(And So my college friend from a few posts back is in for an interesting day tomorrow.
He updated me today that the friend of a friend who was looking to branch swing (being blue pill this was news to him) that he was sexting on Faceboook but stopped talking to and who he hasn’t responded to for months has friended his wife on FB and is going to have his wife (who does waxing) wax her who-ha tomorrow.
Um, yeah… how cray is that?
He says he DGAF. But knowing the guilt ridden blue pill churchman guy he is, I wonder. I hope if it all melts down he is true to himself. If he is, it may be for the first time in his life.
I did warn him the FB gal has a motive here, and that’s to blow up his life so she can use him as a resource. His wife (who also sounds more cluster B by the moment— she tried to run him over w a car and regularly physically and emotionally abuses him, sadly — I 100% believe his actions are not the way out btw — but I can also see why he would be wide open to this other gal working him) also doesn’t want to lose her resource (He is a union craftsman making $70+ per hour 40 hrs. a week guaranteed whether he works or not, plus bennies and retirement. Who-ha waxing don’t pay that!)
[OT: Plug for young men to consider a union trade — I hear the halls are empty and have jobs unfilled! They will train!]
Anyway, I did implore him to be safe and maybe consider changing the locks and texting his wife he’s done, send someone for her things. Shits hit the fan, go w it. He said that was his thinking, already.
If he’s going to be the villain anyway, may as well go all in. Go big or go home, right? The people who matter will understand and the people that don’t will no longer be part of his life.
They have no kids. But the do have a dog, that she got for him shortly after she tried to run him over w her car. He said maybe they could share custody of the dog. I was like, “AYFKM?!?!” Fuck her. It’s his dog.
Maybe he is a jerk, maybe not. Maybe I am a jerk, maybe not. But being physically abused is a no in my book. Tried to run you over w a car? Ummm, yeah should have filed charges and a restraining order and then for divorce when that perfect out presented itself — but I understand abuse victims (and yes they can be and are male) don’t always see the forest for the trees they are mired in.
Anyway AWALT. Cautionary tale. No woman sextes a guy (married or not) wo expecting something. Much less gives it up in person. She may say no strings but trust me, the strings are there. Always.
Women trade sex for resources. Like it or not. Admit it or not. It’s as old as time. AWALT.
Any woman would be stupid not to, IMHO. Controversial? Yes. Bad advice woman to woman? No. (Not that I am advocating this level of frat but it’s a shit test and a mighty one.)
Red pill men get this — that milk ain’t free. Not even from a professional (but it may be more openly admitted and for a known price… maybe.)
Just know AWALT. Why? Survival. That’s why. It’s baked into the sauce.
What do you think? Please share in the comments.
Notes From a Red Pill Girl 
David Foster,
Well, of course people – often women – sell sex for resources. Sex workers exist. Gold diggers exist. And yes, some of those people enjoy sex as well as using sex for other ends.
But the contentions in the post were that women trade sex for resources, that all women are like that, and that this is a good idea for women. My response is that that is not a good idea because then if you end up trading sex for resources, then you are likely to end up servicing the man at the expense of your own sexual pleasure. This set up inherently places the woman’s sexual pleasure as less important either to her or to the man. No one seems to want to address this point.
BG, You would not answer the question I posed to you upthread. so no, I am not going to run around unearthing studies about a secondary issue I am only mildly interested in. My primary interest is in whether it’s a great idea for women today in our society to trade sex for resources. I note that you did not ask Richard for studies to support his contentions.
Humans need protein as well as calories…for non-agricultural people, the main source of that protein was hunting. Depending on climate, hunting could also be a critical source of clothing. I don’t think the Plains Indians could have survived without the buffalo, at least without a complete restructuring of their culture.
Stephanie,
I am not sure why you have the idea that I am uninterested in other cultures or that I have not been exposed to other cultures. I am saying that the points people are making about other times and places, even if true, are very much distinguishable from our time and place, and that they should not serve as a guideline for how we should live our lives in the here and now.
The cultures you are describing are patriarchal cultures in which men hold the hard power in society in every arena but the home. But I suppose you could perhaps call the homes in such societies little mini-matriarchies. The irony is that these little mini-matriarchies arise in the home when the public sphere is overwhelmingly patriarchal. Energetic women in such situations will use what little power they do have as mothers to gain psychological sway over their sons from childhood up and to utterly dominate their daughters and daughters-in-law – because it’s human nature to want to gain and hold onto whatever means of influence you can and in those places.
But these situations are distinguishable from a westernized society with strong feminist influences. If a woman can accumulate her own resources and have a say over the workings of her own society in the public sphere as we do in the west, she has little need to treat her son like a little princeling trained to grow up and worship her (“Mama mia!”) or to lord it over the younger female members of her family. Furthermore, the situations you describe have little relationship to how women do or are likely to behave outside the limited context of an extended family in a society run by men.
@Catherine said: I note that you did not ask Richard for studies to support his contentions.
@Catherine said: …it’s human nature to want to gain and hold onto whatever means of influence you can …
Studies, Catherine?
That is meant as tongue in cheeck. I just couldn’t resist. But … there is also truth there. There are things we learn from life that ARE studies – but they are not written up in Professional Journals. I think Catherine is correct about human nature. Not because of studies I’ve read, but from life that I’ve lived. And in the same way, other things can become “known” as well. So long as we remember that different cultures display differently. So we can’t extrapolate everything to everybody.
