight with Horseman. It’s not funny and no one is laughing.
Horseman – i took little bags of candy to my neighbors for easter – just a way to be nice and get to know them as most of them have raised their kids and are kind of in their own little worlds, so i don’t really have any way to get to know them. anyway, this one couple invited me in. their son, granddaughter and her husband, and two great grandsons were all there today. it was a delightful visit. i loved hearing them talk about their lives and family. they moved into this neighborhood in the 70’s when it was just fields. now it’s been all grown up for many, many years. as i was getting ready to leave he referred to his wife as “wonderful,” and i thought that was sooo sweet!
on my street there is this man who lives alone – also around my age. i heard rumor that he was divorced and moved here b/c his ex and kids live a few streets over. idk if that’s true or not b/c i’ve never seen him with anyone except his dog.
he’s always been a bit weird to me but some of my other neighbors like him, so i figure it’s just me.
when i did this at christmas, he was really kind of defensive when he answered his door, and he didn’t open it far. i just figured it was him. a couple months later he was talking to my next door neighbor when i went out to get my mail, and he thanked me for the little gift! i was a bit stunned in a good way.
when i caught him at home yesterday, he was funny again, barely opening his door. i’m guessing that he has a real bachelor pad in there and doesn’t want to ‘share’ the mess! lol! anyway, not my problem. i know he was grateful at christmas, so i’m sure he’ll be grateful now, too.
Ame
“…he has a real bachelor pad in there and doesn’t want to ‘share’ the mess! ”
ROTFLMAO, I resemble that ;-D
Fuzzie – with all due respect, if you force us to choose sides, you won’t like it.
please … just ignore him. just let it go.
just … let it go.
Fuzz, no worries.
Ton and I respect each other, just have very different outlooks about such things.
My gift to Ton would be a new Sig and a case of double malt.
My gift to Ton would be a new Sig and a case of double malt.
………
LOL nice and I would share the case so it’s a win win