And Catherine – in the main, I agree with you that we are living differently with oil than we did without oil. And so, social structures are going to change. That is true. That doesn’t mean it is good. Even with the power that oil brings, and the labor-saving tools that result from that, women still think differently than men do. And men are still the ones who build most the the physical infrastructure that supports our way of life. Those two things, put together, mean that – even with the power the oil brings – women can (and do) still destroy things that men build. Sometimes through outright hostility. But, I think, more often the destruction is unintentional. Many times they do not see the interconnectedness of the construction of physical things. They do not see that, to change A, is to cause a reactive change in everything from B to Z. Sometimes those changes are so minor as to go unnoticed. But sometimes they are disasterous. And, because this is true – because women do not think like men, because women do not “see” things that men do, and in the way that men do, men still have to mount a defense against women destroying what the men have built. That truth will always be the impetus toward patriarchy. (Men protecting their territory from those who would destroy it, intentionally or inadvertantly).
I’m only passing by briefly and have only read this page. I’ve have not yet read any comments after my last post, but hopeflly can do so soon.
p.s. I didn’t want to interrupt the flow of the narrative above. But, re women destroying things that men build, often inadvertently – some of us remember Sunshine Mary’s story about the good kitchen knives and the dishwasher. That is an example of the kind of thing I’m refering to.
I am saying that the points people are making about other times and places, even if true, are very much distinguishable from our time and place, and that they should not serve as a guideline for how we should live our lives in the here and now.
One doesn’t have to go very far back to see direct examples of society breaking down. It’s happening right now in many places around the world. Those “other times and places” are our parents’ and grandparents’ time. The life of leisure we lead now is a relative tiny blip on the map of history. Not even the equivalent of a rounding error.
I am glad that you recognize that women do have their own sexual desires and needs
…….
LOL you understand so little like the best way for a man to have his desires and needs meet is to not give a fuck about hers
Alpha fucks/ beta bucks and fucks given about her puts you in the pay to play group. 0 fucks to give gets a man laid on the cheap
Why bother, its not gonna change what is.
Once the last capable man retires or just says fuck it and we are left with the soyboys we will find out exactly who is useful for what and who trades what for what.
It aint far off, it gonna be triggered by a lack of self sacrifice, it will be pathetic rather than violent (mostly), and a lot of people are going to suffer.
Its baked in at this point and I for one don’t give a fuck. Me and mine are gonna be fine.
Well, I don’t envy you guys – Richard, SFC Ton, and Mgtowhorseman. It sounds miserable to be sexually attracted to people for whom you have nothing but disdain, mistrust and lack of respect. It appears to me that you have cut yourselves off emotionally from half of humanity out of a fear of emotional and financial harm. And, given your sexual orientation towards women, you have cut yourselves emotionally from the very half of humanity with whom you would be most likely to experience love and joy.
And I thought it was supposed to be us feminists who are bitter and mistrustful of the opposite sex. But I, the mean feminist, am an enthusiastic proponent of romantic love, an experience I wish everyone could have.
I suspect that we are all heavily influenced by our personal experiences. I have a positive view of both men and women, and a positive of view of heterosexual (as well as homosexual) relationships because my experiences with both sexes in a variety of contexts and my experiences in relationships have been far more positive than negative. Those who have been burned in some way may have a different perspective.
Oh poor wording in my comment above. I have not been in any homosexual relationship. I meant to say my experiences in and OBSERVATIONS of both hetero and homosexual relationships have been more positive than negative.
Well, I don’t envy you….
I’m pretty sure most of us would say the same about you, Catherine.
Not that your lifestyle doesn’t sound “romantic”.
Making statements like, “what kind of women are you hanging out with?!?” in the face of actual statistics of what women report when anonymously asked (whether or not they like working for or around other women) shows that you are only looking at **your** personal experiences instead of actually seeking out the data and research behind the things you choose to believe.
You expect me to only look at the few women I’ve worked with in order to make a general belief. That’s what is not logical.
Like I said before, I have worked for two – count ’em two – really great women, but by and large my experience of having good female coworkers/semi-superiors is NOT the norm.
“The cultures you are describing are patriarchal cultures in which men hold the hard power in society in every arena but the home. But I suppose you could perhaps call the homes in such societies little mini-matriarchies. The irony is that these little mini-matriarchies arise in the home when the public sphere is overwhelmingly patriarchal. Energetic women in such situations will use what little power they do have as mothers to gain psychological sway over their sons from childhood up and to utterly dominate their daughters and daughters-in-law – because it’s human nature to want to gain and hold onto whatever means of influence you can and in those places.”
***************************
Sorry, I just don’t buy what you’re trying to tell me. We live not too far away from these cultures, I’ve been over there a few times in my teens for mission trips. We know many families that go back and forth (to their old country and then back here)… our city even is like a mini-Mexico. The women are largely feminist in their thinking and behavior, excluding some areas where they take advantage of the prostitution (lol since we’re talking about it) and try to behave more “traditional,” like maybe Brazil.
I’ve known many latin women who openly make fun of more masculine men… they have a name for them in Spanish called, “Machismo.” It mocks masculinity as some kind of caricature, and they openly make fun of the men who would fit that bill. They may be “alpha,” of some kind of way, but they definitely are not respected as a whole in Latin culture unless I’m missing something.
Here’s a relatively good depiction of the Latin familial set-up in a children’s video that was so popular where we are (little Mexico) because they recognized and loved their culture’s norms. It’s about a little boy who wants to choose a different life for himself, and his female relatives absolutely will not let him. My husband lived this growing up so he thought it was a good representation of how the female Matriarch (his great aunt in the movie) controls everyone, especially the males who have no other choice than to work in the family business making shoes…
This trailer doesn’t show that great aunt who denies him her blessing and controls and holds the family completely together lol, but she’s like the driving force of the movie! And the Hispanic people all over our state loved this movie… because it reflects an important truth.
“Furthermore, the situations you describe have little relationship to how women do or are likely to behave outside the limited context of an extended family in a society run by men.”
*****************************************
It’s been proven over and over again in research studies even recently, that almost everything comes down to how families and people work together… it impacts almost every aspect of your life and your children’s lives, into old age.
So your point is? Human connections are everything, and a good family can’t really be replaced and society has been shown to suffer for the loss of generations that would live close together and help each other with everything.
It helps humans live longer, as Liz already stated, to have a good, productive, happy family structure based on mutual respect and working together.
I’m not saying all patriarchial cultures are good, there are still evil men out there and evil religions that pervert what true patriarchy was supposed to be. But again, just because there is one or two bad examples, doesn’t meant that true Christian patriarchy was bad for society (adults and children of all ages).
Regarding those matriarchal cultures… I think it was Rollo who said something to effect of, “who do you have to ask permission to? because that’s who’s in control.”
If men can’t even pick their own profession, choose their own path in life because some Matriarch won’t allow it (and shuns him and pressures everyone else to as well), who really is in power? The Matriarch’s spineless husband?
“But these situations are distinguishable from a westernized society with strong feminist influences. If a woman can accumulate her own resources and have a say over the workings of her own society in the public sphere as we do in the west, she has little need to treat her son like a little princeling trained to grow up and worship her (“Mama mia!”) or to lord it over the younger female members of her family. ”
*************************************************
Again, this just isn’t true. Many examples here in the states where the women are feminists and going to college and getting well-paid jobs STILL act like this when the family is matriarchal.
Even my husband’s aunt, who is like a ringer for the great aunt in that children’s movie, went to college at UT, makes around 200,000 a year. She didn’t need men, or even her husband.
This used to be what kept society going. That the millions of Als still did this.
Most of the Als are my age or older. They are retiring or dying off.
We are not creating any more new Als.
What Al would do this for the likes of Catherine?
So her kind will have to do for themselves from their first career at twenty something into their seventies because no Al will ever do for them like Al does for Peggy.
P.s. I love my Mrs for over 30 years and 30 more. I like women. I just don’t trust them because I understand them.
Now excuse me as I bed down the ponies, secure the house and go ly next to the beautiful woman who is humming in her sleep..
Mgtowhorseman,
I am not sure what Al has to say because I am traveling right now and didn’t bring headphones. But I assume it has something to do with the traditional role of providing and protecting his family.
You ask who would do this for the likes of me. But I have never once asked or expected a man to take on the traditional role, nor would I ever want to be. But I am blessed to enjoy relationships of intense MUTUAL love, trust, loyalty, and care with my ex-husband and with my boyfriend. They both have an intense drive to make sure that I am okay and that I feel loved; and I have the same drive to take care of them. What that looks like may vary depending on our differing resources, capabilities, and the exigencies of a given situation. But I perform acts of love and service for both of them whenever I can- and I am continually amazed at what they do for me. It just doesn’t necessarily look like the traditional model.
For me, romantic love (not only infatuation but the long term, deep, romantic love) is a major experience in my life – something totally unsought for and unearned, but that has been a gorgeous part of my life. I am continually grateful for it, and I wish it for everyone. That’s why it’s painful to read some of the comments here – not so much because they are insulting to me and other women, but because they seem so antithetical to a particularly beautiful experience I would wish for everyone.
That said, it sounds as if you have found happiness with your Mrs. I can’t pretend to understand it. I don’t understand how love can flourish where there is such mistrust and perhaps disdain for other person’s capabilities. I would not be able to fully love someone who mistrusts me and/or disdains me. Nor would I be able to fully love someone whom I mistrust or disdain.
Stephanie, I will come back and read your comments more closely a little later and respond. Your mission trips to Latin America sound fascinating.
What do you do for a living, Catherine?
So nobody that post here has this. Sorry Stephanie. Sorry Liz. Sorry Horseman. Sorry RPG. Sorry to everyone here; you guys don’t really have this.
But I am blessed to enjoy relationships of intense MUTUAL love, trust, loyalty, and care with my ex-husband and with my boyfriend. They both have an intense drive to make sure that I am okay and that I feel loved; and I have the same drive to take care of them. …. I perform acts of love and service for both of them whenever I can- and I am continually amazed at what they do for me.
Everyone would be so much better off, if we could just accept things as Catherine has experienced them.
The idea that only making life choices similar to yours (Catherine) is ROFL at best.
That said, it sounds as if you have found happiness with your Mrs. I can’t pretend to understand it. I don’t understand how love can flourish where there is such mistrust and perhaps disdain for other person’s capabilities. I would not be able to fully love someone who mistrusts me and/or disdains me. Nor would I be able to fully love someone whom I mistrust or disdain.
You are the only person here using words like ‘disdain’ and ‘mistrust’. The reason you can’t understand it is because you are not trying to understand it.
That line should read:
The idea that making life choices similar to yours (Catherine) is the only way that lead to what you described is ROFL at best.
Gofigure,
Mgtowhorseman literally said, ” I like women. I just don’t trust them because I understand them.” And “disdain” is a mild characterization of Richard’s and SFC Ton’s comments about women. “Contempt” is probably better word.
Also, I was responding to the contention raised by Mgtowhorseman that no man could possibly want to care for me. It was HE who was suggesting that HIS way is the only way to achieve a satisfactory heterosexual relationship. My experience counters that.
That said, I stand by my statement that mistrust and contempt are antithetical to love – by definition, in fact.
Liz,
Yes, thinking of your significant other as your boss is much more “romantic.” I would rather not say what I do for work, but it is a white collar professional/service job.
Catherine,
If you were replying to horseman, why do you also ignore that he has said that his wife has earned his trust (he doesn’t trust other women) through the years they have spent together? Why are you responding to horseman about a topic that you are attributing to Ton and Richard?
Going back to the topic of horseman and trust. Have you tried to figure out why he did not trust the women he worked with? It appears that you just tried to tell him that working women are great. When Stephanie disagreed with you and mentioned that there is data supporting this……
Have you tried to figure out why horseman wears a body camera and will not work around single women?
Yes, thinking of your significant other as your boss is much more “romantic.
Indeed. The romance section of the bookstore is filled with the hottest best sellers about men who aren’t, and couldn’t be, and will never be the boss.
Darling I promise you two things
#1 I know a lot more about how women operate then you do
#2 that truth ain’t flattering for women in general. Not flattering at all.
“The romance section of the bookstore is filled with the hottest best sellers about men who aren’t, and couldn’t be, and will never be the boss.” ROTFLMAO ;-D
“But I am blessed to enjoy relationships of intense MUTUAL love, trust, loyalty, and care with my ex-husband and with my boyfriend. They both have an intense drive to make sure that I am okay and that I feel loved; and I have the same drive to take care of them. ”
So the Ex Husband still has an intense drive to take care of you and intense MUTUAL love, trust, LOYALTY. So why is he the Ex? Broken up but still loyal and loving?? Uh huh.
And the BOYFRIEND feels the same? Allows the ex to give loving support? Or to share the load?
One or both of them must be being at best friendzoned and used, at worse cucked.
Who exactly do you love and are loyal to? Or is the defintion of loyalty something other nowadays?
Or is this a matriarchial poly relationship?
And she doesn’t need either to commit to but “and I am continually amazed at what they do for me. It just doesn’t necessarily look like the traditional model.”
Must be one hell of a woman.
So is this
A) stringing multiple guys along?
B) riding a two horse carousel
C) the living example of AFBB
D) a delusion?
I love, cherish, protect and shelter exactly one woman.
The one who said in grade 11 a successful life to her was raising a family
The one who took a risk at 23 on a unsure but intelligent grad who had potential
The one who stayed thru near bankruptcy, several job moves and downsizing.
Who bore two children, raised them thru successful adulthood.
Who now sits with me on the couch planning our retirement and meaning until death do us part.
Then again maybe I should be more trusting of relationships based on mutual love of exs and tolerent dating partners.
Luckily I have the resources and ability to withdraw from this type of thing and ignore the rest of the world.
And you dont want a man to take on the traditional role.
Fine.
Just at my age 55 or 65 or 75 you better be able to fund your own retirement, take care of yourself, afford or take care of your residence. Not saying you cant but by not following a traditional model you are setting yourself on the road men have long travelled.
At 25 I knew I would work for life so Mrs didnt have to. So my career, spending, learning decisions were based on the knowledge that at 65 and too old or dont want to work I better be i a position that I didn’t have to. So my mind was set on that goal.
So now I work for fun but financially I could never work a day again in my life.
Many career women have an income but no assets, a house but no ability to maintain it.
I have died. Twice. As in about to be pronounced.
I have been downsized at 54.
I have had a bank reposses my house.
I know that my situation today can cha ge before I wake up.
And I know two things for certian. Know, not hope, not wish. Know. As Fact.
I will be in a position to deal with it because I prepared for it long ago.
I will have someone beside me because she was then and will be again.
mgtowhorseman,
Why bother debating with that lying and delusional train wreck? Laugh at her then ignore it
Agreed.
But one attacks me, my wife or my good name, I Will respond.
Then again my definition of Honour is from the old days.
You know, Larry, I thought the same way for a long time… I’d silently watch Liz try to reason with her over many many comments, but never felt the need to join in because it was obviously a lost cause (and annoying to be honest).
But she’s been commenting here off and on, for maybe a year now. She’s very honest that she only comes here to basically peek in on the “red pills,” and use her faulty logic to try to make her choices in life seem, “right,” and to repeatedly say how much she pities us.
Maybe ignoring her would be best, but sometimes it’s fun to expose her illogical thinking. She’s probably not going to go away… so why not expose how idiotic her arguments are if we have the time or interest.
She’s been honest this is just entertainment for her, and it’s clear she has nothing else going for her in her life (aside from hopefully her job). It’s both sad and interesting someone lives her life this way and has so much time to devote to people who don’t like her.
For you Catherine, it’s interesting that you come here when you *know* we have VERY opposite views from you and how you’ve chosen to live your life, and yet you still come because you seem to have nothing better to do.
Most of us come here for pleasure and because we’re, for the most part, like-minded individuals who have these values and core beliefs mostly in common. It’s fun commenting together because we all have something critical in common.
It’s interesting the women here, red pill women like Ame, Bloom, Liz and myself, we just do not devote any time to going to feminist sites where we *know* we’ll be disagreeing with them and have nothing in common. It’d be a massive pain in the butt and waste of time, so none of us do what you’re doing. Unless it’s thrown in our faces, I bet the majority of us don’t even entertain visiting those sites much, especially not to argue for a year with people we have nothing in common with and no core beliefs with.
She’s wasting her time, but then again, she must not have anything more worthy to devote it to.
Well said, Steph, well said. She reminds me a little of Calvin in “Calvin and Hobbs” and as relevant
There is a big difference,
Calvin is entertaining and often quit funny.
Horseman,
“I know that my situation today can change before I wake up.
And I know two things for certain. Know, not hope, not wish. Know. As Fact.
I will be in a position to deal with it because I prepared for it long ago.
I will have someone beside me because she was then and will be again.”
ditto….
She’s wasting her time, but then again, she must not have anything more worthy to devote it to.
Oh but Steph, she has not only a devoted boyfriend to cherish and do things for her but an ex husband who after the oh so amicable divorce still has a mutual love, respect and providing for her.
She must be exhaughsted in her so important job and keeping not one but two men on the hook and following the narrow path of the few needs a truly feminost woman has for men.!
Fuck me.
LOL! Horseman, she is simply full of shit
Stephanie
Well, being an old softie, I feel sorry for her Reading her bafflegab, I think of this:
“it’s the heart afraid of breaking
That never learns to dance
It’s the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance
It’s the one who won’t be taken
Who cannot seem to give
And the soul afraid of dying that never learns to live”
One of my wife’s favourite songs ;-D
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot !!!
Okay, one last try:
Hmmm, this old cowboy gives up, it is from of course, The Rose.
Now for a look at the other side of the coin.
“it’s the heart afraid of breaking
That never learns to dance
It’s the dream afraid of waking that never takes the chance
I came here to post the link below and saw what b.g. posted. To b.g. – I’ve had the same problem recently. I’ve discovered that if I leave the blog and come back in a few minutes, the posting is usually there. Along with the second and third tries because I thought the first ones din’t “take”.
Anyway, I was intrigued by what b.g. posted, re. “The Rose, because it sort of fits in with what I came here to post. That is, go build the best life you can. We only pass through once. (Well, except for those who are reincarnated.)
This is especially for Stephanie and Ame, in case they are interested in skimming through this link. And, of course, for anyone else who wants at peek at someone grabbing the tiger of life by the tail.
We have a lady doctor friend (also with four kids and a husband) who my wife ran into today. Lady doctor asked about daughter, and said to get back to lady doctor when daughter has graduated grad school (in another year). She and the lady at the link below are good friends, and lady doctor knows she is always either hring or placing Speech and Language Pathologists (SLPs). This paragraph from the link caught my eye, in view of some of the ongoing conversations around here about being all we can be:
When I am not in the office or at the hospital, I spend my time wiping bottoms and noses, kissing “owies” and providing car service to my [4] children- from preschool play dates to proms. Occasionally, I’ll make time for a hike or a date night with my husband, who was also my kindergarten sweetheart. Life is good!
Notice she’s not one of those girls that men meet in bars. Notice that she didn’t meet her husband there (Point: there are more girls to be had than just those you find at bars). Notice that she is female, has four kids, a husband, and a graduate degree, plus other certifications. Notice that she is creating jobs for others while healing babies, caring for her own kids, and servicing her husband. Life is good for her, indeed. (And, seriously, I know that some folks get better starts than others, so I’m only rooting for “be all you can be” rather than “be like this SLP lady.)
https://brightbeginningsla.com/?team=stacy-st-amant-payne
Don’t want to be oversentimental, but it is an interesting experience, reading that link I gave re. the SLP while The Rose is playing. The words from each seem to reinforce the other. Neglected children seldom (if ever) turn into competent adults. It is the love and nurturing (of which, discipline is a part) and cherishing that turns the seed into the Rose, the potential into the actuality.
And – while we are being sentimental, close your eyes and let this one wash over you.
Richard
Thanks, I am an old technoserf, as in peasant ;-D I meant the whole stanza for Caroline, particularly the inability to give. I tend to be rough when dealing with feminists, but I believe in being fair, She is not fair so the end of the stanza is particularly horrific.
My wife always enjoyed waltzing with me, but she knew I truly wanted more speed, we both enjoyed Polkas, particularly in small town dances. Humans adapt, but the family is breaking. We truly need more such hope filled opportunities because women are now afraid of male leading in families, and that won’t end well.
What I am suggesting is that some of the old dances might give the sexes the lost knowledge, to actually try the dance itself ;-D
Beautiful songs, thanks Bg and Richard.
I do wish Bette Midler would sing exclusively, and shut up the rest of the time.
Side note: Not sure of your point about the lady doctor, Richard. Yes, sounds like her life is fulfilling. Not everyone has the time, resources, inclination to be a doctor and there are some major tradeoffs to do so. Trade offs for the spouse in particular….the one who will have to raise the kids.
Richard –
Notice that she is female, has four kids, a husband, and a graduate degree, plus other certifications. Notice that she is creating jobs for others while healing babies, caring for her own kids, and servicing her husband. Life is good for her, indeed. (And, seriously, I know that some folks get better starts than others, so I’m only rooting for “be all you can be” rather than “be like this SLP lady.)
i could never do all of that – i couldn’t even do part of that. it’s not in me. i think it’s great that other women can, but i can’t and have never expected it out of myself. i’ve often said that my ‘plate’ in life is smaller than most and is often full. when i’ve been compared to other women it can look like i haven’t accomplished much. i just have to ignore that.
(you might be referencing previous posts in this thread of which i’ve only glanced at, so if you are, i have probably missed your point).
Neglected children seldom (if ever) turn into competent adults. It is the love and nurturing (of which, discipline is a part) and cherishing that turns the seed into the Rose, the potential into the actuality.
you’d need to define ‘neglected.’ i think there are different levels of neglect, the lower of which blend into abandonment.
i’d say i was neglected by my parents and abandoned in various ways – emotionally and physically, and i think i’m a competent adult. my siblings, while they have their issues, are competent, independent adults.
btw – love the song The Rose – one of my all-time fav songs.
Liz – Not everyone has the time, resources, inclination to be a doctor and there are some major tradeoffs to do so. Trade offs for the spouse in particular….the one who will have to raise the kids.
yes.
somehow the kids need to be raised – either by an adult, or they grow up on their own. my life was a loose mix of both – adults in the house giving very loose boundaries … and mostly figuring things out on my own b/c my parents were rarely actually home or my mom was emotionally MIA when she was home. they rarely knew where i was or what i was doing. we had very basic food to eat and very basic clothes to wear – not much, but enough to not starve or be unclothed.
in this day and time with dual career homes … parents are paying other people to raise their kids – daycares, schools, etc. i never wanted that. i always wanted to be the one raising my kids.
years ago i kept two little ones for a year – newborn and 2 year old. the mom told me that she didn’t want me to ever tell her ‘new’ things her kids did – she wanted the first time she saw the ‘new’ thing to be the first time it happened. i didn’t have a problem with that, but it did make me sad for her and grateful i never had to even think about that with my own babies.
Richard – i’m guessing there are very few single income families in california and therefore if a woman is going to need to work, it would be more financially beneficial for her to have an educated career job than a job that doesn’t require an education. it must be difficult to having lived only in such a culture and see sahm’s as being fully ‘successful’ in their lives?
while sahm’s are dwindling, i think there are still pockets of society where they are more prevalent and accepted than others.
@Ame said: i could never do all of that – i couldn’t even do part of that. it’s not in me.
That’s why I said that I was saying “be the best you that you can be”, and not “be like her”.
@Liz: SPL lady got where she was because of the encouragement and support of family and husband. My point was to provide a positive story about what love can help accomplish – love sort of being a subtext of this thread. And a bit of an example of “it takes a village”.
@Ame – I did not intend my post to cast shade on SAHMs.
Plus – Stephanie is aiming for four. So there is a bit of a connection there as well.
@Ame said: i always wanted to be the one raising my kids.. The SLP lady said that her two desires in life were to be a mom and to help kids. I don’t know this lady, but that makes me think that she maybe did the stay-at-home until they got to a certain age. To have babies and then always be gone would contradict her stated desire to be a mom I would think.
And I’m glad you liked the songs.
@Ame said: (you might be referencing previous posts in this thread of which i’ve only glanced at, so if you are, i have probably missed your point).
Read Catherine’s posts. Compare her life to the life of the SLP lady.
What might it have been that made the difference between these two lives?
And, no joke, this song is playing as I’m typing this – Love Will Keep Us Alive” I was standing all alone against the world outside … you were searching for a place to hide … lost and lonely, now you’ve given me the will to survive. When were’re hungry, love will keep us alive Eagles
Even as there are different kinds of neglest, so also are there different kinds of love. Probably the best kind is the one that turns the seed into the Rose.
@b.g. said: What I am suggesting is that some of the old dances might give the sexes the lost knowledge, to actually try the dance itself ;-D
Agreed. There was a thread earlier either here or at Spawny’s Place where someone posted a video of folks of all ages dancing to the polka. Lots of touching in a safe way. That video made me realize for the first time that that kind of touching could help some of the lost boys come to understand what a woman feels like and smells like, up close and personal, in a safe manner – without the thought of progressing to sexual activity creating tension and getting in the way.
One of the young ladies that my wife and I have been helping keep afloat for the last six years or so since her mother blew up the family has attracted the attention of a young man (she 22, he 29) who is teaching Israeli dance all over the world. He has four or five “sessions” per year here in the San Fernando Valley that are very well attended. I’m toying with the idea of approaching him with the comment that b.g. made at the beginning of this post and seeing if he would be interested in a side project of polka-like dancing for the young folks – to give them an opportunity to hold each other in a neutral setting. And then the thought intrudes that pulling lots of young folks together is just inviting trouble of the sort that guns and drugs and alcohol and jealous boyfriends can bring. So I don’t know that the dances of old are doable in today’s environment, what with the resources it would take to keep such gatherings safe for the kids.
Yeah she is one of 3 semi regularly scheduled trolls
@Ame – I did not intend my post to cast shade on SAHMs.
thank you, Richard. *sometimes* it seems as you might be coming across that way … yet that contradicts what i’ve come to know of you through the internet, which, obviously, is not a complete picture … so i thought i’d take a moment to clarify.
when i was in therapy all those years ago, my counselor told me that i had become the Bridge in my family lineage … creating a new path from the generations of abuse and those who did not follow Jesus to one where following Jesus, honoring God, and loving and nurturing our children is the new ‘norm.’ he said that when a person becomes the Bridge in their family lineage, that their life becomes a sacrifice, preventing them from fulfilling all of their potential in all other areas of their lives.
i think life is like that. i’ve realized that most people are so multi-talented and capable of many different things that it’s difficult to choose, sometimes, what we want and/or should do with our lives. however, saying yes to one or a few things always means saying no to many things … just like saying yes to one man when a woman gets married means saying no to every other man now and forever as long as her husband is alive.
which totally punches holes in the theory, “You can be anything you want if you just work hard enough.” sometimes there are too many things we’d be good or even great at, but we cannot do them all. we have to choose.
rather than raising my daughters believing that lie, i raised them knowing that they can be and do anything God has created and designed them to do and be and become. while they are capable of many things, choosing to follow Jesus the Christ and follow the path He has laid out for them is the ultimate best for their lives.
i think you point, Richard, if i understand you correctly now, also falls into, “For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required” Luke 12:48. this is relative, of course, but i tell my daughters that God is not going to waste all the hell they’ve been through or all the very hard work they’re doing recovering from all of that hell … that God has a unique purpose for their lives, and He is going to use all of this to fulfill His purposes for their lives for their good and His glory … for “And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28.
Richard
I think it might depend upon the area chosen, it probably should be one with smaller communities. The dances we enjoyed the most were basically villages with the dances organized by female volunteers basically raising funds for the local firemen or the like. Most were also potlucks or sandwiches raised by tickets plus the permit to sell liquor.
There is a new post at Spawny’s
https://spawnyspace.wordpress.com/2019/05/14/not-so-much-a-strike/
A comment, not mine, from Dalrocks
“A 32-year-old single girl has nothing to offer a marriage-minded man of that same age. He’s already learned how to live without her, and she cannot offer him children. Further, she’ll have all the manners of an outside cat brought indoors – and she’ll have been reinforced in the belief that, because of magic girl powers, her aberrant quirks are normative behaviors. She simply can’t be trained to be a wife.”
Agree with all his points. Convince me otherwise.
By 32 Mrs had been married to me for 8 years, had two children, moved twice with me and took care of both her mother and grandmother in a 4 generation house.
Me by contrast had gone from a lowly intern making 20k to a project manager leading 30 people making over 80k in 1995 dollars. I had over 50k in the bank plus a mortgage half paid off.
How does a career woman, with college debt and a less than 50% chance of producing healthy kids (look up downs and other defect rates plus fertility rates) compare to that??
P.s. given I had enough money to support two kids under three and a SAHM the woman’s career means exactly dick squat to my attraction. Woopie you have a 50k job, just like the thirty people I manage!!
Seriously!
By 42 my house on the lake was paid off, I was making well into 6 figures and I had four managers and over 100 staff, virtually all female under me, all career women.
How exactly would ms career gal stand out from the hundred women I work with every day plus the dozens of clients?
How?
Not being an asshole. How exactly would you get my attention? You found a good, successful, financially independent guy. Make your pitch.
On a lighter note, my herd.
@horseman said: A 32-year-old … cannot offer him children
Actually, she can offer him one or two, maybe three. If they start right in when they marry, with her at 32 or 33 when she gets pregnant, she can have three that are three years apart by the time she is 40 or 41.. The rates of chromosomal abnormalities are still pretty low through the early 40s, but her body is subject to more health problems the older she is when she is pregnant. But it is doable for many women.
@horseman – what do you do with your horses? Ride? Show? Pull plows? Good looking bunch of horses.
@ horseman — maybe bring you cookies?
Actually, she can offer him one or two, maybe three.
I know a family with 16 children and half of them were born after the mother was 34. All of them normal. I know a family of five and all of them were born after she turned 35, all normal.
Lillian Moller Gilbreth, the real “Cheaper by the Dozen” mother, was born in 1878. Only two of her subsequent 12 children were born when she was under 30. Three of them were born in her forties.
I think it’s better to be a young mother for a lot of reasons, but 32 is not too old for children by a long shot….it’s not only not impossible, it’s not even unusual.
How many men want kids on the first date? To commit to that. So I assume 1 year to get engaged, one to marry, one to get pregnant so 35 for first kid.
At 35 fertility is at 65% and downs is at 1 in 400 plus other defects.
Yes its possible but under 50% to have two healthy kids starting at 35.
And the second question. I know literally hundreds of 32-35 year old women. So do you all. How does one stand out?
Oh and with obesity at 66% that means 2 of 3 are out before they leave the gate. Men might have sex with a heavy girl but marry them? Why? This IS a successful guy with options we are taslking about.
Rich
The brown spotted is my endurance cross country. The biggest white is my wifes trail horse retired. The two younger whites are our new trail horses, both also pull carriages. The big brown just looks pretty, retired at 8 due to sn injury.
@horseman – thanks.
fwiw – i was 33 and 35 when my daughters were born.
though i married at 21, we waited for two main reasons:
1. i wanted to forgive my mother before i became a mother b/c i didn’t want to carry that forward. it took me ten years to forgive her for all the crap she did.
2. infertility – that delayed about 17? months (can’t remember exactly now).
all things considered equal, though, i wish i’d had my kids in my twenties. however, since life is not fair, just, or equal, i’m simply so grateful i could have children and have my two daughters.
(i actually only wanted one child all my life, but when Oldest was about fifteen months old, we knew she needed a sibling.)
Despite all, sometimes loves works ;-D:
I had my kids pretty young, but not super young. Last was born when I was 31.
Always interesting though, how life works. The friend above I mentioned with 5 kids seemed pretty old to me at the time I left that base…and she had just had the second child then. Her husband had to medically retire a year later (colon cancer). He survived, and after that they had three more kids. She just had her last (presumably) and she’s about my age. For me, I thought the last pregnancy was hard enough but good on ’em, it’s a beautiful family.
b.g. – never heard of them. Now I have. Went and found some of their videos. Lotta estrogen flowing there. Good music. Thanks for the intro. Someone commented that the group seems to have disappeared in 2016. Not so. Just a bit of morphing form as everybody gets older.
https://worldfest.net/paige-anderson-and-the-fearless-kin/
Nevermind. The date in the upper right-hand corner of my link says 2019. I thought that was when the video was from, but it is from 2014. There is a video of the same group singing together in August of 2017. But by the fall of 2018, lead singer Paige Anderson had moved out of bluegrass and into something else. You can find Paige on YouTube singing grown-up songs with Z Berg (daughter of a former Geffen Records A&R guy) Estrogen will have its way, I guess. Not always in a pretty-to-look-at direction (don’t think that anybody has ever described the playing out of feral lust as pretty-to-look-at.)
Richard
What shame, I suspect she would have had quite future in bluegrass.
LOL, clearly missing a couple of “a”s ;-D
@b.g. said: I suspect she would have had quite future in bluegrass.
And maybe she still will. After the age of thirty or so. Right now, she’s doing the expected thing. She’s “finding herself”. Never mind that she already had developed a pretty good “self” already. O, wait … that was her parents that had developed that pretty good “self” for her.
Unfortunately, those selfs crafted by parents have to be replaced by a self developed by the person if they are to have any integrated sense of self as an adult. This usually takes place in the early twenties, but sometimes not until later.
That is one of the reasons that young folks should not be put up on a pedestal / stage in front of the world. Because the whole world (or a microcosm of it) will be there to see the turmoil that most kids go through when they replace “believing” because their parents believed with “believing” because they themselves choose to believe. And many end up choosing to believe something different than their parents believed. The Jonas Brothers, Justin Beiber, Katy Perry, Michael and Lisa Gungor, and Carlton Pearson are good examples of very public pivots away from their parents beliefs. Wikipedia may be your friend if you don’t know their stories and are interested. Seems that Paige Anderson is another one to add to the list – except that, like some of the others, her story is still unfolding. Won’t know how they all turn out for a few more years. But, by then, they will all be damaged goods (according to some standard), forced to create some sort of useful life outside of the Garden of “home”. Just like the rest of us.
I do kind of like Skin and Bones that I linked to above. The two girls have other videos, but I thought this was the best of what I found.
Talking about the age of the mother. My wife had all 4 kids by the time she was 33. At that point her body could not handle anymore C-sections. So we were done.
As far as I know the only issues my kids have is; their perants have no idea what they are doing. 🙂
Richard
It was the loss of innocence that bothered me, one cannot get that back..
@b.g. – I agree.
At about the 1:00 minute mark, the camera strays slightly to the right to show Paige (I think) and someone singing on the same mic that looks like Paige’s sister maybe. If so, then loss of innocence times two.
https://www.conceivehelp.com/v/QW74QfSvvtU/Z-Berg-All-out-of-Tears
goFigure – As far as I know the only issues my kids have is; their perants have no idea what they are doing.
ain’t that the truth for all of us 🙂
Not sure if this thread is dead or Notes is dead. Wouldn’t blame Bloom a bit … actually give her props for keeping it up as long as she has. But wanted to offer an observation. On life.
Been listening to some old Beatles tonight. Rubber Soul. Great album. Listen to it again. Closely. God has been whispering to us to shut it down, thru music, for decades. Just as Satan has. Most listen to Satan. But God is there as well … listen to Drive My Car … and its warnings on hypergamy. The warnings have been there. Why the hell didn’t we listen ? Why were women given the right to vote … when they demanded a tall, dark, handsome Driver for her car … when she doesn’t even have one. No car, but she’s got hypergamy since she’s got a vagina. That’s it. That’s all she’s got.
Trust me. Go back in time and listen to Rubber Soul … do you see it in an entirely different light ?
Mega – were you listening backwards?
The Beatles: “Drive my car”, 1965.
Summary: Girl … I have a vagina. No job. No money. No car. Expects to be a movie star and make millions, because she has a vagina. MEN GET IN LINE TO KISS MY ASS AND IT STARTS BY DRIVING MY CAR.
Never understood this years ago. Wonder if Paul and John understood it as they were writing it. Hypergamy. She’s got a vagina. MEN LINE UP TO DRIVE A CAR SHE DOESN”T HAVE, FOR A CAREER SHE WILL NEVER HAVE. All for the promise of sex. Hypergamy: that’s what it sounds like … “Baby you can drive my car”
The warning signs were there all along …
Lyrics
Asked a girl what she wanted to be
She said “Baby, can’t you see
I wanna be famous, a star on the screen
But you can do something in between”
Baby you can drive my car
Yes I’m gonna be a star
Baby you can drive my car
And maybe I love you
I told a girl that my prospects were good
And she said “Baby, it’s understood
Working for peanuts is all very fine
But I can show you a better time”
Baby you can drive my car
Yes I’m gonna be a star
Baby you can drive my car
And maybe I love you
Beep beep’m beep beep yeah
Baby you can drive my car
Yes I’m gonna be a star
Baby you can drive my car
And maybe I love you
I told that girl I can start right away
And she said, “Listen baby I got something to say
I got no car and it’s breaking my heart
But I’ve found a driver and that’s a start”
Baby you can drive my car
Yes I’m gonna be a star
Baby you can drive my car
And maybe I love you
Beep beep’m beep beep yeah
Beep beep’m beep beep yeah
I usually listen to the music. Rarely listen to the words.
Mega – you’ve changed my life.
Until a moment ago, I’ve always thought it was the guy telling the girl that she could drive his car (with the price for driving being understood).
Hi an stimulatingsacrifice
Fair-minded click
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LN3y_4if4lgUJpVoEn6LIeNFViX9VCG3/preview
I am still around, been busy w work and kiddos. A whole lot of nothing sauce came from my college friend’s nutty online girlfriend. Don’t talk with him much but he seems to be rethinking single life after dipping a toe in the water. Smart. Lots of crazies out there!
Glad to hear that, and happy news for Stephanie, plus hope for Ame. Things are positive here, a little doe showed up with an even tinier pair of fawns to eat the roses, the baby bunnies are all over the place, and the Labrador Deceiver knows that every last one of them must all be killed ;-D
BG – you always draw me into your world; i love that.
plus hope for Ame
thank you 🙂
i think if he hadn’t helped the family member first, i would have discounted his apology, even with the tears. a family member had a need that i knew he could meet. and he’s always spouting that he’s there ‘to help.’ but the stories of reality haven’t matched with his words. so i decided to call him on it and texted him, told him the need, told him he needed to meet it with no questions asked and no comments or commentary at all. i had nothing to lose myself, but i was still absolutely shocked when he did it – no questions asked, no comments, no commentary. then there was another thing that came up, so i texted him and told him he should meet that, too. and i was stunned. he did it – no questions asked, no comments, no commentary. only my word that there was a need. the third time he initiated on his own.
the second thing he did before he apologized that gave credibility to him for me, personally, was that he stood with me and against my sister when talking about my Aspie-Girl. my sister has not been blatantly outspoken, necessarily, that she disagrees with how i’ve raised her, but she also has not hidden it. our dad staunchly and vehemently took my side in her presence. i.was.shocked b/c he doesn’t like to rock the boat – he says what people want to hear, and he has more reason to keep her happy than he does me.
we probably had maybe an hour alone together, and he made a point to create the conversation to apologize. i.was.shocked. when i walked with him into the airport and waited with him in the security line, he, again, vehemently and staunchly supported me over both my sisters’ objections to how i’ve raised my Aspie-Girl. i was once again shocked. he never talks bad or negative about them, ever. but he did.
so … as i said at Spawnys, *VERY* guarded optimism. still … not something i ever, ever, ever in this lifetime expected to hear.
Ame
Be optimistic, people sometimes do change, and getting back with your Dad could help your daughters. I hope your diet is getting close to “Chinese soup” ;-D
And by the way, the Deceiver doesn’t usually kill anything except rats and squirrels. He catches baby bunnies and quail, but he gives them to me unless another dog is trying to steal it. He has a very gentle mouth.
Nicce share